-> AKSA schematic removed
Dear Hugh Dean, dear all,
I am very sorry and puzzled, I either did not want to start a war nor did I want to get in conflict with the business of http://www.printedelectronics.com .
I had no access to the web until now, I removed the gif immediatly.
The early version of the AKSA schematic (everybody could check that out by browsing through the AKSA pages) was in Rod Elliot's website for many weeks, nobody can say how many copies/downloads have been made in that time.
I always understood this forum as a forum for audio and DIY afficionados, that is why I posted the link. I also assumed that Mahendra Palesha is from India, where - as I know it from my own experience - many things from abroad are not so easy available.
I greatly admire the genius of the development of the AKSA. Although it did not hear it myself yet, I was in contact with people who made it and rated it high. I also think that at least some details should be published, because of their simplicity and cleverness.
My (naive) opinion is: If it is some kind of ART, it should be available for all people, it does not make sense to me to keep it secret, besides of a possible commercial point of view.
If a commercial interested party wants to copy your design, they easy will have the opportunity to buy the kit and rip of the idea!
Giving ideas free for the interested non-commercial oriented public did not kill Passlabs, more, it kept the information process running.
NaimAudio is always fighting against people who publish their schematics, but they are available, and no harm happened to NaimAudio yet because of that. They, even a bit like Passlabs, know, that their actual designs are still a bit different, parts are selected, there is special PCB, etc. And if somebody wants a real Naim, Aleph or AKSA, one has to buy the genuine stuff, if it is a kit or a readymade device.
I nevertheless appologize for having posted the link.
I was a bit naive, not to consider the rumble it causes.
I have to read all the posts now, and after that I can respond further if necessary (english is not my first language).
yours truely (ashamed)
Klaus
Dear Hugh Dean, dear all,
I am very sorry and puzzled, I either did not want to start a war nor did I want to get in conflict with the business of http://www.printedelectronics.com .
I had no access to the web until now, I removed the gif immediatly.
The early version of the AKSA schematic (everybody could check that out by browsing through the AKSA pages) was in Rod Elliot's website for many weeks, nobody can say how many copies/downloads have been made in that time.
I always understood this forum as a forum for audio and DIY afficionados, that is why I posted the link. I also assumed that Mahendra Palesha is from India, where - as I know it from my own experience - many things from abroad are not so easy available.
I greatly admire the genius of the development of the AKSA. Although it did not hear it myself yet, I was in contact with people who made it and rated it high. I also think that at least some details should be published, because of their simplicity and cleverness.
My (naive) opinion is: If it is some kind of ART, it should be available for all people, it does not make sense to me to keep it secret, besides of a possible commercial point of view.
If a commercial interested party wants to copy your design, they easy will have the opportunity to buy the kit and rip of the idea!
Giving ideas free for the interested non-commercial oriented public did not kill Passlabs, more, it kept the information process running.
NaimAudio is always fighting against people who publish their schematics, but they are available, and no harm happened to NaimAudio yet because of that. They, even a bit like Passlabs, know, that their actual designs are still a bit different, parts are selected, there is special PCB, etc. And if somebody wants a real Naim, Aleph or AKSA, one has to buy the genuine stuff, if it is a kit or a readymade device.
I nevertheless appologize for having posted the link.
I was a bit naive, not to consider the rumble it causes.
I have to read all the posts now, and after that I can respond further if necessary (english is not my first language).
yours truely (ashamed)
Klaus
One more thing.
I overlooked the small ESP logo in the schematic - this was clearly against the copyright. I apologize for that too.
But it was - as far as I could understand it now - an infringtion of the copyright already in orginal form.
What about the reduced version of the schematic, which is still on Rod's page now (at least in the last time) ?
Details which makes the AKSA different circuit-wise to other simple circuits, like the feedback network and the special layout of the output stage for example, are still clearly shown. Browsing through the AKSA's website (and others) I found many of the details missing in Rod's drawing. So I had an (maybe) early version of the complete schematic already, even before Rod put it on his site for some time. I did not start making one myself because of many reasons, mainly because other amplifier projects have to be finished first.
But the drawing of the schematic is or was on my harddisk. Shall I or anybody of you delete it now ?
Everybody, at least in this forum, who has only a litle experience with the construction of DIY amplifiers, knows, that having seen a schematic drawing does not give you a working prototype right away. There is long way to get to the point, where the delicate stuff is working up to the level. I even doubt that a kit like the orginal AKSA is a project for beginners, but I may be wrong.
I also understand very much that somebody wants to have a look at the schematic first (even for some money) before he will start buying and building; that is at least the usage with kit suppliers here in europe (mostly schematics are even downloadable or you will get a free photocopy).
I am glad though, that it did not send the schematic per mail (hidden), so that I realized what sensitivities are there.
I is at least a valuable thread until now, I also did not know that everybody concerned was watching so closely.
So:
Please keep up with your work and yout site, Rod, I am always waiting for something new ! I will contact you asap.
And, all the best for you, Hugh Dean, may your business flourish ! May this - hopefully - small web dispute bring you even more customers, I did not want to bring you any harm.
Please contact me if there is something I can do for you.
regards
Klaus
I overlooked the small ESP logo in the schematic - this was clearly against the copyright. I apologize for that too.
But it was - as far as I could understand it now - an infringtion of the copyright already in orginal form.
What about the reduced version of the schematic, which is still on Rod's page now (at least in the last time) ?
Details which makes the AKSA different circuit-wise to other simple circuits, like the feedback network and the special layout of the output stage for example, are still clearly shown. Browsing through the AKSA's website (and others) I found many of the details missing in Rod's drawing. So I had an (maybe) early version of the complete schematic already, even before Rod put it on his site for some time. I did not start making one myself because of many reasons, mainly because other amplifier projects have to be finished first.
But the drawing of the schematic is or was on my harddisk. Shall I or anybody of you delete it now ?
Everybody, at least in this forum, who has only a litle experience with the construction of DIY amplifiers, knows, that having seen a schematic drawing does not give you a working prototype right away. There is long way to get to the point, where the delicate stuff is working up to the level. I even doubt that a kit like the orginal AKSA is a project for beginners, but I may be wrong.
I also understand very much that somebody wants to have a look at the schematic first (even for some money) before he will start buying and building; that is at least the usage with kit suppliers here in europe (mostly schematics are even downloadable or you will get a free photocopy).
I am glad though, that it did not send the schematic per mail (hidden), so that I realized what sensitivities are there.
I is at least a valuable thread until now, I also did not know that everybody concerned was watching so closely.
So:
Please keep up with your work and yout site, Rod, I am always waiting for something new ! I will contact you asap.
And, all the best for you, Hugh Dean, may your business flourish ! May this - hopefully - small web dispute bring you even more customers, I did not want to bring you any harm.
Please contact me if there is something I can do for you.
regards
Klaus
Klaus, I think you have shown us by your works and actions that you are a man of honor. Something that is so often lacking these day.
I take my hat off,
Regards WALKER
I take my hat off,
Regards WALKER
I felt very bad the way matter has been discussed. The people who want to harm any company or design will not come to this type of forums. They will do it cold bloodedly. I once wrote to Rod Elliott who was extremely co-operative. Till today my experience with internet is of excellent pure & nice friendship. Here i find the AKSA people are going to extremes. They should think it silently. We are not people here to disturb them. We have not asked for any layout etc. We the DIY people want to always see various circuits & study them. After some homework we decide upon building a circuit of our own. This is for fun & enjoyment only. The commercial people should not be allowed to use this type forum. I think this forum is for people without any commercial interest. They want to fulfill their interest with the help of other like minded people. Sorry for the bandwidth. But the way matter has been exploited by commerial people, i felt i should speak now.
Mahendra Palesha
Mahendra Palesha
Palesha, I fear you have misunderstood us. No one appears to bare you any grudge, we all feel for your position. I wish that where was an easy solution for your problem but I don’t know what it is.
You’re not alone though, we all have to put up the bucks and try our luck. Even when we build amps ourselves, they often end up not producing the performance that we’d hoped for, but that’s the game.
I really do wish you luck and if you do have problems feel free to ask for help.
Regards WALKER
You’re not alone though, we all have to put up the bucks and try our luck. Even when we build amps ourselves, they often end up not producing the performance that we’d hoped for, but that’s the game.
I really do wish you luck and if you do have problems feel free to ask for help.
Regards WALKER
Mahendra, Lohk,
I would like to thank Lohk for taking down the early AKSA circuit. I agree with Walkder; he is indeed a man of honour. I appreciate it, others appreciate it, and I bear no grudge at all. These things happen. I am impressed by the calibre of those in this forum, and thank all of you, particularly Rod, Mahendra, and Klaus. I might add M. and L. both write very well in their second language, and I speak neither Hindustani or German, so I take my hat off to you both....!)
Mahendra, if you contact me privately we can talk a little more. Your quest for an AKSA may be closer than you think...
I believe I explained my position earlier. My attitude is not adversarial; I am attempting to restrict availability of this schematic to people who have bought my kit.
I am well aware of Nelson Pass's approach of free availability of his circuits, and will in due course consider it. It has merit, I agree. Until then, I will try to keep it between me and my kit constructors.
There are many synergies in this design with the pcb design, the components and the topology. I have heard AKSAs built with other components I did not choose, and some are good while others are terrible.
There still remain many issues in audio which cannot be explained in conventional terms. There is something of witchcraft in it! I think this is what attracts us all to this endless journey.......
My thanks to all involved; the matter is closed.
Sincerely,
Hugh
Director
Research/Technical
http://www.printedelectronics.com
Melbourne AUSTRALIA
I would like to thank Lohk for taking down the early AKSA circuit. I agree with Walkder; he is indeed a man of honour. I appreciate it, others appreciate it, and I bear no grudge at all. These things happen. I am impressed by the calibre of those in this forum, and thank all of you, particularly Rod, Mahendra, and Klaus. I might add M. and L. both write very well in their second language, and I speak neither Hindustani or German, so I take my hat off to you both....!)
Mahendra, if you contact me privately we can talk a little more. Your quest for an AKSA may be closer than you think...
I believe I explained my position earlier. My attitude is not adversarial; I am attempting to restrict availability of this schematic to people who have bought my kit.
I am well aware of Nelson Pass's approach of free availability of his circuits, and will in due course consider it. It has merit, I agree. Until then, I will try to keep it between me and my kit constructors.
There are many synergies in this design with the pcb design, the components and the topology. I have heard AKSAs built with other components I did not choose, and some are good while others are terrible.
There still remain many issues in audio which cannot be explained in conventional terms. There is something of witchcraft in it! I think this is what attracts us all to this endless journey.......
My thanks to all involved; the matter is closed.
Sincerely,
Hugh
Director
Research/Technical
http://www.printedelectronics.com
Melbourne AUSTRALIA
Thanks Klaus (and everyone)
The ruckus now appears to be over, and everyone can get back to building amps (and a normal discussion 🙂
The image is now removed, and although there are a few mutterings above, this is as it should be. I know some people think that all material should be made available, but a quick look at any truly "commercial" website will show that they have pictures of the outside of equipment, occasional pictures of the insides, but never any schematics or anything that gives away their intellectual property.
Hugh is perfectly right in keeping the finer details confidential, as the AKSA is his livelihood. When I accidentally published the full schematic, Hugh saw it and let me know, and it was put back where it belonged (my site is rather large, and it is not always easy to keep everything where it should be because of the sheer amount of "stuff" - about 50MB at last count!).
There seems to be some uncertainty about copyright. It is basically automatic, and just because something is published does not make it public domain. If this were not the case, once you obtained a CD of music or software, or a book (all of which are published), you would be able to copy it to your heart's content - this (of course) you can't do, since copyright still applies. Material on the Web has the same protection unless the author waives it with an explicit statement to that effect.
I sympathise with those who would like to see the full schematic of the AKSA (Mahendra in particular), but please don't confuse what I do with my schematics with Hugh's material. True, there are a lot of sites apart from mine that display full drawings, and there are a great many more that give you nothing more than a photo of the finished kit (if you are lucky!).
Anyway, thanks to all, and I must say (in addition to what has already been said) that this is an almost impossibly civilised Forum, and the co-operation and general tone is vastly different from that seen on some of the others (and thank goodness for that).
Cheers, Rod
The ruckus now appears to be over, and everyone can get back to building amps (and a normal discussion 🙂
The image is now removed, and although there are a few mutterings above, this is as it should be. I know some people think that all material should be made available, but a quick look at any truly "commercial" website will show that they have pictures of the outside of equipment, occasional pictures of the insides, but never any schematics or anything that gives away their intellectual property.
Hugh is perfectly right in keeping the finer details confidential, as the AKSA is his livelihood. When I accidentally published the full schematic, Hugh saw it and let me know, and it was put back where it belonged (my site is rather large, and it is not always easy to keep everything where it should be because of the sheer amount of "stuff" - about 50MB at last count!).
There seems to be some uncertainty about copyright. It is basically automatic, and just because something is published does not make it public domain. If this were not the case, once you obtained a CD of music or software, or a book (all of which are published), you would be able to copy it to your heart's content - this (of course) you can't do, since copyright still applies. Material on the Web has the same protection unless the author waives it with an explicit statement to that effect.
I sympathise with those who would like to see the full schematic of the AKSA (Mahendra in particular), but please don't confuse what I do with my schematics with Hugh's material. True, there are a lot of sites apart from mine that display full drawings, and there are a great many more that give you nothing more than a photo of the finished kit (if you are lucky!).
Anyway, thanks to all, and I must say (in addition to what has already been said) that this is an almost impossibly civilised Forum, and the co-operation and general tone is vastly different from that seen on some of the others (and thank goodness for that).
Cheers, Rod
Hugh,
I've been following this exchange with some interest. In the interests of intellectual freedom, I find myself forced to disclose information that you might consider proprietary.
The secret of the quality of of the AKSA amplifier is not the extended beta output transistors, nor the thousands of hours actually listening and tweaking the various components and comparing different topologies, but the special laquer that is used to treat the components and pcb supplied with the amplifier kit!!
Like Endemoser C37 (a secret laquer composition from Austria that has resonant characteristics exactly like that of human bone), Hugh's secret sauce, has the amazing capability of rendering the voice of Barry Gibb melifluous. It is composed of the sap of the rare Gidgee tree and the mucus secretions extracted from the nasal passages Koala Bears. My contacts in the Australian branch of PETA assure me that the horrid little creatures are so stoned that they actually derive purient pleasure from the extraction proceedure.
In the interests of preserving Hugh's human capital, I will not disclose the exact proportions....
[Edited by pmkap on 12-03-2001 at 08:40 PM]
I've been following this exchange with some interest. In the interests of intellectual freedom, I find myself forced to disclose information that you might consider proprietary.
The secret of the quality of of the AKSA amplifier is not the extended beta output transistors, nor the thousands of hours actually listening and tweaking the various components and comparing different topologies, but the special laquer that is used to treat the components and pcb supplied with the amplifier kit!!
Like Endemoser C37 (a secret laquer composition from Austria that has resonant characteristics exactly like that of human bone), Hugh's secret sauce, has the amazing capability of rendering the voice of Barry Gibb melifluous. It is composed of the sap of the rare Gidgee tree and the mucus secretions extracted from the nasal passages Koala Bears. My contacts in the Australian branch of PETA assure me that the horrid little creatures are so stoned that they actually derive purient pleasure from the extraction proceedure.
In the interests of preserving Hugh's human capital, I will not disclose the exact proportions....
[Edited by pmkap on 12-03-2001 at 08:40 PM]
AKSA 100W
Hi PKGUM,
Around $US600 will see a complete 100W AKSA with a quality case, transformers and input/output terminations.
About $US270 of that will be the kitset, heatsink and power supply options from my company.
Hugh
Hugh R. Dean
Research/Technical Director
http://www.printedelectronics.com
Melbourne AUSTRALIA
Hi PKGUM,
Around $US600 will see a complete 100W AKSA with a quality case, transformers and input/output terminations.
About $US270 of that will be the kitset, heatsink and power supply options from my company.
Hugh
Hugh R. Dean
Research/Technical Director
http://www.printedelectronics.com
Melbourne AUSTRALIA
Mr. Mahendra Palesha,
Everyone has to make a living. If you are a programmer, can I take a look at your source code to make sure "We have got the right to know that the code is perfectly suitable for us." before I purchase? AKSA make a living by selling his design, I am sure you are not working for free either. If "commercial people should not be allowed to use this type of forum" then the "Pass" forum will be greatly missed, a lot of good design will not be discovered and no more freebie for you to copy. I think people who don't respect IP/Copyright shall not be allowed to use this forum, don't you agree?
2 cents
PC
Everyone has to make a living. If you are a programmer, can I take a look at your source code to make sure "We have got the right to know that the code is perfectly suitable for us." before I purchase? AKSA make a living by selling his design, I am sure you are not working for free either. If "commercial people should not be allowed to use this type of forum" then the "Pass" forum will be greatly missed, a lot of good design will not be discovered and no more freebie for you to copy. I think people who don't respect IP/Copyright shall not be allowed to use this forum, don't you agree?
2 cents
PC
Dear PC,
I fully respect the copyright and intelectual value of the product. They have got all the right to make money in the rightful way. At the very same time i have to save myself from getting cheated. In my life I have many bad experiences. Hence it is better to check. I think u will also agree to this. I don't believe in buying blindly. What many kit sellers are doing with their clients is an open fact. I think u r lucky enough that u might not have got bad experience. This clears all ur views & my comments.
Mahendra palesha
I fully respect the copyright and intelectual value of the product. They have got all the right to make money in the rightful way. At the very same time i have to save myself from getting cheated. In my life I have many bad experiences. Hence it is better to check. I think u will also agree to this. I don't believe in buying blindly. What many kit sellers are doing with their clients is an open fact. I think u r lucky enough that u might not have got bad experience. This clears all ur views & my comments.
Mahendra palesha
Everything is cheap in our country especially electronics parts.If i order a kit of aksa with hugh, it would be ten times the cost.How could i make a better sound from aksa if i cannot do it myself. what is DIYaudio for? for advertising your product?
You guys are too much.
There are lots of freely available plans complete with board layouts even. They are here. Pick one and build it.
If you want AKSA's, buy the kit.
If Hugh decides not to share his design, that is his decision and you should respect that. He has as much right as anyone to be here.
There are lots of freely available plans complete with board layouts even. They are here. Pick one and build it.
If you want AKSA's, buy the kit.
If Hugh decides not to share his design, that is his decision and you should respect that. He has as much right as anyone to be here.
I wish ASKA, Quasi and all the austrialian amp makers many
congrats for their many contributions to DIY.
Instead of whining that they won't give up their secrets,closely
examine the pictures of the products to give yourself an
idea of technique and layout.
For example , ASKA's "lifeforce 100" picture is detailed enough
to see his grounding techniques, PS rail layout,choice of OP
stages,etc 😀 .
As far as copyright infringment goes, I can't imagine why someone
would want to "pirate" a design when there are so many
resources available here at DIYaudio and the web to create
your own.
congrats for their many contributions to DIY.
Instead of whining that they won't give up their secrets,closely
examine the pictures of the products to give yourself an
idea of technique and layout.
For example , ASKA's "lifeforce 100" picture is detailed enough
to see his grounding techniques, PS rail layout,choice of OP
stages,etc 😀 .
As far as copyright infringment goes, I can't imagine why someone
would want to "pirate" a design when there are so many
resources available here at DIYaudio and the web to create
your own.
Ricdelros said:Everything is cheap in our country especially electronics parts.If i order a kit of aksa with hugh, it would be ten times the cost.How could i make a better sound from aksa if i cannot do it myself. what is DIYaudio for? for advertising your product?
Hello
Knowing him, I know that Hugh Dean, designer of the Aksa, work very hard in research and developments to have those superb result with is Aksa products, so it is normal that he want to keep Aksa schematics secret.
And I could say that Hugh are not in the diyaudio only to advertise his product, he give a lot of precious advices, that you will not find in books, in this forum since years.
Nelson Pass, who was making public most of his amps schematics, need to be more prudent now since a guy use them to sell Pass Lab clones amps on Ebay.
Any amps makers, including kit makers for diyer, need to be very carefull because there is a lot of forums and web surfers who look for those schematics to made clones of them and sell them on Ebay or other web business.
Bye
Gaetan
I find members like AKSA very valuable to a site like this. He's done a lot of tweaks, listened a lot, done a lot of measuring and shared his thoughts of what different tweaks do the the sound and not just simulated or measured THD. All contributing members make this site the best there is. Some show a complete schematic and board layout, others share their knowledge in a more subtle way.
Please understand I am NOT dissing Hugh !
My point is that as he tirelessly points out, the secret to his product is not just the schematic, but PCB layout, etc. I merely wish to point out that this IS DIYAudio after all, and if you are participating in this forum and are paranoid of even sharing your schematic, then I do question WHY you are here.
I dig people like Nelson Pass and Bob Cordell, who are able to share their knowledge with us - although I have a high regard for John Curl, I do not care for his attitude towards others on some of these forums.
I admire Wavebourn ofr his Creek Audio designs, and widowmaker for his unique current-dumper.
Sadly, some of the other fora have become anything BUT diy - cf. the ClassD; which used to have a number of diy discussions, but is now useless.
Do you mean to tell me that designs that are now considered classics, such as D.T.Williamson, JLLH, Quad306/405, should have never been exposed to other peers ? I am 52, and was an avid subscriber to PE.PW. Wireless World, Elektor, ETI, etc. until eveything got digitized. I now pick up classic receivers and amplifiers from the 70's and 80's, discarded by peepul who have "upgraded" to HT and don't know what they are missing.
I play guitar in a 60's rock band, and have a MSEE - so I am not some dud in getting a grip on audio from the days of electron toobs to opamps.
Sincerely;
Bala Rao
My point is that as he tirelessly points out, the secret to his product is not just the schematic, but PCB layout, etc. I merely wish to point out that this IS DIYAudio after all, and if you are participating in this forum and are paranoid of even sharing your schematic, then I do question WHY you are here.
I dig people like Nelson Pass and Bob Cordell, who are able to share their knowledge with us - although I have a high regard for John Curl, I do not care for his attitude towards others on some of these forums.
I admire Wavebourn ofr his Creek Audio designs, and widowmaker for his unique current-dumper.
Sadly, some of the other fora have become anything BUT diy - cf. the ClassD; which used to have a number of diy discussions, but is now useless.
Do you mean to tell me that designs that are now considered classics, such as D.T.Williamson, JLLH, Quad306/405, should have never been exposed to other peers ? I am 52, and was an avid subscriber to PE.PW. Wireless World, Elektor, ETI, etc. until eveything got digitized. I now pick up classic receivers and amplifiers from the 70's and 80's, discarded by peepul who have "upgraded" to HT and don't know what they are missing.
I play guitar in a 60's rock band, and have a MSEE - so I am not some dud in getting a grip on audio from the days of electron toobs to opamps.
Sincerely;
Bala Rao
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