414 16
right,
i used the 414 8 Ohms, so the values i gave are only valid for this driver. Keep in mind that you might need more attanuation for the tweeter if you use a 8 Ohm driver.
I'm not sure wether the autoformers in the link will do the job, with mine you can select the attunuation in three dB steps until max -15dB.
Has anybody experimented with a Le-Cleac 18dB crossover ?
Is the overall performance better than a "normal" 12 dB crossover ?
You can see the sim in the screenshot for 900Hz crossover ...
greets
right,
i used the 414 8 Ohms, so the values i gave are only valid for this driver. Keep in mind that you might need more attanuation for the tweeter if you use a 8 Ohm driver.
I'm not sure wether the autoformers in the link will do the job, with mine you can select the attunuation in three dB steps until max -15dB.
Has anybody experimented with a Le-Cleac 18dB crossover ?
Is the overall performance better than a "normal" 12 dB crossover ?
You can see the sim in the screenshot for 900Hz crossover ...
greets
Attachments
I'm using 3.9mH + 8.2uF for my 414z (16 Ohm) in 120lit BR. Xover point with HF driver is 1200Hz.
414 Crossover
Hello everyone. Thanks for the reply. Your infos really help. I did hear that 6db realy works well with the 414s. I am have been studying about zobel. But I have not figured out my LE yet. What is the best to do it? My 414ss are 16 ohms and I do not have any soflwares.
If you have ideas please let me know. I will be grateful.
Thank you.
Yaho!
Hello everyone. Thanks for the reply. Your infos really help. I did hear that 6db realy works well with the 414s. I am have been studying about zobel. But I have not figured out my LE yet. What is the best to do it? My 414ss are 16 ohms and I do not have any soflwares.
If you have ideas please let me know. I will be grateful.
Thank you.
Yaho!
Super nice "petite" Onkens, I have just recently redesigned the cross-overs in my Onken set up which is featured in another thread here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=930925#post930925
In the year or so since I "completed" these I have been nothing if not pleased with result.
A recent redesign of the cross-overs to correct an error I made in the originals has yielded significant improvements in resolution, detail, and measurable frequency response flatness. The woofers took a while to break in, but for ~8Wrms per channel I get pretty thunderous bass when it is called for, and it is very well controlled and quick. I got what I hoped for, and with some tweaking I'm sure yours will delight in every day use!
I owe GM, panomaniac, and bear a huge debt of gratitude for all of the support and encouragement they provided during my project.
Congrats!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=930925#post930925
In the year or so since I "completed" these I have been nothing if not pleased with result.
A recent redesign of the cross-overs to correct an error I made in the originals has yielded significant improvements in resolution, detail, and measurable frequency response flatness. The woofers took a while to break in, but for ~8Wrms per channel I get pretty thunderous bass when it is called for, and it is very well controlled and quick. I got what I hoped for, and with some tweaking I'm sure yours will delight in every day use!
I owe GM, panomaniac, and bear a huge debt of gratitude for all of the support and encouragement they provided during my project.
Congrats!
Tweaks
DUC985
I have tried 3rd order slopes, and didn't care for the result, however it was not the Le Cleac'h type. I think using his horn flare would be really interesting, as Vuci has done.
Since your horn is not baffle mounted, you have the ability to position it where it will integrate best with the 414. If the horn were fixed, the phase of the two drivers might have to be matched through the crossover, possibly with additional circuitry. Feel free to scoot the horn back and forth until the sound focuses. Reversing polarity on the hf horn may help, although it's about a toss up, since either way the driver phase will be rotated ~180 degrees.
Your autoformer with 3dB steps would offer more control. Nice addition. The link was just a low cost alternative. Some of the wall-mounted L-Pad types have a similar transformer.
Kevin
You seem accomplished in circuit design, so why not expand your horizons? My advice to anyone using small tube amps, as I do, but not exclusively, is to bi-amplify your system. This is not about quantity, believe me, but quality. Even a good SS on the bottom can sound very good, better than my tube gear, in low bass. Less bloat, better damping, I suppose. Maybe a N. Pass class A?
I'd try something else on the midrange horn, too, but that's just my bias.
I have heard the big JBL Hartsfield lenses such as yours, only writ large, and they sounded very good, but they are not universally admired.
http://www.classicaudiorepro.com/page4.html
I would also, at some point, try turning your onkens sideways. An experiment in integration of woofer to horn. May sound crazy but I think you may hear a difference. Center to center on your drivers is spread fairly wide, as is often true in these vintage type systems. Moving the horn closer may have some benefit. (1140 ft.sec/800Hz=1.425 ft or 17" center to center. Although largely ignored in many designs, it may help here).
Also, measuring bass indoors is tough. Wavelengths are large and the room affects everything -- 8 ft away and you are on another planet, measurement-wise. Try putting the boxes on their backs face up, if you can move them, with mike above. Outdoors, naturally, is best, but who needs back problems?
Tim
DUC985
I have tried 3rd order slopes, and didn't care for the result, however it was not the Le Cleac'h type. I think using his horn flare would be really interesting, as Vuci has done.
Since your horn is not baffle mounted, you have the ability to position it where it will integrate best with the 414. If the horn were fixed, the phase of the two drivers might have to be matched through the crossover, possibly with additional circuitry. Feel free to scoot the horn back and forth until the sound focuses. Reversing polarity on the hf horn may help, although it's about a toss up, since either way the driver phase will be rotated ~180 degrees.
Your autoformer with 3dB steps would offer more control. Nice addition. The link was just a low cost alternative. Some of the wall-mounted L-Pad types have a similar transformer.
Kevin
You seem accomplished in circuit design, so why not expand your horizons? My advice to anyone using small tube amps, as I do, but not exclusively, is to bi-amplify your system. This is not about quantity, believe me, but quality. Even a good SS on the bottom can sound very good, better than my tube gear, in low bass. Less bloat, better damping, I suppose. Maybe a N. Pass class A?
I'd try something else on the midrange horn, too, but that's just my bias.
I have heard the big JBL Hartsfield lenses such as yours, only writ large, and they sounded very good, but they are not universally admired.
http://www.classicaudiorepro.com/page4.html
I would also, at some point, try turning your onkens sideways. An experiment in integration of woofer to horn. May sound crazy but I think you may hear a difference. Center to center on your drivers is spread fairly wide, as is often true in these vintage type systems. Moving the horn closer may have some benefit. (1140 ft.sec/800Hz=1.425 ft or 17" center to center. Although largely ignored in many designs, it may help here).
Also, measuring bass indoors is tough. Wavelengths are large and the room affects everything -- 8 ft away and you are on another planet, measurement-wise. Try putting the boxes on their backs face up, if you can move them, with mike above. Outdoors, naturally, is best, but who needs back problems?
Tim
Re: Driver
I used the Iconic (Great Plains Audio) 165-8G in my full size Onkens, and while they were very expensive they were definitely worth it.
These are made using the old Altec tooling and by production people who worked for Altec prior to the Sparkomatic acquisition. Initially I contacted Altec about getting a pair of their 515-8G for the project, but they informed me they were discontinued - then a couple of weeks after I ordered the Iconics they informed me that they could get me a pair... I am totally happy with the choice I made. They also make some other Altec drivers in addition to the 165/515.
Check them out here: http://www.iconicspkrs.com/products.html
I dealt with them directly and they were quick, courteous, and the speakers were packed very well. It took just a couple of weeks to get them.
DUC985 said:
I used the Iconic (Great Plains Audio) 165-8G in my full size Onkens, and while they were very expensive they were definitely worth it.
These are made using the old Altec tooling and by production people who worked for Altec prior to the Sparkomatic acquisition. Initially I contacted Altec about getting a pair of their 515-8G for the project, but they informed me they were discontinued - then a couple of weeks after I ordered the Iconics they informed me that they could get me a pair... I am totally happy with the choice I made. They also make some other Altec drivers in addition to the 165/515.
Check them out here: http://www.iconicspkrs.com/products.html
I dealt with them directly and they were quick, courteous, and the speakers were packed very well. It took just a couple of weeks to get them.
Re: Tweaks
Hi Tim,
Some interesting thoughts here.. I had originally thought to bi or tri amp this system, but lost interest when I heard the end result. Still I should probably go back and take another look at this. 😉
The amplifier has tightly regulated low impedance regulated power supplies and is fixed biased. Not very typical of SE amplifiers in general. The amplifier has the best bass performance of any of the amplifiers in house including a pair of 300B PP amps I designed years ago (VTV article on my site.) within their limited power rating.
Still bi-amping might be a good compromise as long as I can keep the cross-over simple enough. What stopped me in the first place is that passive x-o even operating at the 600 ohm impedance of my line stage required very expensive custom inductors (I talked to Cinemag and others) which was discouraging. I have worked hard to keep the circuit path as simple and direct as possible and the system now has the immediacy and dynamics I seek.. (I wanted to avoid active VCVS based filters due to the additional circuit complexity even with a tube based topology - if I had crossed over low enough I might have used an op-amp [horrors] but at there is quite a bit of midrange below 800Hz.. And I wanted to avoid the unmanageable multiple feedback filter at all costs for those who object to VCVS.. 🙂 )
Interesting comments on driver centering, I need to measure the distance from woofer center to mid horn center, but I believe it is just a little over 17" The Onken baffles are 35" tall (they're on 4 inch pedestals to keep them off the basement floor) and the mid driver can move down about 0.75" as it currently sits on a wood cradle at the back.
I spent a long time working at a certain eville audio company
and have gotten fairly good at interpreting acoustic room responses, but measuring bass response in a fairly small room is a bear as you have pointed out..
I'm game to try other top ends at some point and designed the x-o to be compatible with the JBL 2405 slot loaded tweeter - which I have not so far gotten my hands on.. Fostex has several of interest as well.
Tractrix and other mid horns may be in my future.. For now I will try some of the above suggestions when the opportunity presents itself.
Tim Moorman said:
Hi Tim,
Some interesting thoughts here.. I had originally thought to bi or tri amp this system, but lost interest when I heard the end result. Still I should probably go back and take another look at this. 😉
The amplifier has tightly regulated low impedance regulated power supplies and is fixed biased. Not very typical of SE amplifiers in general. The amplifier has the best bass performance of any of the amplifiers in house including a pair of 300B PP amps I designed years ago (VTV article on my site.) within their limited power rating.
Still bi-amping might be a good compromise as long as I can keep the cross-over simple enough. What stopped me in the first place is that passive x-o even operating at the 600 ohm impedance of my line stage required very expensive custom inductors (I talked to Cinemag and others) which was discouraging. I have worked hard to keep the circuit path as simple and direct as possible and the system now has the immediacy and dynamics I seek.. (I wanted to avoid active VCVS based filters due to the additional circuit complexity even with a tube based topology - if I had crossed over low enough I might have used an op-amp [horrors] but at there is quite a bit of midrange below 800Hz.. And I wanted to avoid the unmanageable multiple feedback filter at all costs for those who object to VCVS.. 🙂 )
Interesting comments on driver centering, I need to measure the distance from woofer center to mid horn center, but I believe it is just a little over 17" The Onken baffles are 35" tall (they're on 4 inch pedestals to keep them off the basement floor) and the mid driver can move down about 0.75" as it currently sits on a wood cradle at the back.
I spent a long time working at a certain eville audio company
and have gotten fairly good at interpreting acoustic room responses, but measuring bass response in a fairly small room is a bear as you have pointed out.. I'm game to try other top ends at some point and designed the x-o to be compatible with the JBL 2405 slot loaded tweeter - which I have not so far gotten my hands on.. Fostex has several of interest as well.
Tractrix and other mid horns may be in my future.. For now I will try some of the above suggestions when the opportunity presents itself.
No Longer Available
DUC985
It appears the B&C DE25 has been scratched from the current B&C products listing.....
Too bad!
http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=4
Tim
DUC985
It appears the B&C DE25 has been scratched from the current B&C products listing.....
Too bad!
http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=4
Tim
Hi DUC 985
sorry for entering this thread .
Like I read in some posts before, You built open baffles with tone tubbys some time ago.
I intend doing something similar.
Would You mind helping me out a little on this ?
For not going too off topic:
The Oberton D2544 might be an alternative if the B&C DE25
is out of production
Greets from the Westerwald
Simon
sorry for entering this thread .
Like I read in some posts before, You built open baffles with tone tubbys some time ago.
I intend doing something similar.
Would You mind helping me out a little on this ?
For not going too off topic:
The Oberton D2544 might be an alternative if the B&C DE25
is out of production
Greets from the Westerwald
Simon
Hi Tim,
I measured the center to center of my mids and woofers, and you were quite right, they are further apart than the optimum 17" maybe 20" or so - short of actually installing them in the cabinets there isn't much I can do to rectify this issue. As it stands they are sitting about 3/4" above the top of the cabinet. The horn tweeters are about as close as they can get as well due to the size of the magnet structure on the back of the horn.
I would install the drivers in my cabinets, but for the fact that in the distant future I may be struck with the urge to experiment with other mid and treble horn setups. I should have placed the woofers a bit higher in the cabinet knowing this. (Originally I had planned to install all of the drivers in the cabinets.) There might be a way around this if I think further about it..
The x-o redesign definitely did make a difference in the overall sound of the system - less romantic due to less lift in the mid bass and low midrange.. I still haven't done the measurements I promised.. 😀
Just enjoying the improved sound.
I measured the center to center of my mids and woofers, and you were quite right, they are further apart than the optimum 17" maybe 20" or so - short of actually installing them in the cabinets there isn't much I can do to rectify this issue. As it stands they are sitting about 3/4" above the top of the cabinet. The horn tweeters are about as close as they can get as well due to the size of the magnet structure on the back of the horn.
I would install the drivers in my cabinets, but for the fact that in the distant future I may be struck with the urge to experiment with other mid and treble horn setups. I should have placed the woofers a bit higher in the cabinet knowing this. (Originally I had planned to install all of the drivers in the cabinets.) There might be a way around this if I think further about it..
The x-o redesign definitely did make a difference in the overall sound of the system - less romantic due to less lift in the mid bass and low midrange.. I still haven't done the measurements I promised.. 😀
Just enjoying the improved sound.
Nothing urgent
Kevinkr
Some day you may get the urge to experiment, and you might find turning the boxes sideways helps, when the horn is placed closer and directly over the top of the woofer. Or maybe you'll get the chance to swap out driver and horns for a lower roll-off combo, and try, say, a 500 Hz crossover for a larger window of integration.
In any case, there is always seems to be something to try and new ideas to work through, as you tweak and fiddle around with the system.
But just listening to what you have is perfectly OK, too.
Tim
Kevinkr
Some day you may get the urge to experiment, and you might find turning the boxes sideways helps, when the horn is placed closer and directly over the top of the woofer. Or maybe you'll get the chance to swap out driver and horns for a lower roll-off combo, and try, say, a 500 Hz crossover for a larger window of integration.
In any case, there is always seems to be something to try and new ideas to work through, as you tweak and fiddle around with the system.
But just listening to what you have is perfectly OK, too.
Tim
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