Another Super Scooper Build Thread

[buildafriend]

I am selecting some 18" subs for my scoopers and I am thinking perhaps Celestion FTR18-4080F's paired with Bryston 7B's. I know that's a lot of money in amps but they are the only ones I trust so much from my recording background and I'm not very well versed in selecting LF drivers. I'm still learning what is "high end" for LF driver brands other than TAD and Celestion and what amps are more pro or consumer grade.

Bryston 7B
Description: Solid-state monoblock amplifier. Output power: 600W continuous into 8 ohms (27.8dBW), 900W into 4 ohms (26.6dBW). Gain select and sensitivity: 29dB (2.3V in = 600W into 8 ohms), 1V setting; 23dB (4.6V in = 600W into 8 ohms), 2V setting. Frequency response: not specified.

4080F
Nominal diameter 457mm/18in
Power rating 600Wrms
Continuous power rating 1200W
EIA power rating 800W
Nominal impedance 8Ω
Sensitivity 97dB
Frequency range 30-3,000Hz
Voice coil diameter 100mm/4in
Chassis type Cast Aluminium

What do you think? Any suggestions?

 

[4real]

Why spend a least 10 times as much on the amp vs the driver? Seems like a whole lot of wasted money for a bit of trust.

What are your goals here? What is the intended use? Bandwidth needed? Why did you choose that driver? Did you simulate it? Or do you just trust that it will be fine ?

 

[chris661]

Yeah, I wouldn't use the Bryston for PA use. Too much weight, not enough performance.
Crown Macrotechs (widely known as very heavy) are better in that regard.

My preference for portable speaker systems is Powersoft, although the Behringer NX series is good if you need value for money.

Chris

 

[buildafriend]

Why spend at least 10 times as much on the amp vs the driver? Seems like a whole lot of wasted money for a bit of trust.

What are your goals here? What is the intended use? Bandwidth needed? Why did you choose that driver? Did you simulate it? Or do you just trust that it will be fine ?

Why spend at least 10 times as much on the amp vs the driver? Seems like a whole lot of wasted money for a bit of trust.
I mean, the Bryston amps I've used in studios my whole life have been very clear and reliable. That said, I'm definitely soul searching for my first rear loaded horn / speaker / amp combo and it's my first PA speaker build. I made little Auratone type things when I was kid but that was way less advanced.

What are your goals here?
To select an amplifier and speaker combo for my 18" Super Scooper build

What is the intended use?
They will be used for NYC techno parties in lofts and warehouses that are roughly 2k sqft

Bandwidth needed?
35hz to 120hz
Also, I'm a fan of higher SPLs from the low end

Did you simulate it?
I would love to simulate it but I'm pretty new to hornresp and could use some hand holding with my first sims

Do you just trust that it will be fine
Touche, halp! halp!

 

[buildafriend]

Yeah, I wouldn't use the Bryston for PA use. Too much weight, not enough performance.
Crown Macrotechs (widely known as very heavy) are better in that regard.

My preference for portable speaker systems is Powersoft, although the Behringer NX series is good if you need value for money.

Chris

Just checked out your site Chris, it looks nice. I also own a little repair business and I'm moving into live sound systems. I started with recording studio gear building and servicing.

Crown Marotechs.. by heavy do you mean earth mass ( weight ) or SPL? On the street those terms are sometimes confused. I'll have a look!

How does this baby boy look to ya'll? I wish it had NL4 but the power for the price ratio is good. Maybe recap it.
https://www.ebay.com/i/362660278779...77chM0zhq7LUWIxHdqOp-Zl6zF7YVUJxoCdzUQAvD_BwE

Also gonna check out Powersoft and Behringer NX series. Thank you!

 

[chris661]

Old Macrotechs have a name for both "heavy sound" as well as physical weight. The newer ones (with an "i" at the end) are also good amps, but aren't seen so often on the street, so they don't have the same reputation there.

I actually used an MA5002VZ for a while as part of my home HiFi. Overkill on power, but it sounded very good.

Chris

PS - Thanks for taking a look

 

[4real]

They will be used for NYC techno parties in lofts and warehouses that are roughly 2k sqft

Okay, so actual PA usage, not home “hifi”. In that case I would buy an amplifier that is suited for that kind of punishment.

35hz to 120hz
Also, I'm a fan of higher SPLs from the low end

Sounds like you might also want to look into a tapped horn. They are even more efficient for the size and will fit within the bandwidth window as well.

I would love to simulate it but I'm pretty new to hornresp and could use some hand holding with my first sims

Do you already have a possible design in mind? That would help with making some simulations. Also do you have any size and weight constraints? In case you’ll be lugging these things around, A neo magnet woofer will be beneficial as well. Driver options are various from Faital, BMS, 18sound, Eminence, B&C, Precision Devices and many more

 

[4real]

Here is some inspiration: BLOG-OONG: Sub Woofer - Scoop

 

[Brian Steele]

Here is some inspiration: BLOG-OONG: Sub Woofer - Scoop

I'm curious, but has anyone tried using those Hog Scoops flipped over, so the driver's at the bottom instead of at the top of the enclosure? It should help with cooling (I can't imagine that a hot driver's magnet in that small chamber is going to be happy) and eliminate the "floor bounce" effect (if it does affect these subwoofers of course).

Of course you'll need to have a proper grille on the driver to stop the occasional errant foot...

 

[conanski]

Why do you want to build a super scoop? Are you going for a particular look with the whole speaker system or are catering to a particular music genre? The thing with scoops is that they are almost as much instrument as speaker, they have a characteristic sound which is good for a classic caribbean but maybe not so much for other genres. The irony with scoops is that most actual Caribbean sound systems have moved on from scoops to other designs as the genre has evolved.
If any of that applies then I suggest you use one of the recommended drivers for the cab, go visit the Speakerplans site where the plans come from originally and search/ask for the driver recommendations.

As for amplifiers, Brystons are great for studio use but there are much better options available now, a single Yamaha P7000 will match the 7b pair in output at 1/4 the weight but even that is an obsolete design now, some of the new class D amps are much more powerful and a fraction of the weight again. On sub bass amp sound quality isn't usually an issue it's more about other performance parameters but that is something you should decide for yourself, IMO good bass performance is more about the quality of the product in general and not about what class of amplifier it is, so as with most things you get what you pay for.

 

[tonskulus]

I'm curious, but has anyone tried using those Hog Scoops flipped over, so the driver's at the bottom instead of at the top of the enclosure? It should help with cooling (I can't imagine that a hot driver's magnet in that small chamber is going to be happy) and eliminate the "floor bounce" effect (if it does affect these subwoofers of course).

Of course you'll need to have a proper grille on the driver to stop the occasional errant foot...

Week ago, I actually tested to flip drivers in my Hogs. It just reduced SPL, propably added some warmth to the sound and made things even slower.

Hog scoops, as almost any 18" scoops are only good for up to 80-90Hz so they need separate mid-bass sections.
However, Hog scoop in general sounds better than traditional scoop and has better low-end extension because of longer horn path. Overall HOG scoop has better sound quality and is better suited for many kinds of music - as a pure subwoofer.

If you need brutal low-freq rumble, Hog scoop can do it. Even a stack of 4 Hogs can create insane power alley effect - with proper drivers ofcourse.

For techno, hog as a stand-alone bass bin is not my choice because hard hitting bass is more important. Try something like RCF esw-1018, they kick *** and are easy to make! Very good compromise if low freq extension is not that important. We have one modified version of it (tuned lower).

Celestion FTR18-4080F does not look like a good driver for scoops. It has too weak motor. It may sound ok but for big SPL levels, forget it.
Proper Scoop driver has Qts <0.3, BL >25, VAS <250, as a general rule of thump. PD.1850 is a classic but there are many more options too.

 

[Brian Steele]

The irony with scoops is that most actual Caribbean sound systems have moved on from scoops to other designs as the genre has evolved.

I live in the Caribbean (in Grenada, to be specific). I still see a lot of scoops in use. Usually with 3-way tops that take over from about 80-120 Hz.

 

[Brian Steele]

Week ago, I actually tested to flip drivers in my Hogs. It just reduced SPL, propably added some warmth to the sound and made things even slower.

I meant flipping the entire box, not the driver, i.e. orienting it so that the driver was at the bottom, not the top, of the box.

 

[4real]

These should be of interest: Loudspeaker Database (please note that you can tweak the url to include searches on other parameters then the ui shows. In this case I added EBP of >120)

 

[buildafriend]

Tell me about Precision Devices loudspeakers please

What are general opinions and facts about this brand? Specifically with respect to the PD.1850 that is recommended for this project.

Datasheet
https://images.thomann.de/pics/prod/169183_specs.pdf

Hornresp
PrecisionDevices PD.1850-2

Sd=1164.16
Bl=30.99
Cms=107.0E-06
Rms=2.9
Mmd=192.3
Le=1.33
Re=5.22
Pmax=1600.0
Xmax=11.05
LossyLe=0

Cabinet Dimensions
Speakerplans.com

Thanks,
- JP

 

[GM]

Sounds like you might also want to look into a tapped horn. They are even more efficient for the size and will fit within the bandwidth window as well.

Hmm, did a quickie scoop and a basic TH of the same net Vb [~1233 L] and the scoop was the winner, but with only 6 mm Xmax = 150 W and a high Vas, not the right driver for the job.

Shaded = scoop

GM

 

[tonskulus]

HOG is actually a kind of tapped horn too except it's horn expansion is exponential. Tapped horn because the driver is in horn path. But it has also exponential horn expansion like real horn subwoofers so yes it sould be a bit more sensitive. Dangerous subwoofer it is and when properly driven will make some damage inside! It just needs good driver, heavy amplifier and some DSP/EQ work to keep it going. Not quite simple compared to typical reflex subwoofers because of some anomalies.

PD1850 is a traditional high power horn driver but kind of ancient nowadays. But yes it does the job having huge motor power and high EBP and nice Xmax too. Very good indeed but no comparsion when it comes to best NEO drivers.

Some ppl prefer Void V18-1000 over PD.1850, which is quite similar driver.

Here I'm testing RCF L18X400's in my hogs.
YouTube

 

[4real]

Hmm, did a quickie scoop and a basic TH of the same net Vb [~1233 L] and the scoop was the winner, but with only 6 mm Xmax = 150 W and a high Vas, not the right driver for the job.

HOG is actually a kind of tapped horn too except it's horn expansion is exponential. Tapped horn because the driver is in horn path.

Yeah, on second though I figured this as well. And it probably goes a bit lower because you put the woofer a bit further out in the path. So the exponential expansion gives it the different sound signature vs a tapped horn?

So buildafriend, why specifically a scoop?

 

[tonskulus]

Exponential expansion should give better efficiency/directivity (especially in stack of 4 or more) at least but yes, its a big enclosure.

TH18/118 tapped horn is the one I would like to compare with Hog. It seems to have similar low extension down to 30-35Hz.