I've had my eye on these Airborne units for sometime. Unfortuantely I can't seem to find to much info online regarding their performance.
https://solen.ca/pub/index.php?cata...&niveau1=&niveau2=&niveau3=&s1=14&s2=&s3=&s4=
I'm playing with the idea of using these in some bass support stands. I'd likely want to cross them over at or around 180hz. I could be way out of line here though and need to do some more reading.
Have to focus on getting these done for now!
https://solen.ca/pub/index.php?cata...&niveau1=&niveau2=&niveau3=&s1=14&s2=&s3=&s4=
I'm playing with the idea of using these in some bass support stands. I'd likely want to cross them over at or around 180hz. I could be way out of line here though and need to do some more reading.
Have to focus on getting these done for now!
Hint. If you want to use the A7.3's at anything more than background levels, you have to high-pass them and use a woofer at the bottom. I do this in my HT. The A7.3's are high-passed at ~150Hz. They can take loads of power and get crazy loud and no significant FM distortion. The A12P's are enough bigger that FM distortion is not nearly as significant as the A7.3's
Either you have a different idea of "background levels" than me or the cabs they were put in were not ideal.
The several A7's I've heard have all been able to reproduce just about any type of music at reasonable levels, with no discernible worsening of the sound as the volume went up to quite above normal conversation level.
The "FM distortion" effects (dubious term in this realm) you blame has been shown, even though they exist in some way, to have very little bearing on perceived audio quality in double blind tests.
If you really heard something (don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting you, we all know what a colossal role the psychology of expectation plays, even to experts), it might be down to overexcursion, due to the cab?
"FAST" has it's place definitely, at louder volumes (than above loud conversation, IE 75dB'ish) and with smaller and lower Qts drivers, but I think the A7 is pretty rare in its abilities.
Yeah, probably Bob was meaning IM . Inter modulation.
About the wooden cone speaker...well . IT'S A WOODEN CONE SPEAKER
sorry for the capital 😀😛
Recently I saw a passive radiator similar to that : just a wooden circle with
a foam surround, and a weight in the center to 'tune' it.
About the wooden cone speaker...well . IT'S A WOODEN CONE SPEAKER
sorry for the capital 😀😛
Recently I saw a passive radiator similar to that : just a wooden circle with
a foam surround, and a weight in the center to 'tune' it.
I would not challenge Bob's experience with Alpair drivers. Rumor has it that his speaker designs around the Alpair drivers are quite good.
That said, I think there are a lot of room dependencies as well as speaker and listening positions to consider. I am listening in a 14 x 26 foot room but with a nearfield optimized speaker placement and seating position (about 6 feet from the speakers). I can detect the IM effects at high listening levels on large orchestral recordings as congestion and a foreshortening of the image. That's a signal to me that the levels are too high (and they are high when I hear those anomalies).
I find the A-7.3 Pencils nicely detailed and holographic until they are "over driven" for my tastes. Even at the listening position and speaker placement I use the bass is nice, but ultimately not as deep or full-bodied as I like. Missing that "bottom octave" or so needed to properly reproduce some orchestral bass instruments. Both awfully good for a driver with that cone area.
I might suggest that other room placements and listening positions would trigger the qualities Bob describes at lower relative listening levels. Show conditions in hotel rooms are possibly the worst in my experience.
That said, I think there are a lot of room dependencies as well as speaker and listening positions to consider. I am listening in a 14 x 26 foot room but with a nearfield optimized speaker placement and seating position (about 6 feet from the speakers). I can detect the IM effects at high listening levels on large orchestral recordings as congestion and a foreshortening of the image. That's a signal to me that the levels are too high (and they are high when I hear those anomalies).
I find the A-7.3 Pencils nicely detailed and holographic until they are "over driven" for my tastes. Even at the listening position and speaker placement I use the bass is nice, but ultimately not as deep or full-bodied as I like. Missing that "bottom octave" or so needed to properly reproduce some orchestral bass instruments. Both awfully good for a driver with that cone area.
I might suggest that other room placements and listening positions would trigger the qualities Bob describes at lower relative listening levels. Show conditions in hotel rooms are possibly the worst in my experience.
One is a subset of the other.Yeah, probably Bob was meaning IM . Inter modulation.
And it's been shown to not really be problem with well constructed real world speakers.
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Real world speakers...
That's why I try to keep 'em suspended.
Just keep everything indipendent mechanically, vibrationally
Stands or floorstanding speakers are so ooooold
That's why I try to keep 'em suspended.
Just keep everything indipendent mechanically, vibrationally
Stands or floorstanding speakers are so ooooold

Whether my designs are good or not, I spend a day in a ~300ft^2 hotel room with a pair of speakers, A7.3's and A12P. SPL was kept to ~75dB at the couch ~10'. Both were played full range. The music was generally jazz and classic rock. It was immediately obvious to EVERYONE that the A7.3's were congested and laboring when compared to the A12P's. My previous experience with the A7's has been almost exclusively and tops over an H-baffle and as HT mains crossed at 150Hz. The A7's are wonderful when not bass loaded. They don't hack it as full range. This is not news. This has been discussed here before and at length. If you want to go full range, use the A10.2 or A12P.
As far as the nonexistence of of FM distortion, OK, call is IM, call it Doepler, I am amused at your denial. Please supply URL's for the double blind tests.
Bob
As far as the nonexistence of of FM distortion, OK, call is IM, call it Doepler, I am amused at your denial. Please supply URL's for the double blind tests.
Bob
Doppler Distortion in loudspeakers
Skip to the end if you want what is important to this discussion.
And
The audibility of Doppler distortion in loudspeakers | Browse - Journal of the Acoustical Society of America
Edit:
On the other hand to be fair:
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1104red/index.html
But they are talking excursion starting at 1mm and going up for an audible difference, which I have never seen any quality fullrange do on a frequent basis.
Skip to the end if you want what is important to this discussion.
And
The audibility of Doppler distortion in loudspeakers | Browse - Journal of the Acoustical Society of America
Edit:
On the other hand to be fair:
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1104red/index.html
But they are talking excursion starting at 1mm and going up for an audible difference, which I have never seen any quality fullrange do on a frequent basis.
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I promise I will read those articles. I'm still not too old to learn.
Ref your edit: Bingo! What would you expect excursion to be playing a kick drum 10'from the speaker @ 75dB. It will exceed 1mm.
Bob
Ref your edit: Bingo! What would you expect excursion to be playing a kick drum 10'from the speaker @ 75dB. It will exceed 1mm.
Bob
The key words in that part was "frequent basis". 🙂 The infrequent bass transient will mask any HF distortion to a degree that it isn't audible.
This type of distortion is of course something that two-way and to a lesser degree three-way speakers also suffer from.
A two-way that has a midwoofer also has the distortion type right in the sensitive 2k-5khz band - a place in the spectrum that is also already plagued by the other ailments of that type of speaker. Point being, that this is not something that is exclusive to smaller fullrangers, just a bit different in nature there.
This type of distortion is of course something that two-way and to a lesser degree three-way speakers also suffer from.
A two-way that has a midwoofer also has the distortion type right in the sensitive 2k-5khz band - a place in the spectrum that is also already plagued by the other ailments of that type of speaker. Point being, that this is not something that is exclusive to smaller fullrangers, just a bit different in nature there.
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Very informative exchange! I was on a roll yesturday regarding the build. We managed to get all our panels planed to thickness and cut to size. Unfortuanetly our router died as soon as we started the dovetails so im out of buisness for a few days while we wait for a replacement part.
In the meantime I've been enjoying listening to the Alpairs as the break in. In fact, I've talked them up so much that my father is building a set as well!
In the meantime I've been enjoying listening to the Alpairs as the break in. In fact, I've talked them up so much that my father is building a set as well!
It was immediately obvious to EVERYONE that the A7.3's were congested and laboring when compared to the A12P's.
Bob
Hi Bob,
You've done allot of good work, producing very good looking and excellent performing systems. I've got allot of sympathy for your "bigger is better" enthusiasm. As you know I'm busy extending the usable range of Alpair 10 drivers (new 10 metal and paper coned versions) but some care needs to taken when making bold statements about bass augmentation as listening tastes/needs vary. Granted any small driver like to Alpair 7 won't deliver as much LF as larger units, but I worry that a "vigorous" assertion on the need for bass augmentation will mislead many potential users.
Much will depend on box design, room conditions and personal listening tastes as to whether a small full range driver will provide sufficient low range. Here's details of my own set-up where there's no sub in site. I'm more than happy with this system's bass capability.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/216073-marks-new-home-set-up.html
There's allot of guys using Alpair 7's in Pensil 7 boxes who are happy the system's low range performance and don't need/want woofs/subs.
Naturally, many users will want/desire larger full-rangers or need/want bass woof assistance and thats 100% fine. Technically, I'm always more comfortable seeing guys deploying larger Markaudio drivers as they have better driven load capacity, reducing over-load risk. But its also important to acknowledge variety in the needs/requirements of others who will be happy with a low powered pure single point source set-up as they want/desire the finesse of a smaller full range driver system.
Thanks
Mark.
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We managed to get all our panels planed to thickness and cut to size. Unfortuanetly our router died as soon as we started the dovetails so im out of buisness for a few days while we wait for a replacement part.
That will teach you to be ambitious! 🙂 But seriously, apart from bragging rights and the aesthetics, is dovetail joins really necessary with that panel thickness? Well clamped butjoints should do the job just fine and be easier to make airtight too boot.
Dovetails are probably overkill, absolutely lol. But if you've got the gear and someone who knows how to use it, why not?
Ill be siliconing the snots out of all the internal joints so it should be good and air tight.. Fingers crossed!
Ill be siliconing the snots out of all the internal joints so it should be good and air tight.. Fingers crossed!
Hi Bob,
You've done allot of good work, producing very good looking and excellent performing systems. I've got allot of sympathy for your "bigger is better" enthusiasm. As you know I'm busy extending the usable range of Alpair 10 drivers (new 10 metal and paper coned versions) but some care needs to taken when making bold statements about bass augmentation as listening tastes/needs vary. Granted any small driver like to Alpair 7 won't deliver as much LF as larger units, but I worry that a "vigorous" assertion on the need for bass augmentation will mislead many potential users.
Much will depend on box design, room conditions and personal listening tastes as to whether a small full range driver will provide sufficient low range. Here's details of my own set-up where there's no sub in site. I'm more than happy with this system's bass capability.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/216073-marks-new-home-set-up.html
There's allot of guys using Alpair 7's in Pensil 7 boxes who are happy the system's low range performance and don't need/want woofs/subs.
Naturally, many users will want/desire larger full-rangers or need/want bass woof assistance and thats 100% fine. Technically, I'm always more comfortable seeing guys deploying larger Markaudio drivers as they have better driven load capacity, reducing over-load risk. But its also important to acknowledge variety in the needs/requirements of others who will be happy with a low powered pure single point source set-up as they want/desire the finesse of a smaller full range driver system.
Thanks
Mark.
I am "breaking in" a pair of the Alpair 7's in a BK-12 enclosure [w/baffles] and I am surprised at how well they perform on their own. Removing the second magnet was required to maximize the performance in this enclosure. I do have a sub in line and use it when I feel it's necessary. They are wonderful drivers. Currently pushing them with a Jolida 202BRC.
These will find their home in FH3 enclosures in the near future.
Well, here they are. I'm waiting for some binding posts to arrive as the ones I have are not long enough, but save for the speaker wire hanging from the ports; they are done!
I have to say, now that they are mounted into proper enclosures, these things sound excellent.
I have to say, now that they are mounted into proper enclosures, these things sound excellent.
Attachments
I need to find some nice black screws to replace those ugly silver ones though!
We might be building a set of Alpair 10.3s ( when they are available) or 12ps in a larger tl soon too. Im interested to see how they compare!
We might be building a set of Alpair 10.3s ( when they are available) or 12ps in a larger tl soon too. Im interested to see how they compare!
I need to find some nice black screws to replace those ugly silver ones though!
The Alpair 7 comes with black screws.
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