picowallspeaker, those "strange" speakers could be using NXT technology, I've got a cheapie here that uses them ...
Dunno, I trashed 'em! My Philips which are 6 1/2 ", with front magnet and whizzer cone are the best in the 0.1-10 kHz range.
Another 2.1 set that I found lately had a pair of 2 " with a rising frequency response
so I put 'em in the 10 " waveguide that was in the making and sounded quite good...but a 4 Ω-5 W mated with a 8Ω 120 W woofer and filtered with a 33 uF cap stands only a fraction of second peak 😱😀
Oh! The thread is about electronics 😀🙄
Another 2.1 set that I found lately had a pair of 2 " with a rising frequency response
so I put 'em in the 10 " waveguide that was in the making and sounded quite good...but a 4 Ω-5 W mated with a 8Ω 120 W woofer and filtered with a 33 uF cap stands only a fraction of second peak 😱😀
Oh! The thread is about electronics 😀🙄
Hope not😀
Still things that can be done but is getting difficult to work on the small pcb with the plate attached and cables hanging from both sides, not to say with both heatsinks. Maybe next will be the supply to get the slight hum out with a CLC. This will clear for micro dynamics to show its greatness. There still are about 8 ceramics that don’t know their function.
And still need to see if the mid peaking is gone for good.
Antonio
Strange as you may think I’m enjoying organ music now (or again?) the main system is lacking in musicality against this near field setup. I got lucky with this one for sure but took a bit of work thou.
It’s amazing how this little setup can bring music to life, you never know until you try…
It’s amazing how this little setup can bring music to life, you never know until you try…
I was half expecting that to happen, 🙂 ... what can happen with more complex, theoretically 'better' systems is that little problems can intrude, eat away at the musicality, and before you know it you're not enjoying the sound as much.
There's far less that can go somewhat askew with the simpler, PC system - so it's easier to recover the quality of the music being enjoyable. As you say, you had to do a bit, it was a fiddle - but the potential was there ...
I will go out on a limb, and say that it wasn't so much luck, but that you were prepared to try things, give it a go - I've done this sort of thing so many times now I just assume that I'll make decent headway, and recover satisfying sound ...
There's far less that can go somewhat askew with the simpler, PC system - so it's easier to recover the quality of the music being enjoyable. As you say, you had to do a bit, it was a fiddle - but the potential was there ...
I will go out on a limb, and say that it wasn't so much luck, but that you were prepared to try things, give it a go - I've done this sort of thing so many times now I just assume that I'll make decent headway, and recover satisfying sound ...
Frank,
Agree with what you said, it’s a simple system but at the same time is complex; we can learn some things from the one we have been working here. Is actually a 4 amp system, two of them working in a bridge configuration with nothing intruding the connection to the woofer, no caps, coils or other passive elements and only having a low pass filter in the form of parallel passives with the load that is actually shunting the HF.
On the side of the full range satellites (mids and HF) each has its own amp (of course) and the high pass is controlled by a small high quality output cap and maybe some passives in parallel to the load to get the desired response to the speaker.
Most of the complexity, not considering all the circuitry included on the chipamps, is basically the number of amps used in the other hand the simplicity is in the connection to the speakers.
Hope I made the point, English is not my maiden language.
Antonio 😉
Agree with what you said, it’s a simple system but at the same time is complex; we can learn some things from the one we have been working here. Is actually a 4 amp system, two of them working in a bridge configuration with nothing intruding the connection to the woofer, no caps, coils or other passive elements and only having a low pass filter in the form of parallel passives with the load that is actually shunting the HF.
On the side of the full range satellites (mids and HF) each has its own amp (of course) and the high pass is controlled by a small high quality output cap and maybe some passives in parallel to the load to get the desired response to the speaker.
Most of the complexity, not considering all the circuitry included on the chipamps, is basically the number of amps used in the other hand the simplicity is in the connection to the speakers.
Hope I made the point, English is not my maiden language.
Antonio 😉
where is the gain?
the amp i described is actually 4 identical amps in one chip.
no crossover, not even a single passive part between the amp outputs and the drivers.
just what you like.
at least, try to build the amp and power the speakers from it, as it would alone be a huge leap forwards.
the amp i described is actually 4 identical amps in one chip.
no crossover, not even a single passive part between the amp outputs and the drivers.
just what you like.
at least, try to build the amp and power the speakers from it, as it would alone be a huge leap forwards.
Arty,
I was just making the point of these type of amps against the big stereo boxes with floor standing 3 way speakers full of passive xover parts which most of the time looses on musicality even if they can rattle windows.
There are no perfect sound systems but these chipamps can be made to sound musical and wins over on soft passages with far more detail and intelligibility and they also can be made to sound loud as you well know. And also works well as background music too which big systems usually don’t.
I’m actually referring to the system we have been working on, used on a near field situation, this is my only experience with chipamps and for sure they are better setups than this tweaked commercial kit which was an exercise to prove some points with Frank who is the wise guy in this regard.
I will have a second look to your proposal and thanks for your input
Antonio 😉
I was just making the point of these type of amps against the big stereo boxes with floor standing 3 way speakers full of passive xover parts which most of the time looses on musicality even if they can rattle windows.
There are no perfect sound systems but these chipamps can be made to sound musical and wins over on soft passages with far more detail and intelligibility and they also can be made to sound loud as you well know. And also works well as background music too which big systems usually don’t.
I’m actually referring to the system we have been working on, used on a near field situation, this is my only experience with chipamps and for sure they are better setups than this tweaked commercial kit which was an exercise to prove some points with Frank who is the wise guy in this regard.
I will have a second look to your proposal and thanks for your input
Antonio 😉
okay🙂
i really try to help here to be honest.
so.. I think You should try to build the tda 8560 amp, in a 2.1 channel setup.
and try driving the samsung speakers with this tda amp.
the sound will improve, as with this amp you have tonns of headroom.
really inexpensive project, it can be build approx. at the size of a box of matches.
i really try to help here to be honest.
so.. I think You should try to build the tda 8560 amp, in a 2.1 channel setup.
and try driving the samsung speakers with this tda amp.
the sound will improve, as with this amp you have tonns of headroom.
really inexpensive project, it can be build approx. at the size of a box of matches.
Arty, appreciate that.
I can understand that you do have an amp with the 8560 and are quite satisfied with it but what can’t understand is why you assure that it will be better sounding? Is there something I don’t understand or know?
The kit we have been taking about in the thread is sounding very good at the moment, unfortunately you can’t hear it.
Antonio
And the other point is, that's what's very important is how one goes about scaling up the volume - if one can't keep increasing the outright, clean SPLs while still retaining all that musicality then something is going wrong somewhere, a wrong turn is being taken. Ultimately, window shattering volumes should be attainable, by increasing the deliverable power of the amplifier in a system and using speaker drivers capable of handling it - and all the musicality delivered in the lower level sound is still fully retained.
Missing the mids bump?
That is what I thought at the begging after changing the second pair 0.22u lytics by another set of MKP’s which are parallel to the load on the small chip. Too early to make other comments but looking very promising,
Antonio 😛
That is what I thought at the begging after changing the second pair 0.22u lytics by another set of MKP’s which are parallel to the load on the small chip. Too early to make other comments but looking very promising,
Antonio 😛
most of the chips used in kits like that are inferior to the TDA car radio chipamps.
most mods done to such systems include for example better input caps.
and a smoother powersupply, naturally.
i do use TDA car stereo series chips, built quite a few amps with them. allso with lm3886, tda 7294, had amps with STK chips, and so on.
The Tda 1553/1557/8560/alikes have an exceptional price/value rating, as for the dirt cheap money one can get a really decent chip, quite good noise rejection, ease of use, etc..
not the best chips out there, but i found it the most DIY friendly.
apart from that, the mentioned chip has good statistics.
a chip quite common to usual pc sound kits is the
TEA2025 pdf, TEA2025 description, TEA2025 datasheets, TEA2025 view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::
TEA2025.
the datasheet shows a nice 4,7 watt at 10% thd.
SVR at 40-46 dBL.
the tda 8562 type
TDA8562Q pdf, TDA8562Q description, TDA8562Q datasheets, TDA8562Q view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::
has a nice 48 dBL of powersupply noise rejection,
THD figures are far better as it stays in proximity of 1% up to 7-8 watt output.
the headroom itself will make sure the IC is not working hard at all, while an undersized amp would have to, and therefore would corrupt playback more.
the other thing is the powersupply it self, the 8562 can be powered from the pc psu it self, that giving it a beef of about 5x times more current than it would ever need, even if you have a powerfull computer. can't compare the beefy pc psu to the usually underdesigned little traffo factory kits have. not to mention, the pc psu is more or less regulated.
while these chips are not the best out there, the specs make it verry suitable for pc multimedia use, tey where designed by default to be used in hars environment, tolerate abuse quite well, need minimal number of external components (in special cases one just has to apply power, connect input, and connect speakers, even without any external component it should work flawlessly), all this with well within reasonable freq. range, and low THD figures within reasonable limits of output power.
the commonly used amp chips in low to mid priced units share none of these characteristics at all, and are powered by a psu well under designed, poor filtering, and way too low VA rating to have a solid(ish) voltage rail to power them.
speakers are the next spot to tune, but without an amp that can handle them, it is just a half solution. a chain is only as strong as the least strong element it has.
in our case the chain is right along the signal path.
if you see potential in the set it self, then most probably an amp upgrade would be the proper way to start the tuning. all else can be done afterwards.
i do not know the exact kind of chip the samsung set has, maybe you could share the chip part number.
most mods done to such systems include for example better input caps.
and a smoother powersupply, naturally.
i do use TDA car stereo series chips, built quite a few amps with them. allso with lm3886, tda 7294, had amps with STK chips, and so on.
The Tda 1553/1557/8560/alikes have an exceptional price/value rating, as for the dirt cheap money one can get a really decent chip, quite good noise rejection, ease of use, etc..
not the best chips out there, but i found it the most DIY friendly.
apart from that, the mentioned chip has good statistics.
a chip quite common to usual pc sound kits is the
TEA2025 pdf, TEA2025 description, TEA2025 datasheets, TEA2025 view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::
TEA2025.
the datasheet shows a nice 4,7 watt at 10% thd.
SVR at 40-46 dBL.
the tda 8562 type
TDA8562Q pdf, TDA8562Q description, TDA8562Q datasheets, TDA8562Q view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::
has a nice 48 dBL of powersupply noise rejection,
THD figures are far better as it stays in proximity of 1% up to 7-8 watt output.
the headroom itself will make sure the IC is not working hard at all, while an undersized amp would have to, and therefore would corrupt playback more.
the other thing is the powersupply it self, the 8562 can be powered from the pc psu it self, that giving it a beef of about 5x times more current than it would ever need, even if you have a powerfull computer. can't compare the beefy pc psu to the usually underdesigned little traffo factory kits have. not to mention, the pc psu is more or less regulated.
while these chips are not the best out there, the specs make it verry suitable for pc multimedia use, tey where designed by default to be used in hars environment, tolerate abuse quite well, need minimal number of external components (in special cases one just has to apply power, connect input, and connect speakers, even without any external component it should work flawlessly), all this with well within reasonable freq. range, and low THD figures within reasonable limits of output power.
the commonly used amp chips in low to mid priced units share none of these characteristics at all, and are powered by a psu well under designed, poor filtering, and way too low VA rating to have a solid(ish) voltage rail to power them.
speakers are the next spot to tune, but without an amp that can handle them, it is just a half solution. a chain is only as strong as the least strong element it has.
in our case the chain is right along the signal path.
if you see potential in the set it self, then most probably an amp upgrade would be the proper way to start the tuning. all else can be done afterwards.
i do not know the exact kind of chip the samsung set has, maybe you could share the chip part number.
MKP’s are taking long to settle down maybe too little current passing but we are getting there.
Other thing I would like, is to change input caps on the smaller chip, they are in a very small area, don’t know the value, the type is those green polyester but can’t think of a type that will fit and be of better quality, any suggestion?
Other thing I would like, is to change input caps on the smaller chip, they are in a very small area, don’t know the value, the type is those green polyester but can’t think of a type that will fit and be of better quality, any suggestion?
Can't help you here, Antonio, would just have the usual suggestion of trying a polypropylene - just make sure the size is not significantly larger. Again, changing of those sorts of caps is not my thing - I worry about other areas, where I find more profound benefit in altering the physical aspects of the circuit.
Arty,
Your post is full of good information. Wish I knew which chips are on the pcb unfortunately they are covered with the HS which are soldered to the pcb and think they will be glued to the chip itself so taking them out will destroy them and markings on the chip could also be destroyed.
As I said before the chip working with the woofer has a pinout like the TEA2025B and is doing a credible job so not much of a concern for now.
In the other hand the small chip might be candidate for a replacement giving the correct pinout on a DIP8 (might be quite standard in the industry?) like the TDA2822M. In case I do this which would be your suggestions? I’ll see if can find them locally.
Yes, the supply transformer looks small maybe 20VA or even less but have found it doesn’t suffer much but could be a good idea to replace it with something like a 40VA space permitting.
Good advice, thanks
Antonio
🙂
Your post is full of good information. Wish I knew which chips are on the pcb unfortunately they are covered with the HS which are soldered to the pcb and think they will be glued to the chip itself so taking them out will destroy them and markings on the chip could also be destroyed.
As I said before the chip working with the woofer has a pinout like the TEA2025B and is doing a credible job so not much of a concern for now.
In the other hand the small chip might be candidate for a replacement giving the correct pinout on a DIP8 (might be quite standard in the industry?) like the TDA2822M. In case I do this which would be your suggestions? I’ll see if can find them locally.
Yes, the supply transformer looks small maybe 20VA or even less but have found it doesn’t suffer much but could be a good idea to replace it with something like a 40VA space permitting.
Good advice, thanks
Antonio
🙂
Antonio,it's up to you how far you want to take it, but my interest would be to use the full working range of the amps - to be able to run them flat out continuously, with music tracks, never losing clean sound. Any sign of a faltering in that behaviour I would take as a lack in the power supply area, so in that regard upping the transformer rating but can only help ...
Just out of sheer curiosity, which chips have you found that beat out those TDA car radio chips? I gave up using LM3886s and TDA7293s after I discovered those beauties....
MKPs don't settle down. This is the reason why people use them straight off the bat.
Polyester caps have been shown to significantly improve after a few hours of use and then incrementally increasing in performance over an extended time. Polyprops don't do this and perform perfectly from the start.
When you are making your changes to these speakers you do not need to wait between alterations. Simply make one, listen to a few songs and make another. If the change was worth it, it should be apparent straight away. If it's not then it wasn't worth the change.
Polyester caps have been shown to significantly improve after a few hours of use and then incrementally increasing in performance over an extended time. Polyprops don't do this and perform perfectly from the start.
When you are making your changes to these speakers you do not need to wait between alterations. Simply make one, listen to a few songs and make another. If the change was worth it, it should be apparent straight away. If it's not then it wasn't worth the change.
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