Hello! First off I want to say thank you for any help with this, Ive been lurking on forums for months trying to absorb information and learn.
Im currently trying to modify the suggested design "S18BN" on B&C's website here : http://bcspeakers.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/02/12/16/15/09/156/file
My goal is to fuse two of these together to form a dual front loaded cabinet. I hope to extend the depth of the design (The suggested value is 68.58) to allow for more usable output in the 30hz-50hz. Im concerned about how much deeper to extend the suggested design to achieve this without ruining the nice "flat-ish" response that the S18BN has. I think bassboss (bassmaxx) has a model called the ZV-28 that is similar, but I didn't want to copy that.
BASSBOSS Powered Loudspeaker Systems
-Thank you
Im currently trying to modify the suggested design "S18BN" on B&C's website here : http://bcspeakers.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/02/12/16/15/09/156/file
My goal is to fuse two of these together to form a dual front loaded cabinet. I hope to extend the depth of the design (The suggested value is 68.58) to allow for more usable output in the 30hz-50hz. Im concerned about how much deeper to extend the suggested design to achieve this without ruining the nice "flat-ish" response that the S18BN has. I think bassboss (bassmaxx) has a model called the ZV-28 that is similar, but I didn't want to copy that.
BASSBOSS Powered Loudspeaker Systems
-Thank you
Making the volume larger will make the Fb (tuning) higher if the ports are not extended.
You could reduce the frontal area and increase the cabinet depth and the response would be the same, as long as the internal volume is kept the same.
If you would prefer getting nearly the same output from one BCSW115 as two BR enclosures, check out this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/184992-tapped-horn-vs-bass-reflex-case-study.html
The Keystone sub is no harder to build than the BC BR you are looking at.
I had my heart set on a pair of othorns with the 21"sw in them. Ive been chatting with Ricci a bit privately about building a pair. Im just concerned that for my budget a pair of othorns might not equal a pair of dual 18" front loaded cabs in output. When I was budgeting and pricing the wood for the othorns and the $250 price jump from the 18sw115 to the 21" made the dual front loaded style seem attractive. Im completely open to suggestions. I know its a noob thing to ask, but for a small dance stack, would you build 2 othorns or two dual front loaded cabs like im proposing? Is there any way to modify that box to get better response in the lower range? Again I appreciate any input and advice! thank yall
4 18sw115 in a vented enclosures tuned around fs (32hz) will likely outgun an pair of othorns by 1 to 2 db (with more power) if we dont take power compression into account. The othorn will go a bit lower.
this is 2035 dollars in drivers for the bass reflex cabs vs 1498 for the othorn pair. both designs will want around 90v capable amps, although if the 18sw115 pair is going to actually outgun the othorn pair you are going to need about 110 volts for xmax.
this is 2035 dollars in drivers for the bass reflex cabs vs 1498 for the othorn pair. both designs will want around 90v capable amps, although if the 18sw115 pair is going to actually outgun the othorn pair you are going to need about 110 volts for xmax.
1) I'd go TH over BR unless you want to go really small, which neither of those cabs are. Hoffman's Iron Law: Low, Loud, Small- pick two, applies to BR or TH.
The Keystone is as loud as the Othorn, but smaller and does not go as low. You need to determine whether there is enough content in the music you play to require the size, cost and power penalties paid for LF extension that may only be needed for a fraction of your music library.
2)A BR (or TH) can be tuned lower, but won't be as loud down low (see#1). The BC18SW115 is actually overbuilt for BR, but ideal for horn load, I'd use lighter coned less expensive units for BR, they are more sensitive (more output per watt).
Art
Hi Alethia123,
It looks like those ports (total area of 266,3 cm^2) will run into severe compression with the 18SW115.
4 keystone with the 18sw115 should give you almost 6db increase in output at 40hz (with a sacrifice below 35hz), and more output gain higher up in the passband. similar results from the xoc th18 clone (a bit less gain likely, but a bit more in the 30 to 40 range, just a bit).
these gains are realized at almost double the enclosure size per driver... and in a slight sacrifice in output below 35z, but they are gains none the less. If packspace is available, and money is tight, the THs make the best use of the money.
these gains are realized at almost double the enclosure size per driver... and in a slight sacrifice in output below 35z, but they are gains none the less. If packspace is available, and money is tight, the THs make the best use of the money.
"4 18sw115 in a vented enclosures tuned around fs (32hz) will likely outgun an pair of othorns by 1 to 2 db (with more power) if we dont take power compression into account. The othorn will go a bit lower.
this is 2035 dollars in drivers for the bass reflex cabs vs 1498 for the othorn pair. both designs will want around 90v capable amps, although if the 18sw115 pair is going to actually outgun the othorn pair you are going to need about 110 volts for xmax."
Exactly Sine, this is kinda where Im stuck, the four drivers for the pair of the front loaded cabs will cost more but the enclosures are simpler to build (and cheaper right?). I figure given the $1500 price tag estimated on DataBass.com per othorn, that means the difference in cost of wood plays a big role. Ideally If I could somehow, someway, pump 4 othorns out for a "similar" cost to building the pair of dual front loaded bins, I would be in heaven. Also is there a single amp that could power 4 othorns well enough? my budget for the low end of my rig is $5500-$6000 including the amp 
. The carpentry is no biggie, im thinking most bass per $ is all.
"1) I'd go TH over BR unless you want to go really small, which neither of those cabs are. Hoffman's Iron Law: Low, Loud, Small- pick two, applies to BR or TH.
The Keystone is as loud as the Othorn, but smaller and does not go as low. You need to determine whether there is enough content in the music you play to require the size, cost and power penalties paid for LF extension that may only be needed for a fraction of your music library.
2)A BR (or TH) can be tuned lower, but won't be as loud down low (see#1). The BC18SW115 is actually overbuilt for BR, but ideal for horn load, I'd use lighter coned less expensive units for BR, they are more sensitive (more output per watt). "
Art
Im with you Art. I fell in love with the othorn/gjallerhorn/Th builds for months drooling over my keyboard, but I receeded to a simpler front loaded enclosure out of fear that a pair of othorns might not be enough. Most of the music played on this will be electronic music. Not neccessarily like trap/dubstep low low low all the time, sometimes house and other punchier genres, but it will DEF need to hit those ranges well and often. I doubt live bands will be playing on this alot. This is mainly for small -medium dance parties with mulitple djs. Im doing a pair of 2 x B&C 12NW76 , 1 x B&C DE820TN enclosures for the mids. Will just two othorns suffice? Ricci said I may need four. I wonder If I can find a steal on the proper baltic birch and crank four out?
I know its lame to come with some many question, but Im like split heavily between the two paths. I know that horns are sexier, more effiecient, and represent a more intellectual design philosophy, but I do hear alot of front loaded cabs here in austin that rock pretty damn hard. hmmmmmmm
this is 2035 dollars in drivers for the bass reflex cabs vs 1498 for the othorn pair. both designs will want around 90v capable amps, although if the 18sw115 pair is going to actually outgun the othorn pair you are going to need about 110 volts for xmax."
Exactly Sine, this is kinda where Im stuck, the four drivers for the pair of the front loaded cabs will cost more but the enclosures are simpler to build (and cheaper right?). I figure given the $1500 price tag estimated on DataBass.com per othorn, that means the difference in cost of wood plays a big role. Ideally If I could somehow, someway, pump 4 othorns out for a "similar" cost to building the pair of dual front loaded bins, I would be in heaven
. Also is there a single amp that could power 4 othorns well enough? my budget for the low end of my rig is $5500-$6000 including the amp . The carpentry is no biggie, im thinking most bass per $ is all."1) I'd go TH over BR unless you want to go really small, which neither of those cabs are. Hoffman's Iron Law: Low, Loud, Small- pick two, applies to BR or TH.
The Keystone is as loud as the Othorn, but smaller and does not go as low. You need to determine whether there is enough content in the music you play to require the size, cost and power penalties paid for LF extension that may only be needed for a fraction of your music library.
2)A BR (or TH) can be tuned lower, but won't be as loud down low (see#1). The BC18SW115 is actually overbuilt for BR, but ideal for horn load, I'd use lighter coned less expensive units for BR, they are more sensitive (more output per watt). "
Art
Im with you Art. I fell in love with the othorn/gjallerhorn/Th builds for months drooling over my keyboard, but I receeded to a simpler front loaded enclosure out of fear that a pair of othorns might not be enough. Most of the music played on this will be electronic music. Not neccessarily like trap/dubstep low low low all the time, sometimes house and other punchier genres, but it will DEF need to hit those ranges well and often. I doubt live bands will be playing on this alot. This is mainly for small -medium dance parties with mulitple djs. Im doing a pair of 2 x B&C 12NW76 , 1 x B&C DE820TN enclosures for the mids. Will just two othorns suffice? Ricci said I may need four. I wonder If I can find a steal on the proper baltic birch and crank four out?
I know its lame to come with some many question, but Im like split heavily between the two paths. I know that horns are sexier, more effiecient, and represent a more intellectual design philosophy, but I do hear alot of front loaded cabs here in austin that rock pretty damn hard. hmmmmmmm
if youa are going to build a bass reflex box... just build it with a big 700 cm sq center slot port, in roughly 11 cubic feet net internal vol including port tuned between 30 and 35hz. basically a direct knock off of the PK sound cx800 (which in itself has no innovation so dont feel bad),
If you are good at sourcing wood, then the othorn should only cost about 50 dollars more than the Bassreflex box (1 more sheet of 3/4, and 50 dollars isnt even as low as you can get birch for). The keystone is an EASY build, and would likely use about the same amount of wood as the bass reflex. The th18 a bit harder and a bit more wood than keystone.
If you are good at sourcing wood, then the othorn should only cost about 50 dollars more than the Bassreflex box (1 more sheet of 3/4, and 50 dollars isnt even as low as you can get birch for). The keystone is an EASY build, and would likely use about the same amount of wood as the bass reflex. The th18 a bit harder and a bit more wood than keystone.
Hey TB46 Well hmm, I remember another member building 2 x othorns (luke I think) and being -3db at 18hz or somthing crazy like that. Im not sure if I need to be THAT low. I guess the major fear with the othorns is that I will be left with an ugly gap between 100hz-200hz, between the top freq range of the othorns capablility, and the (realistic) bottom freq range of the 12NW76's (the mid im using, not horn loaded) capability. Pardon my Noob terminology, im learning.
Is this a baseless fear? Will the front loaded cabs do no better from 70hz-150hz?
These will be used in small venues, medium sized bars, and small outdoor parties. Front stage. Ive got my eye on the QSC PL line for amplification, seems to be a nice middle ground.
I remember reading alot about how horns need to be stacked in large quantaties to be truly effective. Ive got a buddy who runs like 6-12 labhorns at burningman, and he was telling me that they really thrive in multiples.
Well hmm, I remember another member building 2 x othorns (luke I think) and being -3db at 18hz or somthing crazy like that. Im not sure if I need to be THAT low. I guess the major fear with the othorns is that I will be left with an ugly gap between 100hz-200hz, between the top freq range of the othorns capablility, and the (realistic) bottom freq range of the 12NW76's (the mid im using, not horn loaded) capability. Pardon my Noob terminology, im learning. Is this a baseless fear? Will the front loaded cabs do no better from 70hz-150hz?
These will be used in small venues, medium sized bars, and small outdoor parties. Front stage. Ive got my eye on the QSC PL line for amplification, seems to be a nice middle ground.
I remember reading alot about how horns need to be stacked in large quantaties to be truly effective. Ive got a buddy who runs like 6-12 labhorns at burningman, and he was telling me that they really thrive in multiples.
Tapped horn does =/= Front loaded horn. they work well even in singles
If you are talking about Luke over on Avs forum, he was -3 at 18hz with 2 othorn AND 2 Gjallerhorn. The othorn is -3 at 30ishhz.
if you can deal with 4 12 cubic feet boxes, the keystone and the xoc Th18 are the *highest output* options for 4 18sw115 drivers. you will need almost 8 18sw115 and twice the power to match them if you were to put them in BR boxes.
If you are talking about Luke over on Avs forum, he was -3 at 18hz with 2 othorn AND 2 Gjallerhorn. The othorn is -3 at 30ishhz.
if you can deal with 4 12 cubic feet boxes, the keystone and the xoc Th18 are the *highest output* options for 4 18sw115 drivers. you will need almost 8 18sw115 and twice the power to match them if you were to put them in BR boxes.
"If you are talking about Luke over on Avs forum, he was -3 at 18hz with 2 othorn AND 2 Gjallerhorn. The othorn is -3 at 30ishhz."
- ohhhh, that makes more sense! I see.
"if you can deal with 4 12 cubic feet boxes, the keystone and the xoc Th18 are the *highest output* options for 4 18sw115 drivers. you will need almost 8 18sw115 and twice the power to match them if you were to put them in BR boxes. "
Well put. My options seem much more clear now. Thank you all very much.
I guess my next posts will be of some build pics hopefully!
Btw- I really love the support here, I would be swimming in the dark. Often times when asking for advice in person locally, I have to wade through a lot of big egos and brand biases to get some actual useful advice. I really appreciate the focus on theory and design here. cheers
- ohhhh, that makes more sense! I see.
"if you can deal with 4 12 cubic feet boxes, the keystone and the xoc Th18 are the *highest output* options for 4 18sw115 drivers. you will need almost 8 18sw115 and twice the power to match them if you were to put them in BR boxes. "
Well put. My options seem much more clear now. Thank you all very much.
I guess my next posts will be of some build pics hopefully!
Btw- I really love the support here, I would be swimming in the dark. Often times when asking for advice in person locally, I have to wade through a lot of big egos and brand biases to get some actual useful advice. I really appreciate the focus on theory and design here. cheers
Alethia,
One good 3" diaphragm HF driver on a 90x40 degree horn crossed around 1200 Hz can keep up to around two 12" and still sound clean.
To match the dynamic headroom of one 2x18" BR, Keystone, or an Othorn requires two front loaded 12", or one large horn loaded 12.
When you deviate from matching dynamic headroom throughout a system's frequency range, you enter a "cartoon world", where anything from a few dB to 20 dB or more difference may be acceptable.
Take a look at this system for sale, using one Keystone, fourteen 8", and five DH1AMT high frequency drivers per side.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-meet/252064-complete-line-array-system-sale.html
With the type of events and music I work with (and the dry hot desert conditions which eat up high frequency) , the above configuration works out well to reproduce the dynamic and frequency range. If the music you work with routinely has < 100 Hz content averaging well above 100 Hz >peaks, more LF is required. LF can be easily added as needed, but adding top cabinets that are not designed from the ground up for arrays ends up sounding bad, a comb filtered mess that sounds different in every location.
The prices quoted in the ad are probably lower than what you would probably pay for materials, design work in the system represents the best of what I have learned in over 35 years in the production industry.
Art
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Art, I recall you saying in another thread that the othorn will play both lower and louder then the keystone, have you new info on this? Just wanna get the facts and numbers straight.
Also a Q, we discussed powering and for two keystone sw100 8 ohm models on each side of an amp you recommend an amp that can deliver around 6000 watt in 2,5-4 ohm per side, I'd guess this is peak wattage?
With four keystone running, would I be better of with two amps running on different outlets(different fuse) or would one be able to handle them all?
1) No new info, the old info was a month or so ago in the Othorn thread.
2) I made no recommendations for a SW100, I recommend the BC18TBW100 or 18SW115 for TH use with power as they are specified on the manufacturer's sheets. 6000 watts would be maximum peak. For DJ use, 3000 peak, 750-1000 average limit.
3) That would depend on the type of program material, the fuse ratings, and the amp efficiency and type.
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