audio-kraut said:
I didn't realize that this was being allowed, It’s my understanding this is an isolated incident and those who are responsible are being properly punished. Do you know something the rest of us don't?
I am really sorry to have to inform you that in the case that is before the courts right now regarding the use of evidence gained under torture, the US government through its represantative there maintains that the evidence thus gained should be permissible. This means in the end that an order to permit torture - not only against foereigners where it is used right now, but also in the end against US citizens - is a really likelihood in the future.
tihttp://www.commondreams.org/views04/1205-07.htmhttp://www.commondreams.org/views04/1205-01.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1205-07.htm
tihttp://www.commondreams.org/views04/1205-07.htmhttp://www.commondreams.org/views04/1205-01.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1205-07.htm
Why not tourture them? It's not like we are breaking any Geneva laws. You have to be in uniform and fighting for a soveriegn nation to qualify for official POW status. We could just take them out back and shoot them in the head and that would be that. Just kidding of course. That would put us at the same level as the vermin we are trying to exterminate. Unacceptable. Anyway, tourture is NOT a reliable way to obtain imformation. You can tourure someone until they tell you who started the London fire of 1666 but that doesn't make it correct.
If the goal of Islam and it's "soldiers" is to destroy western culture and Islam-a-fy the world, and it is, it may ultamately come down to whose culture is destroyed first. Apperently we now already have an Islamsterdam and a Germanstan. Who's culture is next to be attacked in their home country? France? Spain? To late....It is one thing to move to another country and live in the culture of that country. It is another to move to a country and try to change i.e. destroy that culture by refusing to integrate. You may very well have to change your lifstyle. Overcoming the social stamps one gets from being of foriegn background will always be a challenge for people living in a different country.
USA
One of the reforms of US imigration should be profiling on the basis of what ethnic groups are able to integrate into US society, and those who do not. If so many are on welfare and depend on Government for survival 3 generations later, obviously those people from that ethnic group are not integrating into US society. Greater restriction should be applied to imigrants from those countries. English must be a requirement. Period. What IS a country if not for a national language, unique culture, and...uuhhh....oh yea, clear and secure boarders. I think our government has significant domestic problems to address. Too bad no one elected is going to do anything about it. You think Bush will do anything about it? Well, the truth is hard to swallow sometimes isn't it. The Globalist mind is hard to understand. Time to put down the pipe.
Free trade?...And Mr. Bush is going to pass this by how many other nations?? Whatever....smells like a stinky crock of $#!% to me. How about boarder security?? Yea...whatever....just another crock. To many companies benefiting from illegal cheap labor. Social Security reform?? Not if the AARP has anything to do with it. That would lessen the amount of money politicians can spend to get reelected. Just more hot air from another empty suit. So is the way of Government. Ain't it just wonderful??🙄 .....😡
If the goal of Islam and it's "soldiers" is to destroy western culture and Islam-a-fy the world, and it is, it may ultamately come down to whose culture is destroyed first. Apperently we now already have an Islamsterdam and a Germanstan. Who's culture is next to be attacked in their home country? France? Spain? To late....It is one thing to move to another country and live in the culture of that country. It is another to move to a country and try to change i.e. destroy that culture by refusing to integrate. You may very well have to change your lifstyle. Overcoming the social stamps one gets from being of foriegn background will always be a challenge for people living in a different country.
USA
One of the reforms of US imigration should be profiling on the basis of what ethnic groups are able to integrate into US society, and those who do not. If so many are on welfare and depend on Government for survival 3 generations later, obviously those people from that ethnic group are not integrating into US society. Greater restriction should be applied to imigrants from those countries. English must be a requirement. Period. What IS a country if not for a national language, unique culture, and...uuhhh....oh yea, clear and secure boarders. I think our government has significant domestic problems to address. Too bad no one elected is going to do anything about it. You think Bush will do anything about it? Well, the truth is hard to swallow sometimes isn't it. The Globalist mind is hard to understand. Time to put down the pipe.
Free trade?...And Mr. Bush is going to pass this by how many other nations?? Whatever....smells like a stinky crock of $#!% to me. How about boarder security?? Yea...whatever....just another crock. To many companies benefiting from illegal cheap labor. Social Security reform?? Not if the AARP has anything to do with it. That would lessen the amount of money politicians can spend to get reelected. Just more hot air from another empty suit. So is the way of Government. Ain't it just wonderful??🙄 .....😡What then is the difference between you and them? - and do not believe that once toture is established you can stop it from being used at home.
To me it is astonishing that a supposedly "enlightened" nation like the uSA can permit practices that were used in europe to basically identify witches during several hundred years with the result that all those who subsequently were burned at the stake or perished in other ways had all confessed under torture - as it was not permissible to burn a non confessing witch.
That should clearly indicate that torture does not achive anything like the con fession of the truth, torture makes anybody confess to anything - a very convinient tool for any dictatorship.
For me - a country permitting torture has lost the status of a civilized country. Maybe in their fear of beeing vulnarable no one in the US cares anymore , as safety comes before freedom.
The only problem is - freedom is never safe. So all your talk about a democracy is just that - talk and practise if the weather is fine.
In stormy times - democracy is apparently easily abandondend.
And who cast all the stones against a nazi germany?
Maybe you should do some research how close the connections between osama bin laden and the cia where right to 9/11.
The findings can be rather disturbing.
Also disturbing is the well documented fact that leading personell of the pakistan intelligence service met previous to 9/11 with government officials in the USA, the same people who supported the taliban and parts of bin ladens org.
It seems to me not an islamification - radical islamists imho do not stand a chance in europe except raising a whole pile of troubel - but the question for me is - who plays those radical islamists?
We should not forget that almost all radical islamist group at one time or another were funded by the USA.
cunningham said:
When the homeland nazis can arrest YOU with no evidence for being
enemy of the boss you may find out the hard way who "them" iscunningham said:
Yip
Do you have a uniform?
cunningham said:
Thats no joke, you could be the one getting shot in the head
cunningham said:
If the goal of Islam and it's "soldiers" is to destroy western culture and Islam-a-fy the world, and it is, it may ultamately come down to whose culture is destroyed first. Apperently we now already have an Islamsterdam and a Germanstan. Who's culture is next to be attacked in their home country? France? Spain? To late....It is one thing to move to another country and live in the culture of that country. It is another to move to a country and try to change i.e. destroy that culture by refusing to integrate. You may very well have to change your lifstyle. Overcoming the social stamps one gets from being of foriegn background will always be a challenge for people living in a different country.
USA
One of the reforms of US imigration should be profiling on the basis of what ethnic groups are able to integrate into US society, and those who do not. If so many are on welfare and depend on Government for survival 3 generations later, obviously those people from that ethnic group are not integrating into US society. Greater restriction should be applied to imigrants from those countries. English must be a requirement. Period. What IS a country if not for a national language, unique culture, and...uuhhh....oh yea, clear and secure boarders. I think our government has significant domestic problems to address. Too bad no one elected is going to do anything about it. You think Bush will do anything about it? Well, the truth is hard to swallow sometimes isn't it. The Globalist mind is hard to understand. Time to put down the pipe.
audio-kraut said:
I think you misunderstand my position on tourture. That was a rhetorical question. I believe I said that type of behavior makes us just LIKE the vermin we are trying to exterminate.
rfbrw said:
Only the rich can run for office in this country...I have no money and know no one who does.😀
Does that not indicate that all is not well with "democracy" in the USA? In most other countries you work your way up through the party ranks, meaning the party supports your bid when you have the capabilities. Somebody like GWB would never have had a chance in any other parliamentary democracy where you have to proof your mettle in the daily grind in the house of commons, beginning your political career as a lowly mp.
Give me a parliamentary democracy any day instead of the so called presidential one.
America is essentially a two party democracy, not a true democracy. History proves pure democratic rule doesn't work too well. Though I can't really tell if it is run by the Republicrates or the Demicans.🙄 Doesn't seem to be much difference lately particularly on the domestic front.
That is my impression as well - especially when the dem's leadership distances itself now from michael moore. And the rhetoric on both sides during the election - not listening to the voices speaking - might have come from either candidate.
cunningham said:
Only the rich can run for office in this country...I have no money and know no one who does.😀
Perhaps Brian Let-Them-Eat-Cake Donaldson and his ilk can fund you. With Tall Shadow as your running mate and Kingdaddy as your campaign manager how can you lose. Perhaps kelticwizard can play the voice of reason to your prophet of doom.
audio-kraut said:
And how again does this suggest that this activity is being condoned? lobbying to use evidence that was extracted under torture is in no way an acceptance of these crimes. What happened at that prison was wrong and everybody knows it including our government and the army officials that’s why the perpetrators are being punished. Get over trying to make everything a an evil government conspiracy, it's not. Nothing deeper here then criminal activity from a bunch of idiots who abused their power for their own satisfaction.
It’s amazing how naive some of you are that constantly throw stones at anything America touches without realizing that your country and people are the same. You don’t have to be a superpower to be wrong or cause unrest in the world. Many terrorist organizations have been allowed to do this for many years, especially by the wussy European countries that cry the loudest about anything America does.
Maybe some of our government officials have realized that buying oil from a government like Saudi Arabia is causing much agitation and proliferation of extremist groups and are actually trying to do something about it (instead of crying and issuing sanctions that hurt the poor people). Maybe having a oil rich democratic nation in the Middle East will some day relieve some of this agitation and pave a way for better relations. Obviously the reason for going to war turned out to be wrong, but I don’t believe the polemist attitude that it was all a blood for oil campaign, just doesn’t ring true, and no matter what it’s too late to turn back now. If the region does stabilize and Iraq becomes a successful Democracy I hope some of you have the balls to admit your cynical attitudes and conspiracy theories were wrong, but I doubt it, seems like most just like to cry, talk and point fingers but never actually do anything.
Hypocrisy and stupidity is an ugly combination, seems like many hear have no clue about true human nature. What’s easier to do, conspire or screw up?
kingdaddy said:
Keep digging your hole buddy. It's probably big enough for a few of you by now.
Cal
Who is beeing naive now? That those plans how to persue the future of american politics had been drawn up way before the present government by cheney, rumsfiddle et al is what? Just thinking ahaed, eh?
That condoning the use of evidence gained by tortyre is only the first step of condoning it - has that ever occured to you?
That those terrorist where fostered by america is also just a consspiracy theory.
The fact is - america persues his foreign policies at present with no consideration but to americas own benefit - and nobody elses.
The only solution - the rest odf the world has to stand against america if america stands against the rest of the world - think you could win that one? when your'e not even able to come to hrips with a piddly little country like iraq - as in vietnam. The only option then and now - nuke'em, or withdraw - what will it be this time around?
Stupidity is - repeating the same mistake twice.
Nobody was against america under any previous president (except some radicals as usual) - but this one has achieved what non other could before him - congrats and hope we will all survive those four years.
It will be a great 4 years and we'll prosper like never before.
My dear friend Cunningham has higher ethical standards than to let someone buy his way into office. To do so would make him a mere puppet to whoever put him there, and he has better things to do with his life than be a puppet. Even if I had enough money, I would not squander it such a fasion.
I would not speak so quickly about not finding WMDs in Iraq. We've found plenty of weapons in Faluga, many made by and bought from the French under the sanctions and paid for by the UN oil for food program. Once we've squashed these insolent bugs, Iraq will elect its own government and become a very prosperous and peacefull friend of the US regardless of how much you eurosissys whine.
dubya is the man. At least if he went on TV wagging his finger saying "I did not have sex with that woman", you could believe him.
My dear friend Cunningham has higher ethical standards than to let someone buy his way into office. To do so would make him a mere puppet to whoever put him there, and he has better things to do with his life than be a puppet. Even if I had enough money, I would not squander it such a fasion.
I would not speak so quickly about not finding WMDs in Iraq. We've found plenty of weapons in Faluga, many made by and bought from the French under the sanctions and paid for by the UN oil for food program. Once we've squashed these insolent bugs, Iraq will elect its own government and become a very prosperous and peacefull friend of the US regardless of how much you eurosissys whine.
dubya is the man. At least if he went on TV wagging his finger saying "I did not have sex with that woman", you could believe him.
audio-kraut said:
This I agree with; How do you know if the evidence is credible if it is obtained through tourture? Someone will say whatever it takes to get out of the pain, physically or mentally.
audio-kraut said:
This I don't agree with; What time period do you want to talk about? The early days when England and most of the developed world was aganst us or perhaps later. What about the Bolshevics? They sure weren't our freinds. Do you think Joseph Stalin was really on our side...ever? Yes, my freind, America has always had enemies that are soverien nations and will always have them. Policies popular to this country can't possibly satisfy everyone in the world.
As for Iraq, the real problem was started in the begining when the League of Nations created the country after WWI and proceeded to drain the oil. The only viable solution is to either dissolve Iraq and create 3 seperate ethnic countries each with it's own government, or 3 states each with it's own government for the country of Iraq. Shiite land in the south, Sunni land in the west/middle, and Kurd land in the North. The problem is that most of the oil is in the south. There is no way that these three different cultures of Arabs will be able to live in democracy together. The Sunnis and Shiites have been killing each other for at least a thousand years. Something about the desendents of Mohammad or some nonsense like that. That kind of religious hate is bread into the populations and we are not going to resolve that. The Kurds are just sick of being the foot stool for so many others and who can blame them? Yes, the best solution is to just keep them seperate, both physically and politically. Unfourtunatly, I don't think this is the plan.
Brian Donaldson said:
Gee wizz... I'm flattered. Unfourtunately, there is way too many empty suits in government today. I must admit, I think GW is also. Do you know about the new intellegence spending bill that GW is signing into law? You might think that this bill had some restrictions on ILEGAL immigrants gaining drivers licenses. Nope, not in there. If you are an ileagal here in the US, you can still get a drivers license under any name you feel like. Heck just make up a social security number, could probably get benefits. Do you know that this bill dumps the previous law made in 1971 that makes it a crime to kill wild horses and sell the meat to Eroupe for pet food? The law basically stated that wild horses would be slaughtered after 3 attempts to sell them failed. Now it is open season. The meat is then made into dog food and sold to Europe. There is a clause in this new bill that nullifies the previous law. Bush must be liking this on accout his ranch will not be plauqed by the runnings of wild horses. I think it is deplorable. Yet another 600 billion dolars spent on WHAT????.😕
Yes, there always were some enemies of america - always, also i am not sure the russians weren't enemies just out of fear to preserve their country within its borders. The europeans - and i have lived in germany for thirty years - were always less afraid of russia then the USA - history always shows that the agressor cam from the west to russia. They in turn went east to consolidate their empire there.
But today we are talking the alienation of almost all of the old friends of america. And that is definetely knew to the extend it happened during the past three years. That is for sure no reason to gloat as some neocons stupidely seem prone to do.
You complain about the butchering of wild horses - that is just the start. This government is hellbent to permit exploration ANYWHERE and to dismantle almost all environmental protection. For whom? Just look who belongs to cheney's club. They will dismantle what it took thirty years to build, an even better environmental protection act and practise than even canada had - nothing for us to be proud of.
But today we are talking the alienation of almost all of the old friends of america. And that is definetely knew to the extend it happened during the past three years. That is for sure no reason to gloat as some neocons stupidely seem prone to do.
You complain about the butchering of wild horses - that is just the start. This government is hellbent to permit exploration ANYWHERE and to dismantle almost all environmental protection. For whom? Just look who belongs to cheney's club. They will dismantle what it took thirty years to build, an even better environmental protection act and practise than even canada had - nothing for us to be proud of.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.