If I had no little kids running around, I would jump on the OSMC as suggested previously in this thread. It undoubtedly sounds great and you could fool around with plugging the ports if your room were too boomy. I would guess that this would also tick your desire for nice bass at low volumes.
I personally believe that fooling around with dsp is also a great way to start learning about the physics of sound. Just make something, get a UMIK and miniDSP and start having fun.
Good luck. Don't let the banter of this thread put you off. It's super rewarding to make something yourself and sit back and enjoy the sound.
I personally believe that fooling around with dsp is also a great way to start learning about the physics of sound. Just make something, get a UMIK and miniDSP and start having fun.
Good luck. Don't let the banter of this thread put you off. It's super rewarding to make something yourself and sit back and enjoy the sound.
And that would be the same a stealing someone else's ideas and work product.
If you are not willing to compensate someone else for their efforts and contribution then go try to create the same thing yourself. Good luck with that.
I don't know what in the world OSMC has to do with this discussion of a DIY speaker build. Or the suggestion to start fooling around with DSP. Those subjects are totally unrelated to the subject at hand.
The OP simply wanted some help and direction in choosing a DIY speaker to build. That's it. Yet people here are making all kinds of suggestions that have nothing whatsoever to do with his request.
Well, that's not true since it's the designer himself who has published his design in the public domain, in the form of kits. After all, it's not illegal to use the same parts, parameters or specifications as someone else's, is it? If at all that's true, wouldn't it be equally illegal to clone Klipschs, JBLs, EVs, QSCs etc. as well, which many do anyway?
Besides, if the designer wanted to keep it all a secret, he could have done that right from the beginning, don't you think? And let us not forget that many of these designers have worked for some loudspeaker company sometime or other during their careers. Also, knowledge belongs to the one who understands things and that could just be anybody who has taken the pains.
The more important thing to note here is that these "bigheads" as well as the loudspeaker companies are all very knowledgeable people and to beat their designs takes a lot of learning (knowledge), effort, the right attitude (open-mindedness), time and (sad but true), money. So, it's very clear why DIYers need to obtain enough knowledge before planning to take on any reputed designs out there (from industry or individuals). It's not impossible, but takes a lot that's all.
Hence my recommendation, get knowledge, it is renewable, guarantees savings, and also prevents one from getting cheated.
Dear N3rd
I hope all the information and advice in response to your post has not confused you or muddied the water, people are just trying to help. It's reasonable to say that regardless of the above discussions, the one thing posters have in common is that they want you to be happy with your choice, whatever that may be.
Like all DIY-ers, I had to start somewhere. Initially, I was rather confused about what to build, having no idea about what would be involved or whether I would be happy at the end of the process. I had no desire to design my own speaker as I didn't wish to spend $$$ on measuring equipment etc and I had read enough by noted designers (many of who are mentioned above) to know they would do a far better job. As I said above, it took me a year to work out a short list of four projects! In that time I also visited hi fi stores and was consistently disappointed by how much good-sounding speakers cost here(Oz).
I've now built five pairs of DIY speakers - all others' designs - and each one has got easier in terms of what to build and why, construction etc. And each one blows away what I could buy new for at least double, or much more, the total build price.
For three of the builds, I sought advice from the designer on my proposed application, room size, amp power, sound output etc. That advice was cheerfully provided and really helped me work out what to build and whether I would be happy with the sound. I also sought advice when I was confused about a crossover layout, again, cheefruul answered.
Honestly, if you can follow a circuit diagram, work out how to wire up crossovers and drivers, can use a drill and screwdriver and get the cabinet panels accurately cut or provided as part of a kit, building an established design is not hard. I know b---er all about electronics, am ham-fisted at woodwork but everything I've put together works fine and sounds good to great, plus it's very satisfying.
Again, good luck!
Geoff
I hope all the information and advice in response to your post has not confused you or muddied the water, people are just trying to help. It's reasonable to say that regardless of the above discussions, the one thing posters have in common is that they want you to be happy with your choice, whatever that may be.
Like all DIY-ers, I had to start somewhere. Initially, I was rather confused about what to build, having no idea about what would be involved or whether I would be happy at the end of the process. I had no desire to design my own speaker as I didn't wish to spend $$$ on measuring equipment etc and I had read enough by noted designers (many of who are mentioned above) to know they would do a far better job. As I said above, it took me a year to work out a short list of four projects! In that time I also visited hi fi stores and was consistently disappointed by how much good-sounding speakers cost here(Oz).
I've now built five pairs of DIY speakers - all others' designs - and each one has got easier in terms of what to build and why, construction etc. And each one blows away what I could buy new for at least double, or much more, the total build price.
For three of the builds, I sought advice from the designer on my proposed application, room size, amp power, sound output etc. That advice was cheerfully provided and really helped me work out what to build and whether I would be happy with the sound. I also sought advice when I was confused about a crossover layout, again, cheefruul answered.
Honestly, if you can follow a circuit diagram, work out how to wire up crossovers and drivers, can use a drill and screwdriver and get the cabinet panels accurately cut or provided as part of a kit, building an established design is not hard. I know b---er all about electronics, am ham-fisted at woodwork but everything I've put together works fine and sounds good to great, plus it's very satisfying.
Again, good luck!
Geoff
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Those meaning to help OP should be reminded of post #14 where it's clearly stated:
"What I want to improve is the imaging and a bigger sound stage (if that's not mutually exclusive) and I'd like more bass at lower listening levels."
Do we call Dr.Geddes to explain again what kind of a loudspeaker images well?😉
"What I want to improve is the imaging and a bigger sound stage (if that's not mutually exclusive) and I'd like more bass at lower listening levels."
Do we call Dr.Geddes to explain again what kind of a loudspeaker images well?😉
I just have finished the cabinet of my classic 3 ways and it was not the easiest part, though I wanted mine to do it alpha to omega as a learning project as I have already very good loudspeakers x several pairs (I assume we are all hifi addicts here, it's a hobby also based on the learning)
What you say makes sense to me. In your country, people have the luck to have some big shop that sell true kits with more or less finished designs with the cabinet parts just to be glued or already finished. Or adress like Diysoundsgroup with flat packs. I liked also on the same principle what made here a cool member here on his site with ready made cabinet easy to shop : Audioexcite not saying Zaph Audio did it as well on a design if the interest of the original poster is to make something by hands.www.audioexcite.com & Zaph|Audio Europe base camp. While GB is a hifi country too, I'm not sure such ready made cabinet or flat pack are easily avialable, shipping from US to here is expensive and is money lost in the budget for a first diy project imho.
Zaph|Audio - ZA-SR71
Zaph|Audio : Behringer little monitor thoughts an more
a true time aligned passive : Zaph|Audio - ZD5 - Scan Speak 15W8530K00 and Vifa XT25
(@classicfan : no I didn't wanted to discourage the guy if you re read me, I don't accept this word you attribute to my post, it's just your interpretation; ok let's move from this sterile exchange, I agree and have understanding your point)
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Maybe speakers are not the problem. I never heard them but they look like deacent quality. Have you tried to experiment with speakers position and room acoustics?
What is position of your speakers?
If not already, you can try to put them against longer wall. In that way you can have wider spacing between them and side walls will be far away so unwanted reflections will be reduced. That may improve soundstage and imaging.
Some absorbing material on walls in places where first reflections of sound occurs should also help.
Tweeters should be at around same hight as your ears.
Position of speakers closer to rear wall should give more bass and different listening position can make huge difference to.
There are plenty of tutorials how to optimize the sound with such metods.
Maybe you know all of this, maybe not.
Point is, if you just go from speaker to speaker it wont help if problem is somewhere else.
No, I'm not drunk. I had no idea what OSMC stood for so I searched the Internet and all I came up with is Open Source Media Center, which apparently is an operating system related to the Raspberry Pi world. Hence my comment to you.
Going back over some earlier posts on this forum, however, it's now apparent that your use of OSMC refers to Open Source Monkey Coffin, which is obviously a type of speaker. Try Googling it though and I think you'll get the same result I did.
You are wrong in many ways. So let’s start with some clear definition of terms. I think that will help a lot.
A speaker “design” is different from a speaker “kit”.
A “design” is a document that specifies the components that make up the speaker. Namely the drivers, crossover parts, schematic, port tubes, and cabinet dimensions. It is an abstract, not an entity.
A design may be something that has been put into the public domain, in which case it is available for anyone to copy. No legal or moral issues at all.
However, a design that has not been put into the public domain is illegal for someone to copy, at least in the US. Other countries may have more lenient laws, but they are very strict in the US.
So even if someone were able to find out exactly what parts go into a patented commercial speaker and were able to actually acquire those parts and build a speaker with them, it would be illegal for them to do so in this country.
There are also designs by private individuals that have not been put into the public domain and for which the originator charges a fee to acquire the detailed information. This is perfectly legal and appropriate. And anyone whose acquires that information without paying the fee is stealing from the originator.
A “kit” is a combination of the parts necessary to build a specific design. It is a real entity, not an abstract. Kits are offered by several sources, such as Meniscus Audio, Madisound, Part Express, and diysoundgroup, at least in the US. There may be different sources that I have not identified in other countries. Troels Gravesen’s kits are sold by Jensen, for example, mainly in Europe.
Kits generally contain all of the parts needed to build a speaker, but not the cabinet. There are some exceptions, however, where the cabinet, or cabinet pieces, are included.
When you buy a kit you pay essentially the same amount of money that it would cost you to buy each of the components individually. The vendor gathers these components into a single bundle, i.e., a “kit”, as a convenience in ordering both for you and the vendor.
Your idea that somehow or other the kit suppliers “just take big money from beginners” is entirely false and without any merit whatsoever. In fact quite the opposite is true. Sometimes these vendors put kits on sale where the cost is now considerably LESS than it would be to buy the individual components.
Now there may be an amount in the kit price added to cost of the parts that goes back to the original designer as a commission. It is usually fairly small and is entirely deserved for his efforts in creating, testing, and perfecting the design. If you have a problem with this concept, then you don’t believe in properly compensating people for their efforts.
Again, to build a design or copy kit that has not been put into the public domain and for which the original designer is expecting a fee, is essentially stealing from him.
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And also to note- if one were to build multiple designed speakers from public information, this does not mean that they are profiting at the designers expense- UNLESS the builder is selling them as a commercial product without the consent of the designer.
Public information as it stands is not free license to sell said information as if created on your own. Unscrupulous activities have consequences when proceeding against another person, especially if unethical practices are used.
IE- designs are work product and belong to the designer. If they choose to post this information publicly, these designs are still owned by the designer, and are not openly susceptible to theft by others with commercial profit as their endgame. Have a conscience, and don't steal what isn't yours, and obey the golden rule.
If it's public, build and enjoy, but don't make unsavory choices with that information.
Wolf
Public information as it stands is not free license to sell said information as if created on your own. Unscrupulous activities have consequences when proceeding against another person, especially if unethical practices are used.
IE- designs are work product and belong to the designer. If they choose to post this information publicly, these designs are still owned by the designer, and are not openly susceptible to theft by others with commercial profit as their endgame. Have a conscience, and don't steal what isn't yours, and obey the golden rule.
If it's public, build and enjoy, but don't make unsavory choices with that information.
Wolf
Actually N3rd did receive a few very good suggestions in response to his questions. Plus of course a lot of extraneous stuff that had no relationship whatsoever to his inquires. Pretty typical around here.
But thankfully he didn't ask about whether speaker cables can make a difference or not. That could have exploded the entire web site and really sent him away.
But thankfully he didn't ask about whether speaker cables can make a difference or not. That could have exploded the entire web site and really sent him away.
I’m just glad no one suggested to parallel couple a resistor to the bass driver in order to half the overall system impedance to be able to buy smaller inductors and hence save a few bucks on the crossover. Anything discussed in this thread is an improvement to that. Even cables would be a nice topic compared. I still suggest OP get a 15”+horn for about 5-700. Plenty of fun and lots of upgrade possilities later. Whether it’s a design or a kit who cares about the terminology as long as it is easy to assemble and sounds good and have a decent price for a diy beginner not going bankrupt.
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N3rd made it quite clear in his earlier post that his main reason for wanting new and different speakers is to improve imaging and soundstage compared to what he has now.
But I'm afraid that your suggestion for a horn speaker would take him in exactly the opposite direction, since horns are typically weak and compromised in both of those performance characteristics.
But I'm afraid that your suggestion for a horn speaker would take him in exactly the opposite direction, since horns are typically weak and compromised in both of those performance characteristics.
Actually, the only thing that makes a very slight difference in speaker cables is the difference between a cable's D.C resistance and another by comparison, all the other reactances are of little effect.
The DC resistance of a cable is effectively in series with the input to the tweeter and it very slightly attenuates the very top end of the tweeter response, too high for most of us to be bothered with, though cats and bats could be excepted.
So whether one feels justified in spending the many more dollars in hearing an extra db of noise or whatever it is not worth the fuss it creates with those that listen to music for the love of it.
As long as the D.C resistance of the cable is relatively low the bass and midrange are usually not audibly affected by it. I usually target the loop cable resistance (using Xsim in a x'over design) to around 0.22 of an ohm for an 8 ohm system. A 4 ohm system would require half that cable resistance. Mind you, contact and joint resistance and internal wiring of the drivers all add to vagaries that make up a loudspeaker.
So whether speaker cable makes any 'real' difference to the general music lover of pop, rock and roll, heavy metal, jazz, dance music, even movie dialogue or whatever the answer is probably no.
To someone who mostly listens to orchestral music maybe that is a yes. It all depends on one's musical preference I suppose.
For me, a beautiful sounding loudspeaker can be so captivating that it doesn't need to make a statement other than of itself, all other supposed enhancements is just marketing.
C.M
The DC resistance of a cable is effectively in series with the input to the tweeter and it very slightly attenuates the very top end of the tweeter response, too high for most of us to be bothered with, though cats and bats could be excepted.
So whether one feels justified in spending the many more dollars in hearing an extra db of noise or whatever it is not worth the fuss it creates with those that listen to music for the love of it.
As long as the D.C resistance of the cable is relatively low the bass and midrange are usually not audibly affected by it. I usually target the loop cable resistance (using Xsim in a x'over design) to around 0.22 of an ohm for an 8 ohm system. A 4 ohm system would require half that cable resistance. Mind you, contact and joint resistance and internal wiring of the drivers all add to vagaries that make up a loudspeaker.
So whether speaker cable makes any 'real' difference to the general music lover of pop, rock and roll, heavy metal, jazz, dance music, even movie dialogue or whatever the answer is probably no.
To someone who mostly listens to orchestral music maybe that is a yes. It all depends on one's musical preference I suppose.
For me, a beautiful sounding loudspeaker can be so captivating that it doesn't need to make a statement other than of itself, all other supposed enhancements is just marketing.
C.M
I couldn't agree with you more, but hopefully this thread doesn't turn into another speaker cable war. There are already plenty of those around on the Internet. We don't really need another one here.
classicalfan said:
No, it's not, unless you're selling them elsewhere to make money.
If copying commercial products for personal use (and savings) is not a crime, then not buying the kit (to save some money) is also perfectly legal and there's nothing that the designer can do to take you to court for that. At the end of the day, it's the buyer's money and it is he who decides where he wants to spend it and who should / shouldn't be getting a cut out of it.
I'm a designer myself, and I wouldn't share my schematics if I have any plans to profit from them. However, I also have intellectual content that I have willingly disclosed in the public domain. Now, if someone uses my publicly disclosed techniques someday, I won't (and can't) be asking questions anyway, as they were "given" for the benefit of the scientific community.
Stealing is the obtaining of information using unlawful means, like for example, hacking a website or retrieving the code from a microchip. Theft is a legal term, not a moral one.
I completely agree with the above. Saving some money by building yourself is not a crime. Selling that to others is different, which is however, not what is being discussed in this forum.
Cheers.