I'm new here, but looking forward to hopefully discovering more DIY nutcases like myself. I've always got some odd project going on, whether it's in-car line arrays, or scratch-built rotary-servo subwoofers... I'm interested in "non-standard" or alternative truly hi-fi technologies. Hell, I'd like to seek out a pair of Plasma tweets to audition of anyone had one that were reasonably near me... 😀 But this isn't about plasma tweeters.
I've seen web pages on DIY electrostats before, but never had truly entertained the thought of trying to build my own... to be honest my listening in the home is less critical to me, as I'm always moving around, working on something, I don't sit still.
This past week, I listened to a set of Martin Logan Clarity electrostats that have convinced me that possibly that is the set of speakers destined for my home.
I say this because remarkably, no matter where I moved about in the room, the tonality and clarity were virtually unchanged, really something to experience.
And interestingly, that's not to say they didn't image.
If you haven't heard the Clarities, I definitely recommend giving them a listen, and do as I did... really honestly remarkable.
For $2700 I thought they were actually a good deal (and that says something, since I wouldn't pay $2700 for a set of home speakers).
But at any rate, I was surprised at the detail that the electrostats could yield, truly shocked at the "room filling" sound, and I'm curious about possibly building my own set.
Has anyone around here built their own electrostats?
Do you have any comments regarding the cost, special skills or tools required, any notable experiences you faced during the construction, or use of the electrostats?
Any comments on the fidelity of the DIY electrostats compared to manufactured electrostats like the Martin Logans?
I've seen web pages on DIY electrostats before, but never had truly entertained the thought of trying to build my own... to be honest my listening in the home is less critical to me, as I'm always moving around, working on something, I don't sit still.
This past week, I listened to a set of Martin Logan Clarity electrostats that have convinced me that possibly that is the set of speakers destined for my home.
I say this because remarkably, no matter where I moved about in the room, the tonality and clarity were virtually unchanged, really something to experience.
And interestingly, that's not to say they didn't image.
If you haven't heard the Clarities, I definitely recommend giving them a listen, and do as I did... really honestly remarkable.
For $2700 I thought they were actually a good deal (and that says something, since I wouldn't pay $2700 for a set of home speakers).
But at any rate, I was surprised at the detail that the electrostats could yield, truly shocked at the "room filling" sound, and I'm curious about possibly building my own set.
Has anyone around here built their own electrostats?
Do you have any comments regarding the cost, special skills or tools required, any notable experiences you faced during the construction, or use of the electrostats?
Any comments on the fidelity of the DIY electrostats compared to manufactured electrostats like the Martin Logans?
I haven't, but a colleague of mine is busy building DIY electrostatics of his own design. Some of the mistakes he made and a lot of the lengthy calculations he made would have been unnecessary if he had only read
Peter J. Baxandall, “Electrostatic loudspeakers”, chapter 3 of John Borwick (editor), Loudspeaker and headphone handbook, Focal Press, Oxford, 1997, ISBN 0-240-51371-1
before starting. If you want to understand ESL theory, you should definitely read Baxandall's chapter.
Besides,
Roger R. Sanders, The electrostatic design cookbook, 1995, ISBN 1-882580-00-1
contains lots of practical tips on do-it-yourself ESL construction. Almost everything Sanders writes about theoretical matters is plain wrong, but he gives very valuable information about practical things like what types of glue stick to mylar.
Peter J. Baxandall, “Electrostatic loudspeakers”, chapter 3 of John Borwick (editor), Loudspeaker and headphone handbook, Focal Press, Oxford, 1997, ISBN 0-240-51371-1
before starting. If you want to understand ESL theory, you should definitely read Baxandall's chapter.
Besides,
Roger R. Sanders, The electrostatic design cookbook, 1995, ISBN 1-882580-00-1
contains lots of practical tips on do-it-yourself ESL construction. Almost everything Sanders writes about theoretical matters is plain wrong, but he gives very valuable information about practical things like what types of glue stick to mylar.
I've done a rebuild, but not a scratch build. Mr. Diaphragm, that's me. Do check out the stuff that Sheldon Stokes has done; he built his from the ground up. And read everything that Peter Walker ever wrote- his patents can provide hours of informative enjoyment.
The best books are the following:
Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design and Construction
Ronald Wagner
ISBN: 0-9624-191-6-8
The Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design Cookbook
Roger R. Sanders
ISBN: 1-882580-00-1
For me the best book on the subject with 3 real working projects in the book including crossovers, electronics and other theory.
Also search the net for the following:
DIY ESL 184 by Geert Vijncke
DIY Matthew Ankers Electrostatic Loudspeaker web site.
Mark Rehorst Web site.
Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design and Construction
Ronald Wagner
ISBN: 0-9624-191-6-8
The Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design Cookbook
Roger R. Sanders
ISBN: 1-882580-00-1
For me the best book on the subject with 3 real working projects in the book including crossovers, electronics and other theory.
Also search the net for the following:
DIY ESL 184 by Geert Vijncke
DIY Matthew Ankers Electrostatic Loudspeaker web site.
Mark Rehorst Web site.
Thanks for the tips - I'll seek out those books at some point over this winter, and I'll keep those words regarding Sanders in mind as I'm reading. 😉
Just curious, as you mention "Sheldon Stokes" and "his patents"...
And I note that there are relatively few ESL manufacturers in the market, as there are relatively few servo-loudspeaker (not servo feedback loudspeaker) manufacturers on the market...
Is Sheldon Stokes to Electrostatics what Tom Danley is to Servo-motor loudspeakers?
I may first venture down an easier road...
I'm pondering if much of the "room-filling" qualities of the Electrostats are due to their functional dipole behavior.
I've got four Bohlender Graebner Neo3PDR's that I've really never done anything with... they might make a fun and easy project for my office here, something relatively small to listen to in here...
Trying to approach them scientifically, so I'm not left later trying to figure out exactly why I did or didn't like the sound of them. 😎
Just curious, as you mention "Sheldon Stokes" and "his patents"...
And I note that there are relatively few ESL manufacturers in the market, as there are relatively few servo-loudspeaker (not servo feedback loudspeaker) manufacturers on the market...
Is Sheldon Stokes to Electrostatics what Tom Danley is to Servo-motor loudspeakers?
I may first venture down an easier road...
I'm pondering if much of the "room-filling" qualities of the Electrostats are due to their functional dipole behavior.
I've got four Bohlender Graebner Neo3PDR's that I've really never done anything with... they might make a fun and easy project for my office here, something relatively small to listen to in here...
Trying to approach them scientifically, so I'm not left later trying to figure out exactly why I did or didn't like the sound of them. 😎
The patents I was talking about were Peter Walker's. There is no better source- his Quads are still the standard by which people judge ESLs.
Sheldon Stokes, a diyAudio member, did a very nice DIY design and published details on his web site. A few minutes with google will turn it up.
Sheldon Stokes, a diyAudio member, did a very nice DIY design and published details on his web site. A few minutes with google will turn it up.
The Quads have a very nice Patent and idea behind them but are not at all suited for DIY. It´s too complex. People have been making simple designs that work very good.
Here you can find about all the info you need: the esl circuit.
I have built my own ESL's from scratch and am very pleased with them.
In the Netherlands we have a small but active community of Esl builders (esl club, It is all in dutch I'm afraid)
My latest project has been a pair of Valve monoblocks to power the speakers directly, bypassing the esl's stepup transformer.
I have built my own ESL's from scratch and am very pleased with them.
In the Netherlands we have a small but active community of Esl builders (esl club, It is all in dutch I'm afraid)
My latest project has been a pair of Valve monoblocks to power the speakers directly, bypassing the esl's stepup transformer.
Oh, sorry.. I quoted the wrong name. 
It doesn't sound like anyone owns "all the patents" though, that would effectively lock up the concept of producing electrostats...
...which is essentially what Tom Danley of ServoDrive (www.servodrive.com) has the luxury of with his all-encompassing patents, which essentially cover the production of any servo-motor powered loudspeaker. 😉
I don't have anywhere to audition Quads around here...
...but I'm actually flying out EARLY tomorrow morning to Las Vegas, for the annual Consumer Electronics Show (CES) for 4 days.
I'll hunt them down, believe me. 😀
(and any other unique reproduction technology, for that matter)
And thank you Peterr, I have a friend who is of Dutch descent, his wealthy parents actually just retired early and moved back.
Possibly (unfortunately more slim-to-none, as I never really see him 🙁) I could talk him into sitting down with me to look that site over...
...I don't know though, sounds impractical.
But your first link looks great, thank you very much!
It doesn't sound like anyone owns "all the patents" though, that would effectively lock up the concept of producing electrostats...
...which is essentially what Tom Danley of ServoDrive (www.servodrive.com) has the luxury of with his all-encompassing patents, which essentially cover the production of any servo-motor powered loudspeaker. 😉
I don't have anywhere to audition Quads around here...
...but I'm actually flying out EARLY tomorrow morning to Las Vegas, for the annual Consumer Electronics Show (CES) for 4 days.
I'll hunt them down, believe me. 😀
(and any other unique reproduction technology, for that matter)
And thank you Peterr, I have a friend who is of Dutch descent, his wealthy parents actually just retired early and moved back.
Possibly (unfortunately more slim-to-none, as I never really see him 🙁) I could talk him into sitting down with me to look that site over...
...I don't know though, sounds impractical.
But your first link looks great, thank you very much!
QUAD has some very important patents on electrostatic loudspeakers, but most of them are over 20 years (over 23 years for the Americans) old and therefore expired.
Thanks guys, this is helpful.
I just took advantage of a nice special on Amazon.com...
They had a package deal on both books: Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design and Construction (Ronald Wagner) and The Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design Cookbook (Roger R. Sanders) for under $55 together. 😎
I just got back from the CES show, and unfortunately in all my running around Alexis Park, I only had a limited time to do some listening in Quad's room... and there were some french guys in there with some unfortunately disappointing music they were auditioning... simply sounded like monks chanting... it wasn't dynamic at all, had no real range... and maybe if I were familiar with the recording could have made some determination about whether that particular range sounded "real" or not... but it was recorded as if in a cave at any rate. Urg.
They did later put on something a little more normal... a french female pop singer, and they did sound nice, but I again wasn't familiar with the recording.
Honestly though, in comparison to the Martin Logan Clarity, I think I straight-up prefer the sound of the Clarity. A tribute to an electrostat that's positioned as an entry-level model, with a price tag under $2700.
I notice that Martin Logan themselves have really been touting the Clarity model themselves, as an overacheiver.
Definitely give that little set a listen when you get a chance.
I also liked Final Sound's electrostats...
I heard them as they were sharing a room with Adire Audio - and I license Adire's XBL^2 technology... Adire does Final Sound's subwoofers and bass cabinets.
Their full-size stero panels sounded amazing, but a $6,000 price tag is well beyond me, and I still liked the sound of the Clarities with respect to price.
But Final Sound also had a very nifty compact set of electrostatic panels, that could be hung on a wall (these were suspended on stands), with the transformer and other goodies tucked away remotely, with a separate powered subwoofer, the whole package for under $1,000.
That is a deal, particularly for small rooms.
Here's an article about them actually: http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/press/pr2533.html
As room size is a factor in determining panel size, I'm intrigued if small electrostats could be built and positioned on the leading edge of a car door panel (angled to offer roughly equalized pathlengths to your ear along it's length) so that it were decently far enough away (almost in the kick panel).. if the small panels could generate satisfying levels of output... using a 6.5" midbass driver in a typical stock door location to help them out on the low end.
Even if not, I've never seen a dipole done in a car, could be a panel suspended in that same way, and that could help out with some of the issues related to seating offset...
Intriguing anyway.
Maybe I'll play with at least the latter with a set of cheap drivers, see what can be done. 😉
Anyone else have any additional resources or books they would recommend?
Thanks again! 🙂
I just took advantage of a nice special on Amazon.com...
They had a package deal on both books: Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design and Construction (Ronald Wagner) and The Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design Cookbook (Roger R. Sanders) for under $55 together. 😎
I just got back from the CES show, and unfortunately in all my running around Alexis Park, I only had a limited time to do some listening in Quad's room... and there were some french guys in there with some unfortunately disappointing music they were auditioning... simply sounded like monks chanting... it wasn't dynamic at all, had no real range... and maybe if I were familiar with the recording could have made some determination about whether that particular range sounded "real" or not... but it was recorded as if in a cave at any rate. Urg.
They did later put on something a little more normal... a french female pop singer, and they did sound nice, but I again wasn't familiar with the recording.
Honestly though, in comparison to the Martin Logan Clarity, I think I straight-up prefer the sound of the Clarity. A tribute to an electrostat that's positioned as an entry-level model, with a price tag under $2700.
I notice that Martin Logan themselves have really been touting the Clarity model themselves, as an overacheiver.
Definitely give that little set a listen when you get a chance.
I also liked Final Sound's electrostats...
I heard them as they were sharing a room with Adire Audio - and I license Adire's XBL^2 technology... Adire does Final Sound's subwoofers and bass cabinets.
Their full-size stero panels sounded amazing, but a $6,000 price tag is well beyond me, and I still liked the sound of the Clarities with respect to price.
But Final Sound also had a very nifty compact set of electrostatic panels, that could be hung on a wall (these were suspended on stands), with the transformer and other goodies tucked away remotely, with a separate powered subwoofer, the whole package for under $1,000.
That is a deal, particularly for small rooms.
Here's an article about them actually: http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/press/pr2533.html
As room size is a factor in determining panel size, I'm intrigued if small electrostats could be built and positioned on the leading edge of a car door panel (angled to offer roughly equalized pathlengths to your ear along it's length) so that it were decently far enough away (almost in the kick panel).. if the small panels could generate satisfying levels of output... using a 6.5" midbass driver in a typical stock door location to help them out on the low end.
Even if not, I've never seen a dipole done in a car, could be a panel suspended in that same way, and that could help out with some of the issues related to seating offset...
Intriguing anyway.
Maybe I'll play with at least the latter with a set of cheap drivers, see what can be done. 😉
Anyone else have any additional resources or books they would recommend?
Thanks again! 🙂
No Sheldon?
I'm suprised Sheldon Stokes didn't weigh on this thread. His site is very informative: http://quadesl.com/
He even shows his assembly process step by step.
He recommended ER Audio as a good resource as well.
I'm suprised Sheldon Stokes didn't weigh on this thread. His site is very informative: http://quadesl.com/
He even shows his assembly process step by step.
He recommended ER Audio as a good resource as well.
From Perth...........
A friend of mine has a pair and they really are excellent.
I also hear Rod is a good bloke.
Eric.
ultrachrome said:
A friend of mine has a pair and they really are excellent.
I also hear Rod is a good bloke.
Eric.
geolemon, have you checked this finnish guy and his work?
http://www.ele.tut.fi/~artoko/audio/speakers/hybrid.html
BTW: I have a pair of ML SL3 and I'm quite pleased with them. Maybe the bass is a little bit soft, not a horse kick in the stomach exactly.
http://www.ele.tut.fi/~artoko/audio/speakers/hybrid.html
BTW: I have a pair of ML SL3 and I'm quite pleased with them. Maybe the bass is a little bit soft, not a horse kick in the stomach exactly.
ER Audio
Kudos to these guys for recognizing the advantages of PTF diaphragm coatings over rubbed graphite.
Kudos to these guys for recognizing the advantages of PTF diaphragm coatings over rubbed graphite.
Does anyone have any comment on how difficult it might be to make a curved-panel electrostat similar to the Martin Logans?
I'm also growing increasingly curious as to how the ML's could be so seemingly omnidirectional - as I mentioned before, I was amazed at how as I moved around the room, the tonality hardly changed...
...a couple people have suggested that's simply a property of a dipole loudspeaker (I've never heard a traditional dipole, only the Magnepans and several electrostats now... while I know there were some traditional dipoles around CES, I somehow missed them all 🙁).
However, I note that on Sheldon Stokes website, he described his panels to be "like laser beams"... uber-directional!
Any thoughts on how the ML Clarities could be so omnidirectional?
That's really one of my primary goals, as I'm not very likely to be sitting in one place most often, as I am listening... I'm usually working on something, just moving about the room.
Any thoughts?
I'm also growing increasingly curious as to how the ML's could be so seemingly omnidirectional - as I mentioned before, I was amazed at how as I moved around the room, the tonality hardly changed...
...a couple people have suggested that's simply a property of a dipole loudspeaker (I've never heard a traditional dipole, only the Magnepans and several electrostats now... while I know there were some traditional dipoles around CES, I somehow missed them all 🙁).
However, I note that on Sheldon Stokes website, he described his panels to be "like laser beams"... uber-directional!
Any thoughts on how the ML Clarities could be so omnidirectional?
That's really one of my primary goals, as I'm not very likely to be sitting in one place most often, as I am listening... I'm usually working on something, just moving about the room.
Any thoughts?
This curved panel is very good for the sound. You won't get so focused sound image. like the Magnepan for instance.geolemon said:
I'll guess the trick (which is secret) is to bend these two plates and have good fixtures for that.
Hi all,
I have only bought transformers so far for my project.
In the link I'll post I see some aluminum sheet pans with perforations on 60% on the surface,
http://www.kbacoustics.com/scans/bestpcb.jpg
I need to keep my project a bit larger than bookshelf sized speakers. The sheet pans above would be perfect for me.
From what I've read, I don't believe the panels I make need be really huge, so I hope it turns out as a working creation!
On another topic, for large panels, what is needed to stretch the diaphram on something 3' wide and 6' tall? I think about a wood frame to stretch on that has 2 air cylinders on each corner to push with equal pressure...
Is it all important to get both panel's diaphram stretched to the same tension?
Thanks millions for the forum,
GH
I have only bought transformers so far for my project.
In the link I'll post I see some aluminum sheet pans with perforations on 60% on the surface,
http://www.kbacoustics.com/scans/bestpcb.jpg
I need to keep my project a bit larger than bookshelf sized speakers. The sheet pans above would be perfect for me.
From what I've read, I don't believe the panels I make need be really huge, so I hope it turns out as a working creation!
On another topic, for large panels, what is needed to stretch the diaphram on something 3' wide and 6' tall? I think about a wood frame to stretch on that has 2 air cylinders on each corner to push with equal pressure...
Is it all important to get both panel's diaphram stretched to the same tension?
Thanks millions for the forum,
GH
Personally, I ordered a few books suggested in this thread... I still haven't received one of them, if you can believe that... 🙄
But, time for some reading.
In the meantime, since I liked the sound of the Martin Logan Clarity so much, I think I'm going to play around with building a small dipole... since that intrigues me too, and I haven't done those yet either.
I've been working to select 2" fullrange speakers...
I've bought a set of Aura Cougars, Hi-Vi A2S, Hi-Vi B2S, Tang Band 2" fullranges, and some Onkyo ones for fun...
But I'm not really happy with any of them
CSS sells a Tang Band 3" that they use as a tweet in one of their project kits, and as a solo fullrange driver in another kit... I want to try that out.
But at any rate, I'm looking for a small fullrange that'll reach decently low at moderate volumes..
I want to do a 9x9 array on each side, with the center three facing forward, and the outer banks of three angled out, maybe 15 degrees or something like that...
See if I can simulate some of what that Martin Logan is doing with a non-ESL dipole. 🙂
After I'm done reading and absorbing, I'm going to move onto a DIY ESL set though.... that's the ultimate goal. 😎
But, time for some reading.
In the meantime, since I liked the sound of the Martin Logan Clarity so much, I think I'm going to play around with building a small dipole... since that intrigues me too, and I haven't done those yet either.
I've been working to select 2" fullrange speakers...
I've bought a set of Aura Cougars, Hi-Vi A2S, Hi-Vi B2S, Tang Band 2" fullranges, and some Onkyo ones for fun...
But I'm not really happy with any of them
CSS sells a Tang Band 3" that they use as a tweet in one of their project kits, and as a solo fullrange driver in another kit... I want to try that out.
But at any rate, I'm looking for a small fullrange that'll reach decently low at moderate volumes..
I want to do a 9x9 array on each side, with the center three facing forward, and the outer banks of three angled out, maybe 15 degrees or something like that...
See if I can simulate some of what that Martin Logan is doing with a non-ESL dipole. 🙂
After I'm done reading and absorbing, I'm going to move onto a DIY ESL set though.... that's the ultimate goal. 😎
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