First build, Alpair 10.3 advice appreciated
So after researching and reading and researching and lurking around here, nearly buying and then not and finding it near on impossible to make my mind up I jumped in and bought some Alpair 10.3(M) drivers this weekend.
I've never built speakers before so thought I'd start 'straightforward' with some fullrangers before taking on a mutli-way setup and crossover mayhem.
I was almost 100% decided on using the Classic GCR Mar-Ken 10.2 cabinet but then have been drawn to the Golden Ratio Bass reflex cabinet on the MarkAudio site (Alpair 10 Gold | Markaudio
Can anyone give me some idea as to likely different sonic differences between these cabs? They will likely be placed very close to a rear wall, in a room (open plan kitchen dining room) around 4mx6.5m. I would have gone floorstanding but WAF ruled that out and am having to go standmounter (albeit likely wall mounted). These will be for music only, amped by a Fatman tube hybrid.
Anyone with any guidance, and other tips for a first time builder, would be greatly appreciated.
So after researching and reading and researching and lurking around here, nearly buying and then not and finding it near on impossible to make my mind up I jumped in and bought some Alpair 10.3(M) drivers this weekend.
I've never built speakers before so thought I'd start 'straightforward' with some fullrangers before taking on a mutli-way setup and crossover mayhem.
I was almost 100% decided on using the Classic GCR Mar-Ken 10.2 cabinet but then have been drawn to the Golden Ratio Bass reflex cabinet on the MarkAudio site (Alpair 10 Gold | Markaudio
Can anyone give me some idea as to likely different sonic differences between these cabs? They will likely be placed very close to a rear wall, in a room (open plan kitchen dining room) around 4mx6.5m. I would have gone floorstanding but WAF ruled that out and am having to go standmounter (albeit likely wall mounted). These will be for music only, amped by a Fatman tube hybrid.
Anyone with any guidance, and other tips for a first time builder, would be greatly appreciated.
CGR Mar-Ken10.3/A10p has been posted at frugal-phile.com, they have been made a little easier to build than the ones for the A10.2
dave
Well this may have already been addressed in other forum threads, but it bears repeating that the revisions to TSP from the 10.2 t0 10.3 & 10P were enough to require adjustments to volume and/or tuning of enclosure designs, so make sure you're looking at the latest plans - which I don't think are reflected on Mark's site.
So the only real advice I'd give - and don't worry, no controversy here
would be don't use MDF; take the time to find and invest in "Baltic" Birch or equivalent high density (ply-count) plywood only.
So the only real advice I'd give - and don't worry, no controversy here
would be don't use MDF; take the time to find and invest in "Baltic" Birch or equivalent high density (ply-count) plywood only.So the only real advice I'd give - and don't worry, no controversy here
What he said. much cleaner to work with and much easier to finish!
Where in the uk are you? and how well equipped to make these cabinets.
I have a cabinet makers workshop, however still get a company called AvonPly to cut all my sheet goods, send them a parts list and get back absolutely perfectly cut 'flat pack' cabinet. Expensive for ply, but cheap cutting.
You really won't regret using birch ply, so pretty untreated.
I have a cabinet makers workshop, however still get a company called AvonPly to cut all my sheet goods, send them a parts list and get back absolutely perfectly cut 'flat pack' cabinet. Expensive for ply, but cheap cutting.
You really won't regret using birch ply, so pretty untreated.
Thanks everyone - looks like I'll be going with the CGR MarKen 10.3 enclosures. I'd not really thought twice about using anything other than MDF. I've got a good local timber merchant so should be able to pick up some decent ply.
I've got access to a circular saw and router so was thinking of diy-ing the cabinets. I'm going to either paint or vinyl wrap the outside so ultimate finish does not have to be absolutely 100% perfect I guess.
How much does the machining cost roughly? I'm torn between wanting to do the build myself, but also not wanting to bodge it. Principle concern up till now has been cutting the baffle and rebates - other parts I wasn't too concerned with. Now I'm wondering how good my skills are!!!
I've got access to a circular saw and router so was thinking of diy-ing the cabinets. I'm going to either paint or vinyl wrap the outside so ultimate finish does not have to be absolutely 100% perfect I guess.
How much does the machining cost roughly? I'm torn between wanting to do the build myself, but also not wanting to bodge it. Principle concern up till now has been cutting the baffle and rebates - other parts I wasn't too concerned with. Now I'm wondering how good my skills are!!!
gsswallow,
There is plenty of work to do post cutting - gluing together the pieces, installing the lining and the binding posts, then veneering and finishing. Actually more to contribute towards final fit and finish.
The P10 Mar-Kens are solid designs - I have built a few and have found that they provide tuneful and articulate bass; other BR designs might give more bass or lower bass, but the high aspect ratio slot of the Kens have great(er) finesse most of the times.
There is plenty of work to do post cutting - gluing together the pieces, installing the lining and the binding posts, then veneering and finishing. Actually more to contribute towards final fit and finish.
The P10 Mar-Kens are solid designs - I have built a few and have found that they provide tuneful and articulate bass; other BR designs might give more bass or lower bass, but the high aspect ratio slot of the Kens have great(er) finesse most of the times.
ps: Avon Plywood are seriously cheap, (cheaper than paying myself). I had them cut and lip walnut veneered mdf, came back perfect, (except for my silly error of lipping the wrong side).
I imagine the cutting of the 20 bits needed wouldn't cost more than £15/£20 and an accuracy of 0.2mm.
£12.5 delivery charge though. If you download the spreadsheet from the website you can submit a cutting list and they will give you a quote, not obliged to take it. Just remember that with the lengths you designate the grain direction, ie: 1000mm x 500mm the grain will run along the length 1000mm.
I imagine the cutting of the 20 bits needed wouldn't cost more than £15/£20 and an accuracy of 0.2mm.
£12.5 delivery charge though. If you download the spreadsheet from the website you can submit a cutting list and they will give you a quote, not obliged to take it. Just remember that with the lengths you designate the grain direction, ie: 1000mm x 500mm the grain will run along the length 1000mm.
I think I got a pretty good deal from a company advertising on eBay. Got all the ply, cut to size and delivered for £70. Still had to cut baffle holes and some other odd bits but the pieces were absolutely spot on in terms of dimensions.
I'm thinking of turning this thread into a build log - I made a few rookie mistakes but am generally pleased with how things are turning out so far...
One question though - I mis-measured the gap at the back of the vent shelf (the horizontal shelf which creates the vent) so it is actually 17/18mm rather than 15 mm as specified. (Rookie mistake #1 - never make any assumptions). This has the knock on effect that the baffle is about 2-3mm proud of the sides. Is this critical? I can sand/fill so that baffle sits flush, and the gap at the back of the vent shelf is 15mm. What do the experts think? Will it be OK if I leave as is. I don't mind the look of it, but am fussed if the sound is affected.
I'm thinking of turning this thread into a build log - I made a few rookie mistakes but am generally pleased with how things are turning out so far...
One question though - I mis-measured the gap at the back of the vent shelf (the horizontal shelf which creates the vent) so it is actually 17/18mm rather than 15 mm as specified. (Rookie mistake #1 - never make any assumptions). This has the knock on effect that the baffle is about 2-3mm proud of the sides. Is this critical? I can sand/fill so that baffle sits flush, and the gap at the back of the vent shelf is 15mm. What do the experts think? Will it be OK if I leave as is. I don't mind the look of it, but am fussed if the sound is affected.
Build log
So I thought I'd put together my experience of building these 'simple' speakers, with some basic mistakes and learnings along the way.
Here's where I started, a box of beautifully cut (not by me) birch plywood and some plans:
My main fear was the cutting of the baffle and recess with a dremel (albeit with a jig) would not be adequate, but it worked OK. Not perfect, but close enough. If I make anymore - I'll be buying a router though.
Second issue - and I can't believe I didn't read or learn this but the first box I only glued together (no screws or pins). I ended up only 1-2 mm or so out, but it was a pain - even with bar clamps.
The second box was screw and glue. Much cleaner, easier and perfect angles.
So in 2 days the speakers were largely complete, and with a few other minor changes they are now running in.
I'm going to finish them with white gloss vinyl, but I'm waiting to get hold of my joinery mate who will bevel off the edges for me first.
So, questions and observations.
I have used speaker cable for internal wiring - would that be a problem? Also, I haven't soldered to terminals, simply used some crimped terminal rings, assume this is OK?
The cabinets are damped with sponge underlay, roughly 10mm thick, assume this is alright as well.
Listening observations:
I have to say I am underwhelmed at the moment, I know they only have about 50-60 hours break-in so far but they seem very polite, almost cold or 'thin'. OK, so the soundstage is good and on single instrument stuff (piano, guitar) they are very precise, but lack a lot of warmth. I know people say that they open up a lot with time but they are going to have to improve a helluvalot to meet the expectations I have based on views on this forum. So much so I wonder if I've got a problem somewhere. What are the things I should look for or change? Maybe add some polyfill? Solder the connections instead? Just wait...
If I interpret user reviews and break in change, it sounds to me like they maybe start at 6-7 out of 10 out of the box, and then improve to about a 9 out of 10. Do they change THAT much? Seems crazy. I knew I was taking a bit of a risk with going fullrange but I read up a lot and was convinced that I could get the natural warmth I crave, and decent bass extension through these Alpair 10.3's in these enclosures. Maybe I should have gone with the Pensil design? Or gone back to my original plan of a kit from IPL Acoustics ( I know, totally different type of speaker!!!!!). Making these decisions is so hard when its impossible to listen before diving in.
What do you guys think, given the experience you have with these drivers?
So I thought I'd put together my experience of building these 'simple' speakers, with some basic mistakes and learnings along the way.
Here's where I started, a box of beautifully cut (not by me) birch plywood and some plans:
My main fear was the cutting of the baffle and recess with a dremel (albeit with a jig) would not be adequate, but it worked OK. Not perfect, but close enough. If I make anymore - I'll be buying a router though.
Second issue - and I can't believe I didn't read or learn this but the first box I only glued together (no screws or pins). I ended up only 1-2 mm or so out, but it was a pain - even with bar clamps.
The second box was screw and glue. Much cleaner, easier and perfect angles.
So in 2 days the speakers were largely complete, and with a few other minor changes they are now running in.
I'm going to finish them with white gloss vinyl, but I'm waiting to get hold of my joinery mate who will bevel off the edges for me first.
So, questions and observations.
I have used speaker cable for internal wiring - would that be a problem? Also, I haven't soldered to terminals, simply used some crimped terminal rings, assume this is OK?
The cabinets are damped with sponge underlay, roughly 10mm thick, assume this is alright as well.
Listening observations:
I have to say I am underwhelmed at the moment, I know they only have about 50-60 hours break-in so far but they seem very polite, almost cold or 'thin'. OK, so the soundstage is good and on single instrument stuff (piano, guitar) they are very precise, but lack a lot of warmth. I know people say that they open up a lot with time but they are going to have to improve a helluvalot to meet the expectations I have based on views on this forum. So much so I wonder if I've got a problem somewhere. What are the things I should look for or change? Maybe add some polyfill? Solder the connections instead? Just wait...
If I interpret user reviews and break in change, it sounds to me like they maybe start at 6-7 out of 10 out of the box, and then improve to about a 9 out of 10. Do they change THAT much? Seems crazy. I knew I was taking a bit of a risk with going fullrange but I read up a lot and was convinced that I could get the natural warmth I crave, and decent bass extension through these Alpair 10.3's in these enclosures. Maybe I should have gone with the Pensil design? Or gone back to my original plan of a kit from IPL Acoustics ( I know, totally different type of speaker!!!!!). Making these decisions is so hard when its impossible to listen before diving in.
What do you guys think, given the experience you have with these drivers?
Attachments
gee, enclosure looks vaguely familiar
Nice assembly job for a first time build - for the next build, if you're planning in advance to cover with vinyl / veneer, don't be afraid to use an air powered brad nailer. They make for very fast assembly and need far less filling/sanding to prep for finishing, and on small boxes such as these, wood screws are probably overkill.
And yes, break-in is real - while I haven't heard a pair of 10.3s that recently returned to casa Fonken after a sojourn up-island, by all accounts they're substantially improved by the process.
Nice assembly job for a first time build - for the next build, if you're planning in advance to cover with vinyl / veneer, don't be afraid to use an air powered brad nailer. They make for very fast assembly and need far less filling/sanding to prep for finishing, and on small boxes such as these, wood screws are probably overkill.
And yes, break-in is real - while I haven't heard a pair of 10.3s that recently returned to casa Fonken after a sojourn up-island, by all accounts they're substantially improved by the process.
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Speaker wire is OK, we recommend strands pulled from Cat 5/6 as speaker wire. Crimpedconnectors are OK but won't be as goodas solder.
I'm gonna guess that, that won't worknear as well as something porous (and natural better then man-made). Make sure that the damping does not hinder the inside entrace to the vent.
Also make sure the box has no leaks.
dave
As to the question that I missed buried in the last paragraph of post #17 above, I think it fair to say that the Pensil enclosure would develop deeper bass response than the CGR MarKen - they are based on different operating principles and tuned differently. Just don't ask the question "which is better" - the answer could be "both - at different things"
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