Has anyone ever used Alesis reference amps in there home stereo setup? I’m thinking of going solid-state for now until I can afford some tube mono block type amps. Would this work for good hi-fi?
Alesis RS300 Reference Series Stereo 300W Power Amp: 279.99
2 rack spaces give you 150W per channel @ 4 ohms, 90W per channel @ 8 ohms, 300W bridged @ 8 ohms, and studio-quality performance. Signal to noise >105dB, 10Hz-70kHz frequency response, and distortion of <0.02% @ 4 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz. Cool and quiet, it features convection cooling so there's no fan adding noise to your studio environment.
Or
Alesis RS150 Reference Series Stereo 150W Power Amp: 199.99
2 rack spaces give you 75W per channel into 4 ohms, 45W per channel into 8 ohms, 150W bridged into 8 ohms, and studio performance. Signal to noise >105dB, 10Hz - 70kHz frequency response, and distortion of <0.02% @4 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz.
Just wondering if there are better amps out there for the quality at that price range. For speakers on planning on building some form speakerbuilder.net ; a pair of Eros and some Dayton II’s, any other recommendations are welcome.
🙂
Alesis RS300 Reference Series Stereo 300W Power Amp: 279.99
2 rack spaces give you 150W per channel @ 4 ohms, 90W per channel @ 8 ohms, 300W bridged @ 8 ohms, and studio-quality performance. Signal to noise >105dB, 10Hz-70kHz frequency response, and distortion of <0.02% @ 4 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz. Cool and quiet, it features convection cooling so there's no fan adding noise to your studio environment.
Or
Alesis RS150 Reference Series Stereo 150W Power Amp: 199.99
2 rack spaces give you 75W per channel into 4 ohms, 45W per channel into 8 ohms, 150W bridged into 8 ohms, and studio performance. Signal to noise >105dB, 10Hz - 70kHz frequency response, and distortion of <0.02% @4 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz.
Just wondering if there are better amps out there for the quality at that price range. For speakers on planning on building some form speakerbuilder.net ; a pair of Eros and some Dayton II’s, any other recommendations are welcome.
🙂
From my expeirence these sort of amps sound average usually because of their power supplies which are sometimes switch mode YUCK , usually hard in the mids and tops and if they do`nt sound hard there usually rolled off to the point of having no detail. Similar amps are Behringer the new Amcrons(crown) and alike.
If you want a stop gap amp that you`ll get your money back on get a second hand Yamaha P-2200 or P-2100 proper power supplies heaps of grunt 250rms 8ohms and cheap, their the only ones that come from that studio/pa type of amp that`s ok for hifi use (no fans, generous external heatsinks, big power supply 25kgs). their built to take a hammering and can almost double their wattage into 4ohms, they also have Alps Black Beauty gain controls at the input, the perfect passive for a cd player. You should be able to pick one up in tatty condition for $100.
Cheers George
If you want a stop gap amp that you`ll get your money back on get a second hand Yamaha P-2200 or P-2100 proper power supplies heaps of grunt 250rms 8ohms and cheap, their the only ones that come from that studio/pa type of amp that`s ok for hifi use (no fans, generous external heatsinks, big power supply 25kgs). their built to take a hammering and can almost double their wattage into 4ohms, they also have Alps Black Beauty gain controls at the input, the perfect passive for a cd player. You should be able to pick one up in tatty condition for $100.
Cheers George
In the measurable-non-subjective domain, well designed SMPS perform far better than the usual 50Hz supply with bulky toroidal transformers and huge expensive and exotic storage capacitors
SMPS are much lighter, use less space, are cheaper and some of its superior technical features could be : perfectly regulated output making the amplifier to double its power from 8 to 4 ohms or from 4 to 2 ohms [if the circuit has enough current capability] and to give an output power independent of mains voltage, milivolts of ripple on the output with full load versus tens of volts for a conventional 50Hz supply , common mode filtering so no RF flowing thorugh signal wires, multiple fully floating outputs for multichannel amplifiers with tight cross-regulation, etc..
The only flaw of SMPS is that anybody [even with little or no electronics knowledge] can connect a 50Hz transformer to a bridge rectifier and some caps to get a 'power supply' but designing and building a SMPS is a topic by itself with its own complexity [even DIY-building a SMPS would require detailed plans and explanations for proper transformer and inductor winding, heatsinking, etx..]
The human being tends to hate everyting it can't understand and to love everything it belives to understand [even if it's a false understanding]
SMPS are much lighter, use less space, are cheaper and some of its superior technical features could be : perfectly regulated output making the amplifier to double its power from 8 to 4 ohms or from 4 to 2 ohms [if the circuit has enough current capability] and to give an output power independent of mains voltage, milivolts of ripple on the output with full load versus tens of volts for a conventional 50Hz supply , common mode filtering so no RF flowing thorugh signal wires, multiple fully floating outputs for multichannel amplifiers with tight cross-regulation, etc..
The only flaw of SMPS is that anybody [even with little or no electronics knowledge] can connect a 50Hz transformer to a bridge rectifier and some caps to get a 'power supply' but designing and building a SMPS is a topic by itself with its own complexity [even DIY-building a SMPS would require detailed plans and explanations for proper transformer and inductor winding, heatsinking, etx..]
The human being tends to hate everyting it can't understand and to love everything it belives to understand [even if it's a false understanding]
I disagree, so far only one HIGH END manufacture has done a Switchmode power supply Power Amp thats worth listening to that i know of, that`s Linn Audio and it cost $8000.00us for the dear little thing, it got a good review but with some buts in Sterophile.
The measured response of the unit was average to say the least with alot of high frequency garbage breaking through from the smps to the amp, you can see this in the measurements that J.A. does which are very thorough and with good pictures to look at, now i do`nt think Linn are the be all and end all of power amps but they are very highly regarded and if they can`nt get a smps quite i doubt many can. Look at the likes of Mark Levinson, Krell,Rowland Research and countless others, of the real high end of power amps none of these use smp`s in their power amp designs, and those amps are huge, these amp can double their wattage from 8 to 4 to 2 ohms, it would be in these manufactures best intrest to use smp`s as their power supplies cost an absolute fortune to build. But they do`nt and they are the leaders as far as i`m concered in high end audio.
I doubt whether we will ever see the likes of Nelson Pass using an smp one of his monster power amps.
Please Nelson don`t tell me i`m wrong.
Cheers George
The measured response of the unit was average to say the least with alot of high frequency garbage breaking through from the smps to the amp, you can see this in the measurements that J.A. does which are very thorough and with good pictures to look at, now i do`nt think Linn are the be all and end all of power amps but they are very highly regarded and if they can`nt get a smps quite i doubt many can. Look at the likes of Mark Levinson, Krell,Rowland Research and countless others, of the real high end of power amps none of these use smp`s in their power amp designs, and those amps are huge, these amp can double their wattage from 8 to 4 to 2 ohms, it would be in these manufactures best intrest to use smp`s as their power supplies cost an absolute fortune to build. But they do`nt and they are the leaders as far as i`m concered in high end audio.
I doubt whether we will ever see the likes of Nelson Pass using an smp one of his monster power amps.
Please Nelson don`t tell me i`m wrong.
Cheers George
So what I’m getting from this is that these types of amps are very subjective in there nature; meaning some people like them and others do not. (kind of the like the whole audiophile hobby in general) So what do you recommend I use if I’m on a budget for used gear or inexpensive new gear?
I found those Yamaha P-2200’s on ebay for a hundred dollars, but I’m wondering why you think older technology is better then the newer gear form studio companies like Alesis, Mackie, Crown? How do these types of amps differ from Bryston, Proceed, Adcom, NAD, and others? Dose it matter which ones I chose to use?
I found those Yamaha P-2200’s on ebay for a hundred dollars, but I’m wondering why you think older technology is better then the newer gear form studio companies like Alesis, Mackie, Crown? How do these types of amps differ from Bryston, Proceed, Adcom, NAD, and others? Dose it matter which ones I chose to use?
> I found those Yamaha P-2200’s on ebay for a hundred dollars
A steal. Worth it, even with shipping (which will be a LOT).
> I’m wondering why you think older technology is better then the newer gear
Not all old technology is better.
But once in a while someone does things right. The Yammer 2200 amps are one example.
Note that generally, there hasn't been a ton of "progress" in the last 20 years. Good transistor amps have been possible since 1970, and by 1980 the design principles were available to anyone who looked into it. The Japanese have been publishing top-notch refinements for decades. But when it comes to production, the penny-pinchers usually shave things down to "good enough".
Sometimes a design slips past the penny-pinchers. The 2200 was fairly expensive and meant to be a show-piece of Yamaha's work. It wasn't no $8,000 amplifier, but it wasn't cost-shaved enough to hurt. A $10 pot instead of a good-enuff $1 pot, lots-lots of $2 transistors instead of just a lot of $1 transistors, etc.
I think the small 45W Alesis is a plain old 50/60Hz-iron-core power supply. It isn't very powerful, so it does not have the cost/WEIGHT pressures of the 200++Watt amplifiers that would tear their rack-ears off if done in 50Hz iron.
I'm not all sure the iron versus switch-mode makes a difference. But switch-mode "allows" smaller power capacitors. Overall the size and weight savings are compelling for modern megaWatt touring systems. But in the home, you want huge filter caps. With the plain 50/60Hz iron-core design, they had to give you big caps to control ripple, which also gives solid support for bass.
A steal. Worth it, even with shipping (which will be a LOT).
> I’m wondering why you think older technology is better then the newer gear
Not all old technology is better.
But once in a while someone does things right. The Yammer 2200 amps are one example.
Note that generally, there hasn't been a ton of "progress" in the last 20 years. Good transistor amps have been possible since 1970, and by 1980 the design principles were available to anyone who looked into it. The Japanese have been publishing top-notch refinements for decades. But when it comes to production, the penny-pinchers usually shave things down to "good enough".
Sometimes a design slips past the penny-pinchers. The 2200 was fairly expensive and meant to be a show-piece of Yamaha's work. It wasn't no $8,000 amplifier, but it wasn't cost-shaved enough to hurt. A $10 pot instead of a good-enuff $1 pot, lots-lots of $2 transistors instead of just a lot of $1 transistors, etc.
I think the small 45W Alesis is a plain old 50/60Hz-iron-core power supply. It isn't very powerful, so it does not have the cost/WEIGHT pressures of the 200++Watt amplifiers that would tear their rack-ears off if done in 50Hz iron.
I'm not all sure the iron versus switch-mode makes a difference. But switch-mode "allows" smaller power capacitors. Overall the size and weight savings are compelling for modern megaWatt touring systems. But in the home, you want huge filter caps. With the plain 50/60Hz iron-core design, they had to give you big caps to control ripple, which also gives solid support for bass.
Audiophile magazines are written to please audiophiles' minds
Audiophile gear is designed to please audiophile's eyes, no matter what is technically better
An 'audiophile amplifier' having bulky 50Hz transformer and storage caps is likely to sell far more units than a SMPS one, even if the 50Hz supply and amplifier performs technically worse
This happens due to audiophile and subjective people aceptance and is the reason why nobody uses SMPS in the audiophile market [it would cut sales] and nobody uses 50Hz supplies everywhere else [because normal people doesn't care about SMPS and it's cheaper]
Even a simple linear regulated supply [provided it doesn't run out of current/voltage] with small transformer and storage caps and lots of voltage drop and ripple on the unregulated side performs technically far better than a bulky transformer with big caps [technically it's by far the worst option but it's what audiophiles like to see inside the gear they buy]
I'm not an audiophile, I'm just and open mind and I prefer ferrite core transformers measuring 5cm by 5cm by 5cm, costing 5$ or less [plus winding costs] that operated at 100Khz can easily give 2KVA output with less than 10 milivolts voltage drop on the output if the topology is well regulated
I even got less than 0,0005 ohm output impedance in a 15V 120A current mode prototype and no overshoot nor ringing visible in the oscilloscope when cycling full-load/no-load, aren't 50Hz supplies absolutely ridiculous?
If nobody cares about a dozen of *volts* of 100Hz ripple [and its harmonics up to 20Khz as found in a 50Hz supply], why so much complaining about less than a dozen of milivolts of 100Khz or 200Khz ripple [and its harmonics found in a 50Khz or 100Khz design]
Just connect a speaker [with a couplig capacitor in series] to a 50Hz supply, add some load in order to draw a few amps and hear all those ugly ripple, subsonics and transients when load is added or removed [try cycling full-load vs no-load and cry], then connect the same speaker [and coupling capacitor] to the output of a good regulated SMPS, connect and disconnect full load and try to hear anything other than silence
Audiophile gear is designed to please audiophile's eyes, no matter what is technically better
An 'audiophile amplifier' having bulky 50Hz transformer and storage caps is likely to sell far more units than a SMPS one, even if the 50Hz supply and amplifier performs technically worse
This happens due to audiophile and subjective people aceptance and is the reason why nobody uses SMPS in the audiophile market [it would cut sales] and nobody uses 50Hz supplies everywhere else [because normal people doesn't care about SMPS and it's cheaper]
Even a simple linear regulated supply [provided it doesn't run out of current/voltage] with small transformer and storage caps and lots of voltage drop and ripple on the unregulated side performs technically far better than a bulky transformer with big caps [technically it's by far the worst option but it's what audiophiles like to see inside the gear they buy]
I'm not an audiophile, I'm just and open mind and I prefer ferrite core transformers measuring 5cm by 5cm by 5cm, costing 5$ or less [plus winding costs] that operated at 100Khz can easily give 2KVA output with less than 10 milivolts voltage drop on the output if the topology is well regulated
I even got less than 0,0005 ohm output impedance in a 15V 120A current mode prototype and no overshoot nor ringing visible in the oscilloscope when cycling full-load/no-load, aren't 50Hz supplies absolutely ridiculous?
If nobody cares about a dozen of *volts* of 100Hz ripple [and its harmonics up to 20Khz as found in a 50Hz supply], why so much complaining about less than a dozen of milivolts of 100Khz or 200Khz ripple [and its harmonics found in a 50Khz or 100Khz design]
Just connect a speaker [with a couplig capacitor in series] to a 50Hz supply, add some load in order to draw a few amps and hear all those ugly ripple, subsonics and transients when load is added or removed [try cycling full-load vs no-load and cry], then connect the same speaker [and coupling capacitor] to the output of a good regulated SMPS, connect and disconnect full load and try to hear anything other than silence
DJCHASE7, sounds like you may have ears , because you want in the end a pair of valve monoblocks, (antique sound at it`s best).
Ask your self DJCHASER why do you want the valves in the end, can`nt be that you want to heat up your room, must be because they sound good ,even with all that 2nd harmonic distortion, and heaven forbid no feedback 10x that distortion. No it`s the sound and that`s what i mean the older Yamaha P-2200 will sound better than the Alessi, and if you know what your doing, bring up the bias on them so the heatsinks are nice and warm at idle, and you`ll have a very sweet powerfull sounding amp.
They run stone cold from the factory, with hardly any bias on them because Yamaha want them indestructable even if they on the bottom of a rack pile with no air.
Cheers George
Ask your self DJCHASER why do you want the valves in the end, can`nt be that you want to heat up your room, must be because they sound good ,even with all that 2nd harmonic distortion, and heaven forbid no feedback 10x that distortion. No it`s the sound and that`s what i mean the older Yamaha P-2200 will sound better than the Alessi, and if you know what your doing, bring up the bias on them so the heatsinks are nice and warm at idle, and you`ll have a very sweet powerfull sounding amp.
They run stone cold from the factory, with hardly any bias on them because Yamaha want them indestructable even if they on the bottom of a rack pile with no air.
Cheers George
djchase7: Unless something is in my price range, I never let it enter my decision making. Thus, any amp with a good linear power supply will automatically be too expensive - at least that's how I understand your budget. That said, all this other talk about audiophile vs. budget pro gear is moot.
For the money, you could do a lot worse than a rack mount studio amp. Just about any consumer amp/receiver for the quoted prices will sound worse. NAD might be an exception, but I find that studio amps have more headroom. You might have to get interconnects with 1/4" plugs but it will be worth the extra $10.
I've heard the previous model RA-100(?) in the store demo'ing bottom-line Tannoy passive monitors and it is was mostly transparent. And this was compared to a Teac bookshelf amp driving Paradigm minis. The Tannoys were miles ahead of the Paradigms for the same price, but more importantly, the amps were transparent enough with a price difference of CAD$500.
No, that Alesis won't sound like a Bryston, but it doesn't cost like one either. Test other studio amps (Yorkville, etc.) in the same price range. They will all be better than consumer equipment in the same price point. What you give up is the beauty of consumer equipment, the remote control and a single volume control.
🙂ensen.
For the money, you could do a lot worse than a rack mount studio amp. Just about any consumer amp/receiver for the quoted prices will sound worse. NAD might be an exception, but I find that studio amps have more headroom. You might have to get interconnects with 1/4" plugs but it will be worth the extra $10.
I've heard the previous model RA-100(?) in the store demo'ing bottom-line Tannoy passive monitors and it is was mostly transparent. And this was compared to a Teac bookshelf amp driving Paradigm minis. The Tannoys were miles ahead of the Paradigms for the same price, but more importantly, the amps were transparent enough with a price difference of CAD$500.
No, that Alesis won't sound like a Bryston, but it doesn't cost like one either. Test other studio amps (Yorkville, etc.) in the same price range. They will all be better than consumer equipment in the same price point. What you give up is the beauty of consumer equipment, the remote control and a single volume control.
🙂ensen.
SMPS is generally better. I believe even NP has an article on that. The problem is as noted that it is not easy to build a good SMPS without specialist knowledge, and there are some paradigm misunderstandings when moving into the other dimension of power supplies called switch mode. One of the big problems is that you have to tacke noise signals and EMI to a larger extent than before.
Many however choose to build the cheapest SMPS possible and suffer the consequences giving all SMPS a bad reputation.
And by the way, there are other manufacturers who use SMPS and manage to create excellent sound even with relatively embryonic audio circuitry.
Petter
Many however choose to build the cheapest SMPS possible and suffer the consequences giving all SMPS a bad reputation.
And by the way, there are other manufacturers who use SMPS and manage to create excellent sound even with relatively embryonic audio circuitry.
Petter
OK, let`s ask GOD see if he`s listening, Nelson can you tell us why you have not used switch mode power supplies in your X or XA series power amps.
Thanks George
Thanks George
Of course, because audiophiles and subjectivists have their own philosopy telling them not to buy anything with PWM inside, and of course this would bring little profit, bad reputation and even bankrupt for any manufacturer triying to use PWM techniques
The business works this way, audiophiles and subjectivists expend huge amounts of money, manufacturers design attractive gear to get large profits [and everybody is happy 😀]
Specifications and performance don't matter, even 20% THD amplifiers working in open-loop with 0,5 damping factor and speakers placed randomly in an untreated reverberant room sound great to audiophiles and subjective people [the more expensive, fashioned and bulky the gear, the better the 'subjective experience']
As somebody says in its signature : "If it still does`nt sound any good, you have`nt spent enough money."
The business works this way, audiophiles and subjectivists expend huge amounts of money, manufacturers design attractive gear to get large profits [and everybody is happy 😀]
Specifications and performance don't matter, even 20% THD amplifiers working in open-loop with 0,5 damping factor and speakers placed randomly in an untreated reverberant room sound great to audiophiles and subjective people [the more expensive, fashioned and bulky the gear, the better the 'subjective experience']
As somebody says in its signature : "If it still does`nt sound any good, you have`nt spent enough money."
Your kidding Eva, manufcturers of high end power amps would love to use switch mode power supplies, the savings are massive, and audiophiles will welcome lighter, cheaper amps.
You yourself said your not an audiophile, does that mean? you do`nt hear to good? and that`s a statement not a question.
Cheers George
You yourself said your not an audiophile, does that mean? you do`nt hear to good? and that`s a statement not a question.
Cheers George
Yamaha P 2200
Thanks for the suggestion on the Yamaha. IYO, what kind of DIY improvements could be done to this amp? I also have a 2050, which I use for the tweeters.
Cheers
georgehifi said:
Thanks for the suggestion on the Yamaha. IYO, what kind of DIY improvements could be done to this amp? I also have a 2050, which I use for the tweeters.
Cheers
Quick improvement on the P2200, would be to up the bias so the heatsinls are warm to touch at idle. This will improve the sweetness of the amp. For zero dollar outlay.
The second improvement i made was to double the power supply caps in value, this had to be done with a separate outboard box as there is no room left inside for more caps, should say keep the conecting lead as short as possible and use very high amperage lead, this mods makes the bass rock solid. (this mod is going to cost you for the caps, and box)
As for the circuit i would love to direct couple the input, but never got around to doing it, that would give the amp more transparency and also kick the bass along some more.
As for the rest of the circuit, at a quick glance it looks ok.
Cheers George
The second improvement i made was to double the power supply caps in value, this had to be done with a separate outboard box as there is no room left inside for more caps, should say keep the conecting lead as short as possible and use very high amperage lead, this mods makes the bass rock solid. (this mod is going to cost you for the caps, and box)
As for the circuit i would love to direct couple the input, but never got around to doing it, that would give the amp more transparency and also kick the bass along some more.
As for the rest of the circuit, at a quick glance it looks ok.
Cheers George
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