That's a good way of expressing it. Done right, horns don't sound like horns - they are both transparent and dynamic. The good old Altec 811 and 511 won't ever get there, but you can have a lot of fun and learn a lot using them.
And I feel that it is very important to learn what horns can do wrong and how to minimize that before going on to bigger, better projects.
The learning curve with horns is shockingly long. Almost everything you learn about direct-radiators has to be thrown in the trash.
The crossovers have to be different, and for some reason they are much more touchy about time-alignment than direct-radiators. This seems to be the result of much higher transparency, and the related quality of falling off the cliff much quicker if things aren't quite right. They sound unbelievably foul if the crossover is too low, diffraction (including throat pinch) isn't addressed, and there are time errors. You certainly learn where that horrible PA-speaker screech comes from.
I haven't had much experience with the deep-EQ method of working with horns. If the impulse response of a driver or horn is too screwed up (several milliseconds of clutter that can't be cleaned up), I usually give up and look elsewhere, no matter what it sounds like.
The quick-n-dirty test, for me, is a quick listen to pink noise and live recordings with audience applause. This is when resonance and time-domain ringing become most obvious.
It's also the area where full-range whizzer-cones and old-school horns fall down really badly. There's no good fix, since the problems are mostly in the time domain, and don't respond well to frequency-based equalization.
Heavy-duty FIR time-based equalization has the nasty drawback of sensitive microphone positioning ... move the mike a few inches, and the frequency and time response disintegrate into a million pieces. The best approach is broad-brush frequency EQ and hope that it does the job.
The crossovers have to be different, and for some reason they are much more touchy about time-alignment than direct-radiators. This seems to be the result of much higher transparency, and the related quality of falling off the cliff much quicker if things aren't quite right. They sound unbelievably foul if the crossover is too low, diffraction (including throat pinch) isn't addressed, and there are time errors. You certainly learn where that horrible PA-speaker screech comes from.
I haven't had much experience with the deep-EQ method of working with horns. If the impulse response of a driver or horn is too screwed up (several milliseconds of clutter that can't be cleaned up), I usually give up and look elsewhere, no matter what it sounds like.
The quick-n-dirty test, for me, is a quick listen to pink noise and live recordings with audience applause. This is when resonance and time-domain ringing become most obvious.
It's also the area where full-range whizzer-cones and old-school horns fall down really badly. There's no good fix, since the problems are mostly in the time domain, and don't respond well to frequency-based equalization.
Heavy-duty FIR time-based equalization has the nasty drawback of sensitive microphone positioning ... move the mike a few inches, and the frequency and time response disintegrate into a million pieces. The best approach is broad-brush frequency EQ and hope that it does the job.
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bring on the audience
I have listened to live recordings just a few times. I listen to the applause and think it should sound like what's eminating from behind the microphone, instead of the microphones capturing a full frontal attack, or ??
I have listened to live recordings just a few times. I listen to the applause and think it should sound like what's eminating from behind the microphone, instead of the microphones capturing a full frontal attack, or ??
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If the recording was made with relatively few microphones (multi-miking makes a hash out of time response), the audience should be right in the room with you, or maybe on the plane of the speakers. Clutter in the time response usually results in gross coloration of applause, as well as complete destruction of spatial distribution.
In the worst cases (typical PA speakers, for example) the applause sounds it's coming out of a pair of rattling tin cans located where the L and R speakers are, with no spatial distribution at all. This is a severe test, but realistic, since impulse response does matter.
By comparison, electrostats, or top-flight horn/waveguides, put you right there in the audience, the applause sounds like real people sitting all around you, and there is no awareness of the L and R speaker locations (no "detenting" at the speaker location).
In the worst cases (typical PA speakers, for example) the applause sounds it's coming out of a pair of rattling tin cans located where the L and R speakers are, with no spatial distribution at all. This is a severe test, but realistic, since impulse response does matter.
By comparison, electrostats, or top-flight horn/waveguides, put you right there in the audience, the applause sounds like real people sitting all around you, and there is no awareness of the L and R speaker locations (no "detenting" at the speaker location).
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Sorry, not enough experience with 15" drivers from me. I have been curious about the Altec speakers ever since I heard my next door neighbours' Altec Barcelona speakers. Sadly he got rid of them but I liked what they did. I guess the horn in that one would be a 511?
If I had the room I would have been on a similar route with big horns, probably with a home brew 1505 multicell horn and A7 like cabinet.
But contrary to Lynn I would use FIR based filtering to get it all into shape.
I do not agree with his view on FIR filters. The single point measurement had me puzzled too, but that was before I actually tried it and measured at multiple positions in the room to see and be able to judge the results.
It's the sliding correction window that determines what it does and that part is controlled by the user. At mid and high frequencies you're actually correcting the speakers due to a short gated frequency correction. The lower frequency gate is long enough to correct (some) room effects.
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Imo, I have not found horns to be too touchy in terms of "time alignment" at all. But then I try to align all my speakers, so perhaps this is nothing special for me.
Where there are major issues that I have found is in the driver itself and as Earl Geddes said in another thread that is current, and I am with him on this, (it was the thread on conic horns...) is that the transition from the driver throat to the horn throat is a critical area.
I think there is more going on than just this, and i have found that the choice of driver WRT the horn makes or breaks the sound totally. Many horns that I have heard do not sound particularly good, but the good ones do. Silly thing to say except that there is no "magic" in a horn automatically.
My feeling is that most properly placed speakers will do a reasonable job of creating a soundstage (not all speakers seem to be properly placed, imo). The part about discerning the space around something like an individual speaking or clapping in the midst of others doing the same is where the differences lie between regular and special.
The ideal would be to make it sound like (for example) that you were listening in a concert hall to a choral piece... of course this is impossible for two big reasons: 1) you are not listening to a distributed sound source (actual people) at a distance, 2) your room is much smaller than the concert hall. (some people actually have barn sized rooms, or nearly so, and these rooms DO sound substantially better than 'normal' sized rooms). But what can be done is to not smear the reproduced waveform. Even so, to some extent all speakers do 'smear' the reproduced waveform (group delay for example, although some claim it is inaudible). Merely sending the wavefront out from two or more separate locations (woofer + horn for example) must cause a type of distortion, no matter what.
So, once again it's deciding which deficits you can accept and which are not.
Fwiw, I listen to "golden age" horns, and they sound decidedly not like anything except very clean and dynamic. In my opinion it's due to the driver + horn, not the horn or the driver.
Those LFT-11 speakers ought to sound very good in many ways. What they are not likely to do is to give "jump factor" - my term for the seemingly unlimited dynamics available from some horns. That's not the same as "playing loud" at all. I suspect the LFTs also have a telltale "ribbon" sonic signature, which is the same as saying a particular type of harmonic distortion that is audible.
Bruce, you did not say if you own the space ur in, and if an IB arrangement might be possible for you? That will get you the most LF extension for the least effort overall.
One can make nice horns from wood, consider that.
Veneer or thin ply can be formed as well... 😀
Where there are major issues that I have found is in the driver itself and as Earl Geddes said in another thread that is current, and I am with him on this, (it was the thread on conic horns...) is that the transition from the driver throat to the horn throat is a critical area.
I think there is more going on than just this, and i have found that the choice of driver WRT the horn makes or breaks the sound totally. Many horns that I have heard do not sound particularly good, but the good ones do. Silly thing to say except that there is no "magic" in a horn automatically.
My feeling is that most properly placed speakers will do a reasonable job of creating a soundstage (not all speakers seem to be properly placed, imo). The part about discerning the space around something like an individual speaking or clapping in the midst of others doing the same is where the differences lie between regular and special.
The ideal would be to make it sound like (for example) that you were listening in a concert hall to a choral piece... of course this is impossible for two big reasons: 1) you are not listening to a distributed sound source (actual people) at a distance, 2) your room is much smaller than the concert hall. (some people actually have barn sized rooms, or nearly so, and these rooms DO sound substantially better than 'normal' sized rooms). But what can be done is to not smear the reproduced waveform. Even so, to some extent all speakers do 'smear' the reproduced waveform (group delay for example, although some claim it is inaudible). Merely sending the wavefront out from two or more separate locations (woofer + horn for example) must cause a type of distortion, no matter what.
So, once again it's deciding which deficits you can accept and which are not.
Fwiw, I listen to "golden age" horns, and they sound decidedly not like anything except very clean and dynamic. In my opinion it's due to the driver + horn, not the horn or the driver.
Those LFT-11 speakers ought to sound very good in many ways. What they are not likely to do is to give "jump factor" - my term for the seemingly unlimited dynamics available from some horns. That's not the same as "playing loud" at all. I suspect the LFTs also have a telltale "ribbon" sonic signature, which is the same as saying a particular type of harmonic distortion that is audible.
Bruce, you did not say if you own the space ur in, and if an IB arrangement might be possible for you? That will get you the most LF extension for the least effort overall.
One can make nice horns from wood, consider that.
Veneer or thin ply can be formed as well... 😀
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Searching for "2-way" systems has been showing up more examples for relevant bass cabinets. Single Onken loaded 15" are quite big but doable. The Onken W will not physically fit in my living room. But they look like fun. The Edgar Show Horn is interesting and I will be looking for current horn loaded cabs as well. So many options, so little time.
weyaso, the question with DSP correction reduces to the issue of the audibility of the hardware/software. Is the cure worse than the disease, or is this a trade between one deficit or another?
I'd absolutely love to have totally transparent DSP on hand. Love it.
_-_-
PS. I have yet to hear an Onken to good advantage... there's still time though. 😀
I'd absolutely love to have totally transparent DSP on hand. Love it.
_-_-
PS. I have yet to hear an Onken to good advantage... there's still time though. 😀
The LFTs are lovely and create an inducement to good posture. If you hold your head just right it is not unlike wearing excellent headphones. Stand up or turn around and it is like listening to a system coming from the next room. And yes, it is not a dynamic speaker. I don't have much ribbon experience but they do sound like electrostatic speakers. The sound stage is amazing and they excel with chamber music. I have been trying to understand Indian classical music this past year and they are wonderful for these ensembles, until the percussion. Tablas need more punch than these can muster. And they are crossed to a common woofer at about 250Hz which does not help matters. But the sarod is to die for.
I am renting currently and am a new transplant. I have been in homes with infinite baffle subwoofers. I had a friend with a 21" mounted in the floor of his den. It was wild. Are you thinking of them as subwoofers or as stand in's for the bass cab I am fretting about?
I did find a Swedish fellow's multi-horn build here on diyAudio that I intend to build this summer. But first I need to build the bass cabinets for these 811b's. I think it is a lot like cuisine or genres of music. When people ask what I listen to I typically say that I only listen to good music. Or with food, I only eat good food. (Actually, I should be as discriminating with food as I am with music. I am on the seafood diet. I see food and I eat it.) I can't get my kids to eat Indian food. They will eat French food. They can take or leave Chinese food. Each of these cuisines is potentially haute cuisine. Same with music. Same with music reproduction. I am not a big fan of the Bose 901 to recreate a concert experience but the times I have been at a party and it is playing studio recorded pop music it has been a lot of fun. I would not say I am getting tired of the full range speakers. But I miss the shock and awe of the horn systems I have heard in the past. Granted, I have never lived with one. And I may find some incompatibility "the next morning." But it is something to explore. I have absolute confidence that the issues you raise are credible. I will be listening for them. Happily, this is no desert island paradigm and I am not limited to one system.
So, what is you favorite 15" driver under $250 and how would you load it?
I don't know the acronym weyaso. But this issue of DSP is new to me. I am very sensitive to amplifiers. It is hard for me to tell the difference between good amplifiers. They are good and can be chip, transitor, or tube. But bad amplifiers really rain on my parade. It is like the music is coming out of a tin can, regardless of the other components.
I have owned one equalizer and borrowed a couple others through the 70's and 80's. Having them in line was awful. Whatever correction they achieved was not worth the wet blanket they threw on the fire. If the speakers are not very good then I don't notice the bad amplifier or the other circuits in the way. I have some Visonic David's that I use on a shop bench and I run them with some 80's Panasonic "Class A" amp. The tone controls seem to help. That same amp can make a good speaker sound like a tin can.
What I find interesting about this miniDSP approach and especially the minDIGI approach is that the bits get manipulated before they get to the DAC. It means an extra DAC for a bi-amped speaker, but they have come way down in price. So, I am curious at how this is going to work. I could easily spend this amount on good passive crossovers for this 2-way system. But I am hopeful that doing the separation and filter ahead of the DAC will not lead to the same problem of putting circuits between the source and the speaker.
Maybe I am missing something. I am very aware that there are actual engineers here. I have never been accused of being an engineer.
Yes, I was suggesting IB for max LF extension, since you wanted to reproduce very low organ notes, I think.
But if you are renting, that is NG.
Amps are another topic, perhaps for a different section of this site... very complex, not simple.
One of the motivators for horns is that you can use essentially "too low" power amps just fine. These too low power amps include things like silly little DHT triodes. When done just right, they can be particularly lovely and "musical" to listen to. Impossible to use with standard sensitivity drivers. Pretty much fine with 109-100dB/1w compression drivers. Thus the allure.
So no matter what it is a great idea to go direct to the driver with an amp in this situation.
There are also very cool lower power solid state amps to consider with horns, including a "proper implementation" of the F5 amp (which is not as simple as it may seem).
Otoh, I feel that one needs "normal power" amps for things like the 15" driver, even high sensitivity prosound drivers or "golden age" drivers. Here the problem is that the "golden age" drivers have limited power handling, so caution is essential when running an amp of higher power with older drivers.
The miniDSP thing certainly has its merits. How it ultimately sounds will depend on at minimum how the output DAC units perform. They are inexpensive enough, so one could just buy and listen to...
Today one can go out and self record two mic material at high sample rates and use that for a reference.
I am a proponent of hanging mics out a pair of windows and listening using your system (close the windows, eh?). It is stunning how much different/better live sound is compared to recorded sound - on the same system (yours)!
But if you are renting, that is NG.
Amps are another topic, perhaps for a different section of this site... very complex, not simple.
One of the motivators for horns is that you can use essentially "too low" power amps just fine. These too low power amps include things like silly little DHT triodes. When done just right, they can be particularly lovely and "musical" to listen to. Impossible to use with standard sensitivity drivers. Pretty much fine with 109-100dB/1w compression drivers. Thus the allure.
So no matter what it is a great idea to go direct to the driver with an amp in this situation.
There are also very cool lower power solid state amps to consider with horns, including a "proper implementation" of the F5 amp (which is not as simple as it may seem).
Otoh, I feel that one needs "normal power" amps for things like the 15" driver, even high sensitivity prosound drivers or "golden age" drivers. Here the problem is that the "golden age" drivers have limited power handling, so caution is essential when running an amp of higher power with older drivers.
The miniDSP thing certainly has its merits. How it ultimately sounds will depend on at minimum how the output DAC units perform. They are inexpensive enough, so one could just buy and listen to...
Today one can go out and self record two mic material at high sample rates and use that for a reference.
I am a proponent of hanging mics out a pair of windows and listening using your system (close the windows, eh?). It is stunning how much different/better live sound is compared to recorded sound - on the same system (yours)!
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I am not sure if my damage deposit would cover the holes I would have to put in the ceiling. But, come to think of it, the likelihood of my landlord lurking on this forum is nil. And I am capable of patching... Actually, there is a gas log "fireplace" in the next room den that is substantially open to the living room. I have eyed it for an IB sub cab. Two sheets of ply covering that puppy and I would be set.
I have been watching the discussions of DAC and DSP and still don't know what they sound like. I have had bad luck with "studio" gear from pro music shops. So I don't know where to place this equipment. Good spec sheets do not always make good listening in the home but might work fine for sound reinforcement outside the home. The pro amplifiers, speakers, and equalizers I have tried out over the years were dreadful with my reference speakers and barely acceptable with my middling home audio stuff. The worst of it was a Behringer headphone amp that turned my HD650's into ham radio sounding headsets. I have an ART310 crossover in the garage that sounds ok with amps and speakers that belong in the garage. It sounds terrible with the indoor equipment. So the jury is out until this summer when I pick up the digital miniDSP. That should be interesting.
I forgot to ask. I see where the 418B was used in A7's and M19 late 70's, but it has different spec's. Other than not going as low as the 416-C though, how well will it blend with the 811B's at 800Hz? I am less concerned with getting the absolute bottom out of this speaker as I think about it. I have other subs I can pull into the room when I need them.
They can be had for much less than the 416C's.
Stick with the 416. And please, don't cross the 811 @800Hz. If you do, you'll have to join the 811 Horn Haters Club.* 😉 You should cross at 1200-1600Hz, try for 4th order acoustic, which may mean a staggered 3rd order electrical. And use some EQ on that thing! Mostly it needs a broad dip thru the middle of the range to flatten it.
Now, you may find some new fancy driver that will play clean down to an 800Hz high pass on that horn, but I doubt it.
*dues paid semi-annually to Bear
Now, you may find some new fancy driver that will play clean down to an 800Hz high pass on that horn, but I doubt it.
*dues paid semi-annually to Bear
The 418B was a musical instrument [MI] driver, so was never used in the M19 and ill suited for ~full-range HIFI/HT apps unless used with a separate sub system due to its < 1 mm Xmax.
Note too that it's got an AlNiCo motor, so any around still worth owning will tend to be more expensive than the ferrite motored 'C' model as well as likely to need draining, remagnetizing and even then may not get back to spec. Pano unfortunately can tell you how expensive it can get. Ditto the 416B, which was used in the M19 originally and later replaced with the 'C' after the cost of cobalt skyrocketed.
An 811/800 Hz XO is strictly for PA apps without significant mods to the horn or if you use an early XO with its tapped auto-former and drive it with a period correct high output amp, preferably with variable DF tone controls.
For < a ~0.5 ohm output impedance, the M19's ~1200 Hz XO with its variable selving and CD horn EQ is desired along with the M19's foam surround or similar, which for a HIFI app is ideally required regardless to damp its bell modes and massive reflections back to the throat. Note that some component values may need changing since you have the weak motor 806 drivers and probably ancient work hardened alum. [shrill] diaphragms or worse, Symbiotik prosound units that tend to sound like ripping sheet metal when pushed.
GM
Note too that it's got an AlNiCo motor, so any around still worth owning will tend to be more expensive than the ferrite motored 'C' model as well as likely to need draining, remagnetizing and even then may not get back to spec. Pano unfortunately can tell you how expensive it can get. Ditto the 416B, which was used in the M19 originally and later replaced with the 'C' after the cost of cobalt skyrocketed.
An 811/800 Hz XO is strictly for PA apps without significant mods to the horn or if you use an early XO with its tapped auto-former and drive it with a period correct high output amp, preferably with variable DF tone controls.
For < a ~0.5 ohm output impedance, the M19's ~1200 Hz XO with its variable selving and CD horn EQ is desired along with the M19's foam surround or similar, which for a HIFI app is ideally required regardless to damp its bell modes and massive reflections back to the throat. Note that some component values may need changing since you have the weak motor 806 drivers and probably ancient work hardened alum. [shrill] diaphragms or worse, Symbiotik prosound units that tend to sound like ripping sheet metal when pushed.
GM
An 802 will IF a period correct N800 series XO is used, which actually XO's the horn at around 1 kHz. Much later, Altec switched to a cost cutting 'textbook' 800 Hz XO that is too low and made worse when the 804 or 806 driver is used if EQ isn't used to alter its response and of course the 511 suffered a similar fate at the same time [1970 IIRC].
GM
I think that in the end you will find what others who have traveled this path have found. But, it's a nice hike. As long as you're not terribly concerned about the differential between the resale value of the gear and the cost put into the project. 😀
In general terms, even IF one identifies a 15" driver that goes ok up to something like an 811, it just won't do bass. If you get one that does bass, it's not likely to make it up high enough in good form.
Why don't you consider buying something like a pair of Altec 1003 horns, and eliminate the big problems in one swell foop? This rather than spending bucks trying to make a pig fly?
ooops... I meant a system that will work well out of pieces that don't actually fit all that well... sorry. 😛
In general terms, even IF one identifies a 15" driver that goes ok up to something like an 811, it just won't do bass. If you get one that does bass, it's not likely to make it up high enough in good form.
Why don't you consider buying something like a pair of Altec 1003 horns, and eliminate the big problems in one swell foop? This rather than spending bucks trying to make a pig fly?
ooops... I meant a system that will work well out of pieces that don't actually fit all that well... sorry. 😛
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