There’s tool lending libraries all across the country. If the OP can find a kit with a flatpack, clamps are all that’s needed from the aforementioned libraries. I agree with classicalfan that a tried and true speaker kit with good reviews and online support is a smart way forward.
No, you are wrong again. And I will try to explain it again, since you do not appear to understand my previous explanation.
In the US, at least, if you copy a patented item it is an infringement and the owner of the patent can sue you. It is not a crime, but a civil matter. And it doesn’t matter whether you use the copied item yourself or sell it to someone else. Just building a copy is an infringement and you can be sued. Note that our patent laws here are very strict and this may be different in other countries.
Next there is the issue of non-patented designs and whether they have been put into the public domain or not. Some speaker designs have, in fact, been put into the public domain by the originators without any further restrictions and those are perfectly fine to copy.
But not all are done that way. Some designs have been put into the public domain with the specific restriction that they can be built for personal use only, and that they cannot be built and resold as a commercial product. That permission has not been granted by the original designer. It is still a proprietary item. To build and resell his design without his permission is essential stealing his ideas for your own profit. It may not illegal, but it is absolutely wrong.
Finally, there are designs that have not been put into the public domain at all. These designs are generally available in the form of a kit that includes all the components necessary to build the speaker and all the details as well including the crossover circuit.
These designs are proprietary and are not to be shared by the purchaser with anyone else. They are strictly licensed to the kit buyer and to no one else. Generally in this situation the original designer receives a commission, usually a fairly small one, from the vendor who sells the kit. This is a perfectly sensible and fair arrangement and anyone who tries to go around it by obtaining the kit details and schematic information illegally is essentially stealing from the kit designer.
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So classicalfan,
In your country (which is clearly not "The World" to many), do these laws apply equally to commercial designs as well, or is it for individuals alone? If it's the latter then once again, I would advice the kids to read, write and learn the work/art and improve/surpass/beat such designs, so that they won't need to copy them anymore. I suppose knowledge is perfectly legal in your country isn't it?
And why do you say that commerical designs are "crappy"? Or are you a judgemental person in general?
Why do you endorse "kits" so much and not designs ? Do you sell kits for your speakers ? I'm sorry but I feel like asking you.
In your country (which is clearly not "The World" to many), do these laws apply equally to commercial designs as well, or is it for individuals alone? If it's the latter then once again, I would advice the kids to read, write and learn the work/art and improve/surpass/beat such designs, so that they won't need to copy them anymore. I suppose knowledge is perfectly legal in your country isn't it?
And why do you say that commerical designs are "crappy"? Or are you a judgemental person in general?
Why do you endorse "kits" so much and not designs ? Do you sell kits for your speakers ? I'm sorry but I feel like asking you.
That's a very good point and if no tool lending library is available nearby there is still another way to easily get clamps. Harbor Freight sells a variety of very cheap clamps. They are junky, but can get the job done. At least for a few speaker builds.
When I first started woodworking that's what I bought and still have some, but rarely use them anymore. They don't even begin to compare with my Bessey and Jorgensen clamps, but those are much more expensive and probably don't make sense if you are only going to build a few sets of speakers.
I believe that diysoundgroup offers some precut cabinet parts, particularly the front panels, for some of their kits. Likewise Parts Express provides knock down cabinet pieces for some of their speaker kits.
Clamps and glue are then all you need. I would recommend Titebond III for the glue.
Boy, it’s hard to get through to you. I’ve tried twice already to explain everything and I’m not sure how to explain it any better.
I have the distinct impression that you believe it is perfectly alright to copy other people’s work without giving them what might be a due and appropriate compensation for their effort.
You seem to be fighting the idea that a kit represents an outstanding value to the buyer even if part of the cost is passed on to the designer as a commission.
And just for the record, I do not sell kits and have no financial interest whatsoever in their market. If fact, quite the opposite. I am a consumer of kits and have bought and built them for my own use.
I do that because as I have said several times kits represent an outstanding value to the consumer. They typically provide performance that matches and often exceeds the sound quality from commercial products costing anywhere from 5 to 10 times as much.
I also have no problem whatsoever with the vendor I purchase a kit from including a fee in the purchase price that ultimately goes to the original designer in the form of a commission. In fact, I would not want it to be otherwise.
However, I sense that you do not believe in this system and would be perfectly happy to find a way around it and not compensate the designer at all. If that is true, I think it is very unfortunate.
I read that he wanted more bass on low levels, in other words high sensitivity and as such big speaker since he did not care about the looks. I guess we both only read half the story. Not sure why horns have bad imaging though, do they really? I don’t even know what imaging means so I focused on the bass part, cost and the waf in my advice.
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I wouldnt say horns cant give good soundstage and imaging. My first speakers had horn supertweeters that looked similar to those on N3rd current speakers. After solving some acoustical issues of my room and careful speakers placing I got very nice soundstage and imaging. Hence my previous recommendation to N3rd to experiment before cashing out for new speakers.
For sake of discussion let us say youre right.
If speakers arent under warranty, replacing those horns with some nice dome type and adjusting the crossover should be pretty straightforward diy work.You can always put old components back if you dont like the results.
Even if you pay professional to do this its much cheaper than £4K.
And regarding bass issue, its 12in woofer vented box with regulators on mid and tweet with ability to attenuate them up to -16dB. If he cant get enough bass out of that problem is somewhere else.
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Thanks Again
Hello Everyone,
I've just had an amazing offer for a pair of new Tannoy Legacy Ardens for only a little more than the price of the kit I was considering.
I feel I'd be mad not to buy them at such a good price.
Once again, my thanks to everyone taking the time to post.
Keep on enjoying the music,
N3rd.
Hello Everyone,
I've just had an amazing offer for a pair of new Tannoy Legacy Ardens for only a little more than the price of the kit I was considering.
I feel I'd be mad not to buy them at such a good price.
Once again, my thanks to everyone taking the time to post.
Keep on enjoying the music,
N3rd.
Not at all, I do understand all what you say, don't worry.
classicalfan said:
I'm just saying that it's like the commercial units being "cloned", which is considered rather harmless. So why is all sympathy towards lone designers and why a such harsh take on companies? After all, a lot of kits still make use of commercial woofers, horns etc., don't they? Furthermore, when these loner designers and companies both belong to the same industry, why discriminate between them? To me, anybody who sells a commodity is a seller, no emotions, just business.
Kit under consideration: Visaton MONITOR 890 MK III
2 x 12" woofers: 500$-600$ approx.
2 x 800Hz 1" compression driver: 500$ again? For what, that's double the price for DE-250s.
2 x 5kHz HF driver: Another 500$ for these small things?
Miscellaneous components: No idea, maybe 1000$?
Note that there's still a long way to £3xxx.
I'm sorry but I clearly see outrageous prices (with sparse technical details), leading to very wide margins for the designer and the manufacturer. Now, is that known as "outstanding value to the customer"? I really doubt anybody would agree.
The kit already costs much more than high-end commercial units capable of delivering more than twice as much power in a professional setup. Thus, finding commercial products costing ten times as much, by itself, becomes a very difficult job indeed. As I already mentioned earlier, a pair of IMAX speakers may not cost so much.
Though I like certain designs, I do not have to copy them, as I have some technical knowledge and practical wisdom to go ahead and make my own. I hope you realise that may not be true of beginners, and therefore have to be warned of expensive / wasteful attempts well before they try anything.
Regards.
Dear N3rd,
An effective solution for improving both imaging and bass would be to add a baffle wall, as seen in the following picture.
Well, as Australians over 50 would say, "Value!" (i.e. congratulations) : well done.
Tannoys are generally excellent speakers. In England, "Tannoy" has attained the status of 'Biro', 'Hoover' or 'Transit' as a generic noun for a product, so they must be doing something right.
Happy listening!
Geoff
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To be fair, that kit is far, far more expensive and complex to build than just about any other high end DIY kit or project. It's really not a good example to use for the 'DIY v Retail' comparison.
Given the choice between that or the new Tannoys, I'd go for the Tannoys and save on the headache pills from trying to build the cabinet; if I didn't like the sound I could always sell them.
I've never heard the Visatons of course, maybe they're fabulous, but much better value can be obtained elsewhere. High end and widely built designs by Dennis Murphy, Paul Carmody, the late Jeff Bagby, Curt Campbell and other noted and awarded designers can be built for about a third to half the price of that kit.
Geoff
Dennis Murphy has designed half of a standalone loudspeaker (well maybe two or three no more, no ? The Philharmonnic that has received great kudos). In what he should be compared to Jeff Bagby ??? They are not in the same league imho !
If the Philharmonic is certainly a very good speaker, it's not speacialy gifted and there are a lot of choice for the monney as it's one of the trigger in this thread; many good brands as we see here linked or in US like for instance one over thousands : Audiophile Loudspeakers and Subwoofers for Home Theater and Music - Ascend Acoustics, renowned speakers,subs,audio for price near the the Philharmonic.
There are many good reviewers all over the world but that are less advirtised by the merchand and social networks. Not to want to polemic but I'm a little fed up with officionados that always have epiphany cause they follow the light (oh sorry, the internet datas). Not an attack or personal critics ! But I think it's hard to read some can automatically do better than great companies like Neumann for instance that makes neutral and well disseaping loudspeakers for monotoring... with damped curved front baffle with WG embeded into the baffler with neutral polymer and so on for the 1800 euros one cabinet with great made in house dome mid a la Volt. There are often hypes and some will eat the back products of sheeps if they read it's like caviar ! Followers !
All of this must be sorted out with more sense...
If the Philharmonic is certainly a very good speaker, it's not speacialy gifted and there are a lot of choice for the monney as it's one of the trigger in this thread; many good brands as we see here linked or in US like for instance one over thousands : Audiophile Loudspeakers and Subwoofers for Home Theater and Music - Ascend Acoustics, renowned speakers,subs,audio for price near the the Philharmonic.
There are many good reviewers all over the world but that are less advirtised by the merchand and social networks. Not to want to polemic but I'm a little fed up with officionados that always have epiphany cause they follow the light (oh sorry, the internet datas). Not an attack or personal critics ! But I think it's hard to read some can automatically do better than great companies like Neumann for instance that makes neutral and well disseaping loudspeakers for monotoring... with damped curved front baffle with WG embeded into the baffler with neutral polymer and so on for the 1800 euros one cabinet with great made in house dome mid a la Volt. There are often hypes and some will eat the back products of sheeps if they read it's like caviar ! Followers !
All of this must be sorted out with more sense...
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Diyiggy, audiophiles keep repeating the same stuff, over and over again. They are interested mostly in presenting themselves in a certain light. They are like cheerleaders, only not that pretty.
hahaha, right, me the first btw ! Ah I vote for the four legs cheerleaders at home, hope just one will not explode the ceilling during flip flop figures 
I have run out of patience and time going around an around with you on this subject.
Here is the simple fact, whether you choose to accept it or not. Complete speaker kits designed by some very capable and talented people and offered to the public by several well respected vendors represent a tremendous value to the DIY community.
That is a fact.
Actually those kits usually cost no more than the price of buying the individual components separately. And sometimes when put on sale they cost even less. And yes, in some cases there may be a small added amount that is paid back to the original designer as compensation for his work. If you have a problem with that concept it is very unfortunate. And if you think it is appropriate to find a way around it and deny the original designer his fee, that is even worse.
The example you keep bringing up with the Visaton MONITOR 890 MK III appears to be an outlier to the general case and needs to be totally ignored in this discussion. It does not represent the speaker kit market at all. Not even close. See Post #73 for GeoffMillar’s explanation regarding that particular speaker.
The only reason I keep responding to you is that I don’t want any beginners who may be following this thread to be discourage from buying well respected kits based on your false information. You can choose to do whatever you like. But please stop trying to mislead other people based on your agenda.
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Classicalfan, your description of some commercial products as "crappy sounding" in #32, is equally likely to mislead other people similarly. Since you may not be able to justify such derogatory terms used by you in a proper manner ever, please refrain from using such words in future.
And, just so that you know, I have absolutely no issues with a designer making money from his own work. I was just pointing out the bias you have been showing towards individual designers.
Thank you.
And, just so that you know, I have absolutely no issues with a designer making money from his own work. I was just pointing out the bias you have been showing towards individual designers.
Thank you.
And I stand 100% by my comment in #32 about crappy sounding speakers. What I was referring to specifically was the Behringer B2031A Studio Monitor that diyiggy had promoted as being something people on this forum should consider.
It is nothing more than a cheap studio monitor with poor performance and not worthy of consideration for high quality sound. Here is a quote from one the reviewers of that speaker.
"It's a shame that the tweeter is not as good as the one on the JBL's, and will probably bother you at some point while listening to them."
I think crappy sound is a very good way to describe this speaker.
Your comment that you have no issues with a designer making money from his own work seems to be in total contradiction to some of you earlier statements in this thread. But rather them dwell on them, I'll accept your current one.
Finally, I have no idea what you mean about me showing bias towards individial designers.
To help people reading this thread, here's a small selection of floor standing kits or DIY designs at different price points and from various suppliers to give some idea of what's around. Some even include cabinets or CNC cut baffles. Prices are $US unless stated otherwise. I'm not 'recommending' any particular design but have noted what I've built:
· https://www.parts-express.com/Solstice-MLTL-Reference-Tower-Speaker-Kit-300-708 $1200 pr incl. cabinets
· https://www.parts-express.com/Amiga-MT-Tower-Speaker-Kit-With-Knock-Down-Cabinet-300-7124 $370 pr incl cabinets
· https://www.parts-express.com/TriTrix-MTM-TL-Speaker-Components-And-Cabinet-Kit-Pair-300-702 $335 pr incl cabinets
· https://rhythmaudiodesign.com/collections/speaker-kits/products/slapshot-mtm-speaker $436 pr incl. baffle
· https://meniscusaudio.com/product/classix-2-5-loudspeaker-kit/ $228 pr not incl cabinets
· Elsinore speakers (discussion on this site) about A$3000 not incl cabinets
· https://www.sites.google.com/site/undefinition/floorstanding-speakers/tarkus (no kit available, but parts under $500 pr)
· https://www.hifisound.de/en/Do-it-yourself-Products/speaker-kits/Floorstand/Hobby-Hifi-Visaton-B80-Speaker-KIT-without-Cabinet-Standard.html 778 euros pr, not incl cabinets (just to show I'm not anti-Visaton)
· https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/prestige.htm 1600 euros pr without cabinets
· https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/startairkit_en.htm 198 euros pr without cabinets
That gives a wide price range and choice of suppliers in case some brands of drivers are n/a where you live. Cabinets where supplied are of course 'knock down' and need assembling and finishing.
Of these designs, I've built the Tritrix and Slapshots: both sound great and will give anything at their price points, or several times more, a more than decent run for its money. As will, I expect, the other speakers listed above. I built a similar design to the Startair, same drivers but different crossover.
The Classix 2.5 are on my 'to build when I need more speakers' list, I've built the Classix II and they're great, so I would expect the 2.5s to be even better. I would have suggested the 2.5s to the OP but they were so far below his budget I didn't think of it at the time!
HTH
Geoff
· https://www.parts-express.com/Solstice-MLTL-Reference-Tower-Speaker-Kit-300-708 $1200 pr incl. cabinets
· https://www.parts-express.com/Amiga-MT-Tower-Speaker-Kit-With-Knock-Down-Cabinet-300-7124 $370 pr incl cabinets
· https://www.parts-express.com/TriTrix-MTM-TL-Speaker-Components-And-Cabinet-Kit-Pair-300-702 $335 pr incl cabinets
· https://rhythmaudiodesign.com/collections/speaker-kits/products/slapshot-mtm-speaker $436 pr incl. baffle
· https://meniscusaudio.com/product/classix-2-5-loudspeaker-kit/ $228 pr not incl cabinets
· Elsinore speakers (discussion on this site) about A$3000 not incl cabinets
· https://www.sites.google.com/site/undefinition/floorstanding-speakers/tarkus (no kit available, but parts under $500 pr)
· https://www.hifisound.de/en/Do-it-yourself-Products/speaker-kits/Floorstand/Hobby-Hifi-Visaton-B80-Speaker-KIT-without-Cabinet-Standard.html 778 euros pr, not incl cabinets (just to show I'm not anti-Visaton)
· https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/prestige.htm 1600 euros pr without cabinets
· https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/startairkit_en.htm 198 euros pr without cabinets
That gives a wide price range and choice of suppliers in case some brands of drivers are n/a where you live. Cabinets where supplied are of course 'knock down' and need assembling and finishing.
Of these designs, I've built the Tritrix and Slapshots: both sound great and will give anything at their price points, or several times more, a more than decent run for its money. As will, I expect, the other speakers listed above. I built a similar design to the Startair, same drivers but different crossover.
The Classix 2.5 are on my 'to build when I need more speakers' list, I've built the Classix II and they're great, so I would expect the 2.5s to be even better. I would have suggested the 2.5s to the OP but they were so far below his budget I didn't think of it at the time!
HTH
Geoff
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