N3rd,
I forgot to mention the Satori WO24P-8 or the Satori WO24P-4 (3db higher sensitivity) are excellent low distortion drivers as subwoofers or even as Sub to lower midrange (up 600c/s as a point of x'over).
C.M
I forgot to mention the Satori WO24P-8 or the Satori WO24P-4 (3db higher sensitivity) are excellent low distortion drivers as subwoofers or even as Sub to lower midrange (up 600c/s as a point of x'over).
C.M
If you're not a diy fanatic, I would go towards second hand or ready made ; Behringer active, why not with a center sub. Your best bet : devices where you can set up the bass or EQ. Behringer B2031A Truth – Thomann France
good news , cost ten x less than the 4000 I have seen in this thread.
Something to consider is your not so high ceilling as well, ribbon monitors could match.
the room has not a big width too, quite classic size, you can consider such very good things like this : Neumann KH 310 A left – Thomann France
with the difference, go with a diy better digital source and amp, Atoll are not very good imo ! Active modern speakers are ok !
wants something more classic that costs you less than a first cheap diy : Elac Debut 2, add a servo sub .
good news , cost ten x less than the 4000 I have seen in this thread.
Something to consider is your not so high ceilling as well, ribbon monitors could match.
the room has not a big width too, quite classic size, you can consider such very good things like this : Neumann KH 310 A left – Thomann France
with the difference, go with a diy better digital source and amp, Atoll are not very good imo ! Active modern speakers are ok !
wants something more classic that costs you less than a first cheap diy : Elac Debut 2, add a servo sub .
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I don't agree with ANY of this if you want high quality, audiophile level sound. None of these cheap speaker are capable of delivering it. I don't see how they even come close to fitting into this thread at all.
classicalfan,
Why don't you enlighten us with your suggestions, I mean this is a DIY forum, we would love to learn from your expertise.
C.M
Why don't you enlighten us with your suggestions, I mean this is a DIY forum, we would love to learn from your expertise.
C.M
It seems to me that is precisely what I have done here and on other threads that talk about buying commercial products instead of building speakers yourself.
I’ve consistently advocated that people who have the woodworking ability, or know someone who can help them with it, would be well served to build speakers themselves. That in essence is the raison d'être for this forum.
What I don’t understand is why people on this forum suggest buying commercially produced speakers instead of building them yourself. And moreover I wonder why they are even participating in this forum to begin with.
And DIY speaker building does not necessitate DIY speaker design. As I have previously mentioned, there are many high quality designs and kits available from people with well proven track records.
The main issue for an interested person is to do the homework and determine which of these offerings best suits their listening environment and personal tastes. That’s the hard part. Build it is easy if you have the time, patience, and ability.
I’ve consistently advocated that people who have the woodworking ability, or know someone who can help them with it, would be well served to build speakers themselves. That in essence is the raison d'être for this forum.
What I don’t understand is why people on this forum suggest buying commercially produced speakers instead of building them yourself. And moreover I wonder why they are even participating in this forum to begin with.
And DIY speaker building does not necessitate DIY speaker design. As I have previously mentioned, there are many high quality designs and kits available from people with well proven track records.
The main issue for an interested person is to do the homework and determine which of these offerings best suits their listening environment and personal tastes. That’s the hard part. Build it is easy if you have the time, patience, and ability.
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"What I don’t understand is why people on this forum suggest buying commercially produced speakers instead of building them yourself. And moreover I wonder why they are even participating in this forum to begin with."
Not to difficult to understand:
There are many people seeking advice here that don't fit into that mode of wood-worker (at a level as good as or better than store-bought, particularly with regard to finish), and who couldn't/wouldn't spend the money to have someone do it for them.
Further there are those who have so little money to spend that they would very likely end-up with something inferior to a good low price commercial design even with good wood-working skills. (..this is particularly true when you factor-in full bandwidth reproduction and/or the potential for inexpensive additions to that sound system as with active amplification in a lower cost commercial product.)
Finally, there are those that have absolutely NO idea what they really want: for them it's often better to at least start "window shopping" commerical products to get some idea of what they want relative to their use. They might come-back to DIY better informed or they might not, it doesn't really matter if they get something they enjoy.
Also, the notion of "kit" from most sources is laughable.
It's typically not a "kit" at all: it's just the drivers and often an offer of *questionable passive parts for the crossover with perhaps some binding posts (even wire is often absent).
*as-in IF the purchaser actually wants each individual part that's supplied (..NOT with regard to the value's being correct for each part).
The real value isn't the "kit", rather it's the design itself: and that's often free. (..though Troel's designs are a rare exception).
Still, in this instance the thread-poster isn't one of these numerous exceptions: having some understanding of his/her wants for the loudspeakers and specifically stating an acceptance for having someone else do the hard work (and reaping the benefits, if at a cost).
Not to difficult to understand:
There are many people seeking advice here that don't fit into that mode of wood-worker (at a level as good as or better than store-bought, particularly with regard to finish), and who couldn't/wouldn't spend the money to have someone do it for them.
Further there are those who have so little money to spend that they would very likely end-up with something inferior to a good low price commercial design even with good wood-working skills. (..this is particularly true when you factor-in full bandwidth reproduction and/or the potential for inexpensive additions to that sound system as with active amplification in a lower cost commercial product.)
Finally, there are those that have absolutely NO idea what they really want: for them it's often better to at least start "window shopping" commerical products to get some idea of what they want relative to their use. They might come-back to DIY better informed or they might not, it doesn't really matter if they get something they enjoy.
Also, the notion of "kit" from most sources is laughable.
It's typically not a "kit" at all: it's just the drivers and often an offer of *questionable passive parts for the crossover with perhaps some binding posts (even wire is often absent).
*as-in IF the purchaser actually wants each individual part that's supplied (..NOT with regard to the value's being correct for each part).
The real value isn't the "kit", rather it's the design itself: and that's often free. (..though Troel's designs are a rare exception).
Still, in this instance the thread-poster isn't one of these numerous exceptions: having some understanding of his/her wants for the loudspeakers and specifically stating an acceptance for having someone else do the hard work (and reaping the benefits, if at a cost).
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Dear Classicalfan & GeoffMillar,
Do have a look at the amount money the OP is considering spending on a "kit" vs. the money it takes to get something as outrageous as this. To be honest, I do think that the OP is about to overspend, like many others have already noted.
Now, if the OP is trying to bypass the learning curve (and also get premium sound) by spending money instead, then couldn't that be easily achieved by purchasing from a reputed manufacturer? Of course, there is the question of "value", but can value be quantified? Classicalfan, can you define "high quality" yet? More importantly, do you know what the OP's understanding of "high quality sound" is? Now if a "kit" costs these many pounds/euros/dollars, then what would the whole thing cost, in spite of the boy becoming the carpenter?
Therefore, I recommended getting some knowledge (or design) instead of a kit. Note that this knowledge is required to some extent even if the OP wants a ready-made item. After all, what does knowledge cost a person these days, with the internet and all? And, can you even dream of beating a professional design in terms of performance, without ever having been to class (I don't think so)? I believe that one must get something in return for his time/effort/money spent, and knowledge promises that, kits may or may not, besides costing a lot and having the user carry out the assembly.
Regards.
Do have a look at the amount money the OP is considering spending on a "kit" vs. the money it takes to get something as outrageous as this. To be honest, I do think that the OP is about to overspend, like many others have already noted.
Now, if the OP is trying to bypass the learning curve (and also get premium sound) by spending money instead, then couldn't that be easily achieved by purchasing from a reputed manufacturer? Of course, there is the question of "value", but can value be quantified? Classicalfan, can you define "high quality" yet? More importantly, do you know what the OP's understanding of "high quality sound" is? Now if a "kit" costs these many pounds/euros/dollars, then what would the whole thing cost, in spite of the boy becoming the carpenter?
Therefore, I recommended getting some knowledge (or design) instead of a kit. Note that this knowledge is required to some extent even if the OP wants a ready-made item. After all, what does knowledge cost a person these days, with the internet and all? And, can you even dream of beating a professional design in terms of performance, without ever having been to class (I don't think so)? I believe that one must get something in return for his time/effort/money spent, and knowledge promises that, kits may or may not, besides costing a lot and having the user carry out the assembly.
Regards.
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Yep...this is what I have in mind with my answer
Seemed to me the word money...economical...then 4000 pounds were saying ir needed another point of reference. And I know Atoll products too
There are hiden cost when it comes to a first diy loudspeaker. The Berhinger was talked a lot here and a member made a diy with it on tje ancient passive version improving the stuffing and Zaph Audio said a pretty good speaker in his blog.
The Neuman is a reference and for a pair it save 500 euros and more to the 4000 british pounds. It do has wave guides for the mid and tweet and image well...made for studios and not necessarilly recording desk. It can be sold.
Seemed to me the word money...economical...then 4000 pounds were saying ir needed another point of reference. And I know Atoll products too
There are hiden cost when it comes to a first diy loudspeaker. The Berhinger was talked a lot here and a member made a diy with it on tje ancient passive version improving the stuffing and Zaph Audio said a pretty good speaker in his blog.
The Neuman is a reference and for a pair it save 500 euros and more to the 4000 british pounds. It do has wave guides for the mid and tweet and image well...made for studios and not necessarilly recording desk. It can be sold.
To newvirus2008 and diyiggy:
You clearly do not understand the value proposition for a DIY speaker builder to make something that has been created by a highly respected designer such as Dennis Murphy, Paul Carmody, the late and sadly missed Jeff Bagby, Troels Gravesen, or other similarly talented and recognized individuals.
And that’s OK. If you are happy with crappy low cost commercially produced speakers then it’s fine. Go ahead and use them.
But for many of us we already know that such speakers cannot even begin to provide the sound quality that a well designed DIY made speaker produces. That case has long ago been settled. And it is the entire reason for this web site to even exist.
So I just don’t understand why you are even participating in this DIY forum and offering poor suggestions to other people here. Perhaps you and your ideas would fit much better over at one of the several forums that are oriented to buying commercial products rather than building speakers yourself.
You clearly do not understand the value proposition for a DIY speaker builder to make something that has been created by a highly respected designer such as Dennis Murphy, Paul Carmody, the late and sadly missed Jeff Bagby, Troels Gravesen, or other similarly talented and recognized individuals.
And that’s OK. If you are happy with crappy low cost commercially produced speakers then it’s fine. Go ahead and use them.
But for many of us we already know that such speakers cannot even begin to provide the sound quality that a well designed DIY made speaker produces. That case has long ago been settled. And it is the entire reason for this web site to even exist.
So I just don’t understand why you are even participating in this DIY forum and offering poor suggestions to other people here. Perhaps you and your ideas would fit much better over at one of the several forums that are oriented to buying commercial products rather than building speakers yourself.
Classicfan,,i do not know what you believe you are. Your words are not very clever and a free attack witout sense. Sorry but I think on this you lost your reason. You should speak for yourself in spite of writting "us", I'm not sure diyers here, and I am one of those, want to be involved with such of your crazy and insulting words. And for what it worth I have almost 40 years of hifi behind me, also diy, and we are on a free world, so without your permission I will stay here. My advices imho feets exactly what I have feeled as an indecision in the original post and think for the monney in both of my proposal, I 'm not sure money for money he can have better if his goal is not learning and makes diy stuffs as we like to do, often not always for the music but for the spirit. And the world is maybe bigger than the few designers you posted, no ? Was it a real sinceer experienced advice for a beginner you posted ? Mine was, being there !
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I cannot see a single mentioning about requirements towards WAF. @OP is it ok to have a big and ugly box? That would make your life a whole lot easier. I wouldn’t ever spent anywhere close to 4K on a single DIY project, let alone my first. Why don’t you start small and then go up as your experience is gained? Find a nice sounding design for 600-700 of your liking. What about a 15” bass and a horn in a large box? Room is 20m2 but who cares. Seal the cabinet. Or is the wife a problem so you need some fancy *** slim towards with no dynamics or body? That’s when the price goes up. I have yet to see a pretty box sounding good. In DIY or consumer. Somethings gotta give and we can’t help unless you clearly state your demands. We can list every kit in the world but why? So far the JBL cinema is the most useful suggestion here but I’m sure your ceiling will not allow it. I’m sure there are JBL diy kits.
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You don't seem to understand the original post by N3rd. He clearly is looking for help in choosing a DIY kit. Here is a quote from his initial post:
"So, I’ve gotten it into my head that the most economical way to get great speakers is to buy a kit."
Some of us here completely agree with him and have offered suggestions on where to find high quality sounding kits at very reasonable costs. There are many available.
On the other hand, you have suggested cheap, crappy sounding commercial products that have absolutely no relationship to what N3rd wants. So that's why I keep questioning your posts. They seem to have no relevance whatsoever to the subject of this thread or to help N3rd find what he is looking for.
Moreover, you seem to be discouraging him from trying a DIY build rather than encouraging him to do so. I find that to be a very strange post on a DIY forum. It would seem much more appropriate on other types of forums that lack any DIY interest.
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WAF has been mentioned in this thread: I raised it as an issue to consider in one of my posts and the response was that it would not be an issue with this project.
Of course, WAF may well be an issue in the future, as would the large weight and size of the Visaton speakers when moving house, etc.
In terms of the original question, I'd happily suggest some specific high quality DIY projects, but I don't have experience with the effects of low ceiling height and don't have knowledge of how that effects sound, or which designs would work well in that situation. We have 12' ceilings in one listening room and ten in another. The garage/workshop is eight feet but is not a good listening environment anyway.
Geoff
Of course, WAF may well be an issue in the future, as would the large weight and size of the Visaton speakers when moving house, etc.
In terms of the original question, I'd happily suggest some specific high quality DIY projects, but I don't have experience with the effects of low ceiling height and don't have knowledge of how that effects sound, or which designs would work well in that situation. We have 12' ceilings in one listening room and ten in another. The garage/workshop is eight feet but is not a good listening environment anyway.
Geoff
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I think the dimensions of the room, 20 feet x 11 feet x 7.6 feet, might be a problem acoustically, so bass traps may be needed to help adjust for any possible boominess.
Of course I am thinking the room has no acoustic treatment at all, maybe just a couch or so. My home theatre projection room is an acoustic disaster when it comes to dimensions, it is almost a perfect 1/2 cube, 16.4 feet x 16.4 feet x 7.6 feet ceiling so I can appreciate what room dimensions can do the bass response of one's system.
Thus the emphasise on open baffle design.
C.M
Of course I am thinking the room has no acoustic treatment at all, maybe just a couch or so. My home theatre projection room is an acoustic disaster when it comes to dimensions, it is almost a perfect 1/2 cube, 16.4 feet x 16.4 feet x 7.6 feet ceiling so I can appreciate what room dimensions can do the bass response of one's system.
Thus the emphasise on open baffle design.
C.M
It's the way you criticize that is strange : cheap, crappy, etc. Your judgments also. Re read you yourself. Again I have given another choice. None of both are crappy, or you consider Zaph to have crappy opinions : that's for the cheap one, the Beringher. The Neumann model is very famous and not cheap, a little bellow the level of the max money the poster wrote. WTF ?
It's just a good advice and not crapy choice. I am not discouraging him, you have to learn to read and stop making rapid opinions based on what you believe to be true. I am ok with diy but I answered like if I was in his shoes : the sound and the money seemed more important than the diy route. I could have said Heissman acoustic also for diy and a cool 2 ways with a Wave guide, but due to the word money and economical I said to myself the guy needed another opinion that can make sense money related.
And at the end it is just my opinion to give him more choice, the guy doesn't need a lawyer, nor I need a judge in your person with your strange attacks because I should think like you.. Sorry again but that were your words that were crapy and cheap, not my advice, com'on and you continue : I'm discouraging him ??? It's a forum about the good moral where you're the guardian?. 😉 DIY sense is larger than you think. Again the Behringer was a lot talked also in the diy world and here by Maxheadroom member iirc who diy by tweaks this bank for the bucks little behringer. You judge speakers you haven't listened so your words are irrelevant. And I ask you again : who you believe you are to judge me ??? Do you see yourself the stupidity of your behavior, I should leave the forum because I advised friendly a guy ??? That's insane words! Ok, see elsewhere if I am there please or put my name in your ignore list. And please let the guy to choose by himself, I don't insist, he is free and certainly clever enough in his final choice, needs and what he want to involve. The good thing is to have several opinions to make once own decision ! ANd yes DIY can be expensive with hidden cost. Maybe the op cares or not, but he has to know and profits from other experience. I did that with that purpose and noty to start a religion war where you believe to have a role to defend what ? Remember me ?
At the end we should remember the op to take car about his not so high ceilling and to look at and consider ALSO perhaps designs with horns or planar for the tweeter.
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There is no point in continuing to go around and around on this subject anymore. So I'll just repeat what I said in my earlier post, since I think it pretty much sums up the issue.
"Moreover, you seem to be discouraging him from trying a DIY build rather than encouraging him to do so. I find that to be a very strange post on a DIY forum"
"Moreover, you seem to be discouraging him from trying a DIY build rather than encouraging him to do so. I find that to be a very strange post on a DIY forum"
Dear fabricadetabaco,
Oh, no, the JBL cinema speaker was not a suggestion! I was just trying to show how economical a high-end professional unit is (including profit, distribution, taxes and all) when compared to the OP's budget. I sincerely believe that this OP could get himself a pair of IMAX speakers for this kind of money. 🙂
Your idea of a simple 2-way horn is definitely a good starting point, that would let the OP learn many basic things about crossover, time alignment, dispersion, power response etc. It would also give him a decent sound (for a beginner) which if he doesn't like later on, could very well be extended to 3-ways etc. Besides, all this could also be very much 'DIY'.
Regards.
diyiggy said:
I agree with you on this. Classicalfan seems not interested in reading (completely) what others have written. Many posts have very clearly said that it is a "design and not a kit" that the OP needs to be looking for, in order to keep things economical. Kits just take big money from beginners, prevent them from learning the real thing, while also making them work the wood ! A commercial product would at least, give one a complete (and working) speaker out of the box, sometimes for much less money. It's that simple.
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Unfortunately, you have this completely backwards and have a total misunderstanding of DIY "kits".
These have been designed by some very capable people with far more experience and ability than most people here. The designs have been well tested and optimized by the originator for high performance and sound quality.
They are available from several sources and consists of the drivers and crossover components necessary to complete the project. The pricing is very fair and is usually just the current market price for each of the drivers and other components plus a nominal commission fee that goes back to the original designer.
Contrary to your claim, kits do not make big money from beginners. It is actually quite the opposite with kits bringing outstanding value to the beginner instead. Particularly when compared to a commercial mass produced speaker product that has tremendous manufacturer's overhead, profit, and dealer markups making it anywhere from 5 to 10 times more costly than a comparable DIY kit.
The only thing that you got right is that the DIYer does have to find someway to build a cabinet and not everyone can do it. But for those who can, the value proposition for building a DIY kit versus a commercially built speaker is overwhelming.
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Having been doing this since 1987... For most people I would recommend that their first DIY speaker build should be an established design... i.e. a kit. There are many "open source" designs available.
For many people, building kits is their main interest... not designing.
For many people, building kits is their main interest... not designing.
classicalfan said:
I didn't know about the the designer's royalty. In that case, the OP could get the same parts from somewhere else and only save some more money !
To the OP (N3rd), a few steps to DIY sound design (note that a kit bypasses only some, but not all):
1) Identify your preferences and requirements.
2) Weigh them against the constants such as room, budget etc.
3) Read about as many speakers as possible and download some free software (like WINISD, Hornresp, VituixCAD etc.)
4) Compare specifications, prices and parameters of several designs, while also simulating them.
5) Generate specifications for your budget, room, conditions, taste etc.
6) Add margins (allowances) to your specifications and select components that are highly likely to satisfy these specifications, after reading their datasheets carefully.
7) Obtain & check components and equipment including amp, processor and instrumentation (for measurement).
8) Fine-tune the specifications for cabinet, crossover etc. (software helps a lot).
9) Do the cabinet (or get it done) and put together everything else (damping, wiring etc.)
10) Get any room treatments done (if applicable / preferable).
11) Start testing and measurement, and as you measure, keep fine-tuning everything according to the results, until you're sure that it can't get any better / you're satisfied.
12) Try to enjoy this speaker and if you can't then get more money (cruel but true), sell or modify existing setup.
Please note that each step (even purchase etc.) involves difficulties and requires learning/time/effort/courage.
All the best.