Hi,
I am trying to make our female vocalist sound clearer using our mackie CFX12 mixer.
I have found many web sites suggesting which frequencies to cut/boost but not sure how to do this using the Mackie.
For instance one site suggests.
Cutting 300hz to 350hz as first step
Cutting 600hz as second step
Cutting 150hz to 200hz as third step
Applying low cut (Which on the mackie cuts everything below 100hz)
Boosting 6k
I understand how to cut and boost but the mackie only has 4 pots on the strip the first one cuts and boosts 12k
the bottom one cuts or boosts 80hz and the middle one cuts or boosts between 100hz and 8k so most of the above suggestion are in the range of this pot but I can only pick one frequency to cut or boost ?
Am I missing something ?
The mackie also has a slider EQ but modifying this changes the whole of the desk and not just the female vocals (we have drums, bass guitar and Lead guitar running through the desk)
Any help would be most appreciated.
Cheers in advance
I am trying to make our female vocalist sound clearer using our mackie CFX12 mixer.
I have found many web sites suggesting which frequencies to cut/boost but not sure how to do this using the Mackie.
For instance one site suggests.
Cutting 300hz to 350hz as first step
Cutting 600hz as second step
Cutting 150hz to 200hz as third step
Applying low cut (Which on the mackie cuts everything below 100hz)
Boosting 6k
I understand how to cut and boost but the mackie only has 4 pots on the strip the first one cuts and boosts 12k
the bottom one cuts or boosts 80hz and the middle one cuts or boosts between 100hz and 8k so most of the above suggestion are in the range of this pot but I can only pick one frequency to cut or boost ?
Am I missing something ?
The mackie also has a slider EQ but modifying this changes the whole of the desk and not just the female vocals (we have drums, bass guitar and Lead guitar running through the desk)
Any help would be most appreciated.
Cheers in advance
You're missing something.
The "mid" EQ is frequency-selectable, and the cut/boost will be applied in the area around the frequency you've set.
Which mic are you using? Can you post a recording?
My suggestion would be to engage the 100Hz highpass filter, and then play with the "mid" EQ. Chances are you'll need to cut somewhere in the 150-300Hz range. Put a 6dB dip in there and sweep it around a bit to see what's what.
Chris
The "mid" EQ is frequency-selectable, and the cut/boost will be applied in the area around the frequency you've set.
Which mic are you using? Can you post a recording?
My suggestion would be to engage the 100Hz highpass filter, and then play with the "mid" EQ. Chances are you'll need to cut somewhere in the 150-300Hz range. Put a 6dB dip in there and sweep it around a bit to see what's what.
Chris
What mic is she using and most importantly.. what are the speakers?
With live mixing the goal is to make space for each source so each one can be heard, but accomplishing that can involve things that may not seem intuitive. In your case the lead guitar and the vocalist could be competing for the same range of frequencies so you may need to cut some mids on the guitar and boost the same range for the vocalist to make her stand out.
A different mic may help with this but in general as long as it's something decent (sm58 or equivalent) you should be able to make it work.
The speakers are important because they need to be able to project the vocal range clearly, but many entry level boxes are actually quite bad at this.
It would be recommended to use a 3-way speaker to have a speaker capable of correctly reproducing the entire spectrum of the female voice. Or at least use the dedicated speaker with the maximum 8-inch woofer.
I forgot to respond to this last time. You're not missing a lot.. that mixer has rather limited EQ so there is only so much that can be accomplished. The low and high EQs are considered shelving filters, that means they boost/cut all frequencies abouve 12k or below 80hz. The Mid EQ is a semi parametric filter, the level of boost/cut and the center frequency can be changed but not the Q or width of the filter.. which would be helpful. I suspect they have set it to be a relatively wide filter for maximum effect, but this still makes it difficult to do the kind of response shaping that is available in a DAW or with a digital live sound mixer.
You'll read a whole load of BS about EQ all over the net, EQ was invented to make up for deficiencies in early equipment, that's largely gone now with even very cheap equipment being pretty good these days.
I trained as a recording engineer and have done live sound on and off now for almost 40 years.
There are no magic EQ setting that work everywhere, EQ these days is to make up for mainly room & environment deficiencies and so will be different in all venues.
You haven't said what type of music you play or the instruments in your band ... e.g. EQ for a string quartet will be completely different to EQ for a Slipknot gig.
My broadrange advice to you is forget about thinking just about the one individual and channel, good sound comes from the overall big picture of the frequency balance of all instruments in your band and there are some basic steps you can take to get a better basic balance. Remember as well that live sound is completely different to a recording mix.
I also fix equipment and have serviced a few of these small mackie's so here's some steps for you that will help in most situations:
1) Forget about the graphic EQ in the master section, leave it flat (all faders in the middle at 0), also always mix in mono when live (keep PAN in the centre for all channels) so all instuments levels are the same in both/multiple speakers, there is no place for stereo mixing in simple live sound applications.
2) Switch IN the 100Hz LOW CUT on EVERY channel except bass guitar and kick drum.
3) Start with ALL the EQ knobs on ALL channels set in the centre, get a good balance of volumes then ... have a listen ... if it sounds good you do not need to do anymore!
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If it "NEEDS" more:
4) Most bands have guitars ... on those channels, turn the LOW knob to -15 then set your mid FREQ knob @ 1.5k and cut 6dB with the MID knob above it (2 notches), this will take the edge off the guitars (that's what you want so the vocals are clearer).
5) Don't use FX on any instruments only vocals and "small plate" settings will add definition and won't muddy the overall sound.
So now you have cut the bottom end for clarity of bass guitar and kick drum & cut mid range to make space for the "presence" of the vocals which you augmented by the use of a bright plate reverb.
6) Have a listen ... if it sounds good you do not need to do anymore!
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7) If the vocals are not clear ... try turning them up a bit (that is the easiest way to get clarity).
8) Only now think about whether you "NEED" to EQ the vocal ... if you have to EQ at this stage then on the vocal channel turn the LOW down to -15 then set the mid FREQ knob @ 1.5k and boost the MID knob above it by 6dB (2 notches) and then boost the HI by 3dB (1 notch).
Have a listen ... if the vocals are not clear then there is something fundamentaly wrong or unsuitable with the PA gear you are using. I'm taking it for granted you know how to set the desk gain structure etc. ... if not that can have a big part in making it difficult to get a good balance.
The main point I'd like you to take on board though is EQ should only be used if required, you wouldn't believe the amount of times I've walked into local venues and been asked to "FIX" the sound of bands here ... and all I've done is flattened the EQ on all channels, pressed LOW CUT on all channels except bass and drums (or other low freq. instruments) then just balanced the volumes and done very little else and the difference is night and day!
One last and very important point that can affect and ruin both live and recorded mixes is that the human brain tries to constantly average out frequency balance and notices peaks more than troughs ... e.g. you can savagely cut frequencies and nobody will notice anything gone but the slightest little boost at some frequencies and it stands out a mile. I've seen many inexperienced mixers add mid range .... then 20 mins later add more ... then 20mins later add more etc. because the boost that they heard when they first added it is constantly being averaged out over time. LOL then new people walk into the venue and it's like the mid range is peeling the skin off their faces.
So just be aware that when you boost it will not sound as obvious after a while but you don't need to add more.
Obviously there can be a LOT more to this but those are a few points that should help you to find the right direction ... 🙂
I trained as a recording engineer and have done live sound on and off now for almost 40 years.
There are no magic EQ setting that work everywhere, EQ these days is to make up for mainly room & environment deficiencies and so will be different in all venues.
You haven't said what type of music you play or the instruments in your band ... e.g. EQ for a string quartet will be completely different to EQ for a Slipknot gig.
My broadrange advice to you is forget about thinking just about the one individual and channel, good sound comes from the overall big picture of the frequency balance of all instruments in your band and there are some basic steps you can take to get a better basic balance. Remember as well that live sound is completely different to a recording mix.
I also fix equipment and have serviced a few of these small mackie's so here's some steps for you that will help in most situations:
1) Forget about the graphic EQ in the master section, leave it flat (all faders in the middle at 0), also always mix in mono when live (keep PAN in the centre for all channels) so all instuments levels are the same in both/multiple speakers, there is no place for stereo mixing in simple live sound applications.
2) Switch IN the 100Hz LOW CUT on EVERY channel except bass guitar and kick drum.
3) Start with ALL the EQ knobs on ALL channels set in the centre, get a good balance of volumes then ... have a listen ... if it sounds good you do not need to do anymore!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it "NEEDS" more:
4) Most bands have guitars ... on those channels, turn the LOW knob to -15 then set your mid FREQ knob @ 1.5k and cut 6dB with the MID knob above it (2 notches), this will take the edge off the guitars (that's what you want so the vocals are clearer).
5) Don't use FX on any instruments only vocals and "small plate" settings will add definition and won't muddy the overall sound.
So now you have cut the bottom end for clarity of bass guitar and kick drum & cut mid range to make space for the "presence" of the vocals which you augmented by the use of a bright plate reverb.
6) Have a listen ... if it sounds good you do not need to do anymore!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7) If the vocals are not clear ... try turning them up a bit (that is the easiest way to get clarity).
8) Only now think about whether you "NEED" to EQ the vocal ... if you have to EQ at this stage then on the vocal channel turn the LOW down to -15 then set the mid FREQ knob @ 1.5k and boost the MID knob above it by 6dB (2 notches) and then boost the HI by 3dB (1 notch).
Have a listen ... if the vocals are not clear then there is something fundamentaly wrong or unsuitable with the PA gear you are using. I'm taking it for granted you know how to set the desk gain structure etc. ... if not that can have a big part in making it difficult to get a good balance.
The main point I'd like you to take on board though is EQ should only be used if required, you wouldn't believe the amount of times I've walked into local venues and been asked to "FIX" the sound of bands here ... and all I've done is flattened the EQ on all channels, pressed LOW CUT on all channels except bass and drums (or other low freq. instruments) then just balanced the volumes and done very little else and the difference is night and day!
One last and very important point that can affect and ruin both live and recorded mixes is that the human brain tries to constantly average out frequency balance and notices peaks more than troughs ... e.g. you can savagely cut frequencies and nobody will notice anything gone but the slightest little boost at some frequencies and it stands out a mile. I've seen many inexperienced mixers add mid range .... then 20 mins later add more ... then 20mins later add more etc. because the boost that they heard when they first added it is constantly being averaged out over time. LOL then new people walk into the venue and it's like the mid range is peeling the skin off their faces.
So just be aware that when you boost it will not sound as obvious after a while but you don't need to add more.
Obviously there can be a LOT more to this but those are a few points that should help you to find the right direction ... 🙂
Woops missed that you did actually say the setup of the band ... oh well what I said above should help ... 🙂
I mostly agree with check12's post, except:
I'd firmly suggest that individual channels will often need EQ for one reason or another. For vocal mics used up-close, proximity effect from directional microphones will give a very bass-heavy, muddy sound:
One solution is to ask the singer to back off the mic a bit. That's a problem on loud stages, though - inverse-square law means less vocal SPL hitting the mic. Effectively, SNR suffers.
Another solution is to reach for the EQ and bring down the lower-mids and bass a bit, so the vocals are nice and clear again.
I tend to use a low-Q cut aimed at wherever the mic's proximity effect peak is. In the example above, about 120Hz. When the mixing desk is more limited (ie, I don't have a few bands of fully parametric EQ), I'd use whatever HPF is available, and then aim the "mid" control somewhere in the 150-250Hz range and cut there.
Chris
I'd firmly suggest that individual channels will often need EQ for one reason or another. For vocal mics used up-close, proximity effect from directional microphones will give a very bass-heavy, muddy sound:
One solution is to ask the singer to back off the mic a bit. That's a problem on loud stages, though - inverse-square law means less vocal SPL hitting the mic. Effectively, SNR suffers.
Another solution is to reach for the EQ and bring down the lower-mids and bass a bit, so the vocals are nice and clear again.
I tend to use a low-Q cut aimed at wherever the mic's proximity effect peak is. In the example above, about 120Hz. When the mixing desk is more limited (ie, I don't have a few bands of fully parametric EQ), I'd use whatever HPF is available, and then aim the "mid" control somewhere in the 150-250Hz range and cut there.
Chris
Proximity is one thing, another is mismatched mics all over the stage. To me I'd prefer all the vocals be sung into the same type mic. I know a lot of performers have one mic they prefer, but really I find it easier to get a good EQ when all the vocals have the same starting source.
Chris ... I kept it very simple .
I am also a former pro performer & actually like & use the proximity effect from dynamic microphones while performing as do just about every other pro singer I know no matter what style of music they perform.
Maybe in a recorded mixdown I might address proximity but I don't really come into contact with any singers who don't know how to use proper mic technique.
Also saying "bring down the lower-mids and bass a bit, so the vocals are nice and clear again" ... will mean nothing to the OP.
When you say "except" above I don't know what bit you are disagreeing with? ... the reason you want to EQ whatever it is that you don't like is because of the way it sounds in the room or environment (e.g.headphones) that you are in and that is what I said above.
You should not be routinely looking up mic frequency responses and trying to remove all proximity effect ... there are far more effective ways to remove muddd in mixes.
Only EQ if it's needed, ... if you can get a really good gain structure set up with the whole system & I mean right back to the individual instruments you'll find you need a lot less EQ. it's gain structure where I find most newbies are making mistakes.
I am also a former pro performer & actually like & use the proximity effect from dynamic microphones while performing as do just about every other pro singer I know no matter what style of music they perform.
Maybe in a recorded mixdown I might address proximity but I don't really come into contact with any singers who don't know how to use proper mic technique.
Also saying "bring down the lower-mids and bass a bit, so the vocals are nice and clear again" ... will mean nothing to the OP.
When you say "except" above I don't know what bit you are disagreeing with? ... the reason you want to EQ whatever it is that you don't like is because of the way it sounds in the room or environment (e.g.headphones) that you are in and that is what I said above.
You should not be routinely looking up mic frequency responses and trying to remove all proximity effect ... there are far more effective ways to remove muddd in mixes.
Only EQ if it's needed, ... if you can get a really good gain structure set up with the whole system & I mean right back to the individual instruments you'll find you need a lot less EQ. it's gain structure where I find most newbies are making mistakes.
Check12,
Gain structure makes it easier to operate the desk, but whether the preamp is at +20dB and the fader at +10dB, or the preamp is at +30dB and fader at 0dB, they'll still sound muddy if you've got a singer that only ever stays right on top of the mic.
Good mic technique would imply using the proximity effect to reinforce the lower notes of the voice when needed. When you've got a good singer on a quiet enough stage, that works really well and sounds great. I really enjoy those gigs, and had one just a few days ago. I put up a couple of Sennheiser e965s with a 70Hz highpass on each and no other processing was needed. Lovely.
Other gigs, though, have loud stages and/or weak singers. Those singers have to stay on top of the mic in order to be heard, and then they have that muddy vocal sound.
I was disagreeing with your assessment that most equipment is good enough to use without EQ: Only on a reasonably quiet stage with a good singer (that knows how/when to use proximity effect), you can get away with adding a highpass filter and nothing else. The rest of the time, the singer will have to stay on/close-to the mic, and I'll EQ out some of the proximity effect to maintain clarity.
It does require an amount of listening and watching the singer, to figure out what their technique is.
Active PA speakers, by contrast, are pretty good these days, and usually don't need much/any work to get them sounding good.
FWIW, I rarely look up the frequency responses of mics, since I have the facilities to measure them myself if I ever get curious.
Chris
PS - Good choice of username 🙂
Gain structure makes it easier to operate the desk, but whether the preamp is at +20dB and the fader at +10dB, or the preamp is at +30dB and fader at 0dB, they'll still sound muddy if you've got a singer that only ever stays right on top of the mic.
Good mic technique would imply using the proximity effect to reinforce the lower notes of the voice when needed. When you've got a good singer on a quiet enough stage, that works really well and sounds great. I really enjoy those gigs, and had one just a few days ago. I put up a couple of Sennheiser e965s with a 70Hz highpass on each and no other processing was needed. Lovely.
Other gigs, though, have loud stages and/or weak singers. Those singers have to stay on top of the mic in order to be heard, and then they have that muddy vocal sound.
I was disagreeing with your assessment that most equipment is good enough to use without EQ: Only on a reasonably quiet stage with a good singer (that knows how/when to use proximity effect), you can get away with adding a highpass filter and nothing else. The rest of the time, the singer will have to stay on/close-to the mic, and I'll EQ out some of the proximity effect to maintain clarity.
It does require an amount of listening and watching the singer, to figure out what their technique is.
Active PA speakers, by contrast, are pretty good these days, and usually don't need much/any work to get them sounding good.
FWIW, I rarely look up the frequency responses of mics, since I have the facilities to measure them myself if I ever get curious.
Chris
PS - Good choice of username 🙂
Another simple thing you can do before resorting to trying to fix everything at the desk and does incorporate looking up mic info is to know your microphones pickup pattern and use that to best effect when placing mics on stage for best sound isolation, also instrument placement on stage should be considered and used to best effect.
e.g. if you've got a singer that likes to leap about & leave their mic on a mic stand and you've placed that stand directly in front of a drum kit on a riser don't be surprised to have drums overriding everything else every time he moves his head, or moves away from the mic.
Live sound can be super complicated but that's no good for the OP ... IMO the most useful advice is simple fundamental tips, over the years I've noticed that young bands usually have no idea how to set up a stage properly or set proper full system gain structure & these elements are where a good live mix starts.
e.g. if you've got a singer that likes to leap about & leave their mic on a mic stand and you've placed that stand directly in front of a drum kit on a riser don't be surprised to have drums overriding everything else every time he moves his head, or moves away from the mic.
Live sound can be super complicated but that's no good for the OP ... IMO the most useful advice is simple fundamental tips, over the years I've noticed that young bands usually have no idea how to set up a stage properly or set proper full system gain structure & these elements are where a good live mix starts.
And young bands often have the notion that a "smiley face" curve on a graphic EQ is somehow to be preferred.
I didn't say that above? and I have not said anywhere not to use EQ????
... the idea I'm trying to promote here is the proper/better use of EQ and IME a lot of young people overlook fundamental setup elements and end up overusing EQ when you can get a much better sound or make it much easier to get a better sound by other simple techniques.
You've made a completely wrong assumption about what I'm trying to say ... I can get very extreme with EQ ... but only if it's required.
Mind you talking of stage setups it's not just young people, club owners can do the stupidest things too ... I'm just back from a large venue after taking back a HK Projector top cab that I repaired and they've got a Behr X32 & loads of other outboard gear setup in a tall rack on the side of the stage facing directly at a huge smoke machine so every time it's used (and that's all the time) gallons of smoke fluid is getting sucked straight into the big fan at the back of the X32 LOL ... I predict seeing that for repair soon..
It's really crap smoke fluid they use too as they were complaining about what it's doing to the walls and floor. They've got about 20 large plasma screens around the venue, I got one to fix few months back ... it was a total write-off, I've never seen so much corrosion.
I have tried to tell them but I might as well talk to the wall. Get plenty of work off them though they are always blowing stuff up ...
It's really crap smoke fluid they use too as they were complaining about what it's doing to the walls and floor. They've got about 20 large plasma screens around the venue, I got one to fix few months back ... it was a total write-off, I've never seen so much corrosion.
I have tried to tell them but I might as well talk to the wall. Get plenty of work off them though they are always blowing stuff up ...