Hey everyone,
So I have a problem, I love DIY stuff. Which has lead me to buy a bunch of stuff to basically never use it, and let it sit and go to waste. I have probably $500 in XO parts in a box and tally for drivers is $2k. I mainly use speakers for my home theater and music when it tickles my fancy. Just about every day im on Parts Express with some new idea and I have to shut my self down. Prices are stupid- anyway I have a bunch of drivers and well no use for them. And no matter what I do I can never get even a good frd measurement so I get really annoyed and stop.
Always wanted a design with at least one to two 8" woofer NOT PA- so i can have decent bass and a CD/waveguide as I feel they sound better then normal tweeters. (hence the 10 225-4)(Something like JBL HDI) . Im not apposed to using normal tweeters- hence the others-
The most happy ive been with a DIY speaker was when I owned ported volt 10s- but they are no longer sold- the woofers are $150 each now and coaxial are so fing expensive or garbage. Dayton has a 12" one with a "starter" xo diagram they provide but only 2mm xmax, yea useless if im going for around 40/60hz extension. (also I looked at it in WinISD- ewwww bad.)
See even now im trying to do something else- and it just always ends up costing me more money that sits on a shelf-
Anyway- should I just sell off the lot- or is there a diamond in the pile lol, or a great knockoff diamond.
Sorry for the ramble-
XT25SC90 - 5 pieces
SDS-160F125PRO1 - 5 pieces
RS100-8 - 4 pieces
RST28F-4 - 5 pieces
RS225-4 - 10 pieces
JBL D220TI - 4 pieces
Faital Pro 10FE200 -1 Piece-
Faital Pro 6FE200 -4 Pieces
Celestion TF1020 -3Pieces
Celestion CDX1-1746 -3Pieces
JBL 14-45 Waveguide
Dayton Audio H6512 3 pieces
So I have a problem, I love DIY stuff. Which has lead me to buy a bunch of stuff to basically never use it, and let it sit and go to waste. I have probably $500 in XO parts in a box and tally for drivers is $2k. I mainly use speakers for my home theater and music when it tickles my fancy. Just about every day im on Parts Express with some new idea and I have to shut my self down. Prices are stupid- anyway I have a bunch of drivers and well no use for them. And no matter what I do I can never get even a good frd measurement so I get really annoyed and stop.
Always wanted a design with at least one to two 8" woofer NOT PA- so i can have decent bass and a CD/waveguide as I feel they sound better then normal tweeters. (hence the 10 225-4)(Something like JBL HDI) . Im not apposed to using normal tweeters- hence the others-
The most happy ive been with a DIY speaker was when I owned ported volt 10s- but they are no longer sold- the woofers are $150 each now and coaxial are so fing expensive or garbage. Dayton has a 12" one with a "starter" xo diagram they provide but only 2mm xmax, yea useless if im going for around 40/60hz extension. (also I looked at it in WinISD- ewwww bad.)
See even now im trying to do something else- and it just always ends up costing me more money that sits on a shelf-
Anyway- should I just sell off the lot- or is there a diamond in the pile lol, or a great knockoff diamond.
Sorry for the ramble-
XT25SC90 - 5 pieces
SDS-160F125PRO1 - 5 pieces
RS100-8 - 4 pieces
RST28F-4 - 5 pieces
RS225-4 - 10 pieces
JBL D220TI - 4 pieces
Faital Pro 10FE200 -1 Piece-
Faital Pro 6FE200 -4 Pieces
Celestion TF1020 -3Pieces
Celestion CDX1-1746 -3Pieces
JBL 14-45 Waveguide
Dayton Audio H6512 3 pieces
It will take some time for people not familiar with your stash of drivers to figure out what you have.
I have just looked up what RS225-4 are, So you can easily do your two 8" design per cabinet, Now we need to go through the list of of what else you have. re CD/Waveguide, but also we may have to find something to fill the gap between the two bass drivers.
Maybe you would like to explain about your FRD measurements and what it is that you don't like about them and what you setup is for measurements and the room and speaker and mic positions. Can you post an image and explain what is bad about it?
I have just looked up what RS225-4 are, So you can easily do your two 8" design per cabinet, Now we need to go through the list of of what else you have. re CD/Waveguide, but also we may have to find something to fill the gap between the two bass drivers.
Maybe you would like to explain about your FRD measurements and what it is that you don't like about them and what you setup is for measurements and the room and speaker and mic positions. Can you post an image and explain what is bad about it?
Keeping the interest going with some projects can be hard sometimes.
I would keep it simple and make what you need then sell the rest.
I would keep it simple and make what you need then sell the rest.
HI Raymondj-
I don't have pictures on hand, I haven't taken a measurement in a little over a year. I was using UMIK-1 REW 16"away outside I guess as center as possible between woofer and tweeter. They just always came out really bad looking even after gating- I used Speaker-Scott(DIYRM) video on Youtube and basically copied everything he did/instructed. Did some reading on FB DIY group said similar so that's what I did, I can certainly try again, not sure my amplifier is worthy though of a clean response. Only spare ones I have now are Xantech PA1235Xx and a Elan Z600. I cant really take them inside as room is concrete floor walls and only 7' ceilings.
I don't have pictures on hand, I haven't taken a measurement in a little over a year. I was using UMIK-1 REW 16"away outside I guess as center as possible between woofer and tweeter. They just always came out really bad looking even after gating- I used Speaker-Scott(DIYRM) video on Youtube and basically copied everything he did/instructed. Did some reading on FB DIY group said similar so that's what I did, I can certainly try again, not sure my amplifier is worthy though of a clean response. Only spare ones I have now are Xantech PA1235Xx and a Elan Z600. I cant really take them inside as room is concrete floor walls and only 7' ceilings.
Ok, being outside what kind of window where yo looking at 5 or 7mS or maybe longer?
I will have to try to find the video.
Where you using your own design or somebody else's design. If it was your own design. Where you measuring the individual drivers in the box and then using WinISD or some such to model the Xover and combined driver responses?
I will have to try to find the video.
Where you using your own design or somebody else's design. If it was your own design. Where you measuring the individual drivers in the box and then using WinISD or some such to model the Xover and combined driver responses?
I was using 4ms - I was trying to do my own. Im tired of building others designs and being not happy. Heck one design I did "condor III i believe by ampslab" made my ears hurt.
I had drivers in box, measured each then as pair, used Xsim loaded each frd to respective "driver" One the last ones I did was XT tweeter and SDS woofer but distortion was stabbing my ears. I could only listen for 10 min or so and massive pain would set in.
"DIYRM: Basic REW Frequency Response Measurements" thats the video I watched
I had drivers in box, measured each then as pair, used Xsim loaded each frd to respective "driver" One the last ones I did was XT tweeter and SDS woofer but distortion was stabbing my ears. I could only listen for 10 min or so and massive pain would set in.
"DIYRM: Basic REW Frequency Response Measurements" thats the video I watched
Right, taking measurements is not easy as the video kind of demonstrates, setting things up and the various nuances of the software need careful checking and probably a few trial test runs so that you feel confident. Unless you have a tutor with you these things take time.
If you could only listen for ten minutes to a design may mean that you are really sensitive to the tonal balance of a loudspeaker or distortion how loud were you playing how many Watts does the amp put out maybe it clipped with the speakers impedance load?
Once you had experienced the ear ache did you try to resolve it. Maybe try listening to the bass on its own to see if that was the problem or the cause of the bad sound.
Maybe some additional attenuation of the tweeter could have really helped if you live in a very reflective room.
If you could only listen for ten minutes to a design may mean that you are really sensitive to the tonal balance of a loudspeaker or distortion how loud were you playing how many Watts does the amp put out maybe it clipped with the speakers impedance load?
Once you had experienced the ear ache did you try to resolve it. Maybe try listening to the bass on its own to see if that was the problem or the cause of the bad sound.
Maybe some additional attenuation of the tweeter could have really helped if you live in a very reflective room.
I wasn't listening loud- when pain started i stopped. I figured it was a fluke, tried again when pain stopped and just scrapped them I was using AVR to power them Denon 4500H,.
Currently using 123/Toid Cinema 10s but no bass at all and for some reason my AVR must be broken- it sees tweeter as dropping from 1kh to 20kh a total of like 20db. I believe it was the same with the Cinema 6s I built of his also lol but in REW it shows flat(ish). I could listen to those horns for hours no issues though. Only real issue i had with them is lack of bass- drives me nuts not being able to just play music without having to have a bunch of subs on.
Even my garbage Klipsch R-625FA speakers no issues- granted they sound like crap but zero issues even at loud volumes. Only positive thing about them is decent bass without having to use subs.
So im guessing my last attempt was distortion.
For a while I had dual r225-4 and RST28F but highs sounded lacking so I scrapped that also, i believe the xo attached is what I was using when scrapped.
https://toidsdiyaudio.com/shop/
Currently using 123/Toid Cinema 10s but no bass at all and for some reason my AVR must be broken- it sees tweeter as dropping from 1kh to 20kh a total of like 20db. I believe it was the same with the Cinema 6s I built of his also lol but in REW it shows flat(ish). I could listen to those horns for hours no issues though. Only real issue i had with them is lack of bass- drives me nuts not being able to just play music without having to have a bunch of subs on.
Even my garbage Klipsch R-625FA speakers no issues- granted they sound like crap but zero issues even at loud volumes. Only positive thing about them is decent bass without having to use subs.
So im guessing my last attempt was distortion.
For a while I had dual r225-4 and RST28F but highs sounded lacking so I scrapped that also, i believe the xo attached is what I was using when scrapped.
https://toidsdiyaudio.com/shop/
I had a math teacher at Brooklyn Tech who used to say, "give me 4 variables and I can draw a graph of an elephant and with 5, I can move his trunk".
Another favourite aphorism of mine is, "no error is too big to fix with silicone glue".
The truth of both is DSP.
But trying to get satisfying bass from 8-inch drivers may be beyond the powers even of DSP. The only parameter that anybody can hear is free-air resonance of the driver. Got to be below 30 Hz and when enclosed not too much higher.
Hard to miss in DIY construction except if you are fooling with tuned sub enclosures like BR, tapped "horn", and TL. Just making a leaky box is all you need to do. Try it.
B.
Another favourite aphorism of mine is, "no error is too big to fix with silicone glue".
The truth of both is DSP.
But trying to get satisfying bass from 8-inch drivers may be beyond the powers even of DSP. The only parameter that anybody can hear is free-air resonance of the driver. Got to be below 30 Hz and when enclosed not too much higher.
Hard to miss in DIY construction except if you are fooling with tuned sub enclosures like BR, tapped "horn", and TL. Just making a leaky box is all you need to do. Try it.
B.
A single 2-channel DSP amp, sure (*relatively). (..which shouldn't be a problem with a 10" mid-bass and a waveguide/horn-loaded compression driver.)
A 3-channel DSP amp, not so much.
(..though that doesn't mean you can't have a "sub"(S) with single-channel DSP plate amp - integrated with your 2-channel (as-above) speakers.)
*it can still be considerably cheaper to go with a miniDSP 2-channel board and some cheap amplification.
If you can't get a good measurement IN-ROOM then *give-up. (..getting a good measurement outside is a royal pain unless you have near ideal conditions.) Remember: pillows and gating are your friend when it comes to measuring inside (and moving everything else out of the way and centering in-room).
*though this doesn't mean you shouldn't try harder to get a good measurement in-room. 😉 (..in fact I wouldn't even consider looking at DSP/Amplification until I could do this reliably.)
A 3-channel DSP amp, not so much.
(..though that doesn't mean you can't have a "sub"(S) with single-channel DSP plate amp - integrated with your 2-channel (as-above) speakers.)*it can still be considerably cheaper to go with a miniDSP 2-channel board and some cheap amplification.
If you can't get a good measurement IN-ROOM then *give-up. (..getting a good measurement outside is a royal pain unless you have near ideal conditions.) Remember: pillows and gating are your friend when it comes to measuring inside (and moving everything else out of the way and centering in-room).
*though this doesn't mean you shouldn't try harder to get a good measurement in-room. 😉 (..in fact I wouldn't even consider looking at DSP/Amplification until I could do this reliably.)
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Elan 6 channel amps are pretty cheap lol I have one, not to sure how good they're. I have a 12channel amp but only 35w per- Xantech pa1235x. I can try in room again lol but no cabs at the moment. Might pick up 1" foam board like Xs fast build.A single 2-channel DSP amp, sure (*relatively). (..which shouldn't be a problem with a 10" mid-bass and a waveguide/horn-loaded compression driver.)
A 3-channel DSP amp, not so much.
*it can still be considerably cheaper to go with a miniDSP 2-channel board and some cheap amplification.
If you can't get a good measurement IN-ROOM then *give-up. (..getting a good measurement outside is a royal pain unless you have near ideal conditions.) Remember: pillows and gating are your friend when it comes to measuring inside (and moving everything else out of the way and centering in-room).
*though this doesn't mean you shouldn't try harder to get a good measurement in-room. 😉 (..in fact I wouldn't even consider looking at DSP/Amplification until I could do this reliably.)
Just thinking aloud, if you
I know a couple "absolute pitch ear" Musicians and same happens to them.
Worst is it takes weeks or Months of building to reach those 10 minutes listening, in my view way too much of an effort given the high probability of disappointment 🙁
And of course "you don´t know" until those last 10 minutes ......
With due respect, I suggest you forget "building" and dedicate your time to visit showrooms.
Try to listen to anything you feel may work, and when you find something that makes you happy, buy it, period.
It will save a lot of frustration.
Life is too short and already complicated to add any more problems on your own, just play it safe.
More expensive?
Not really if you find what you like.
(without puking or feeling sick) then I pity you, being that sensitive is not a "blessing" but a torture 🙁
I know a couple "absolute pitch ear" Musicians and same happens to them.
Worst is it takes weeks or Months of building to reach those 10 minutes listening, in my view way too much of an effort given the high probability of disappointment 🙁
And of course "you don´t know" until those last 10 minutes ......
With due respect, I suggest you forget "building" and dedicate your time to visit showrooms.
Try to listen to anything you feel may work, and when you find something that makes you happy, buy it, period.
It will save a lot of frustration.
Life is too short and already complicated to add any more problems on your own, just play it safe.
More expensive?
Not really if you find what you like.
Honestly, I think you are giving up too easily without addressing the issues at hand.
In the TMM with RST28/RS225-4(2x), you have a simple xover shown above. I'm betting your lowpass coils needs to be about 2-3mH rather than 1.5mH for proper BSC, unless the woofers are against the floor or cabinets against the front wall of your room.The 4.7uF cap seems a bit small, but in combo with the zobel it might be okay.
How big are the cabs? Are they tuned low enough?
I'm also betting you did not address the breakup in the upper range of the woofers, which will sound piercing or ring like a bell. This needs to be dealt with.
If all you wanted was more treble, then a small capacitor in parallel with the 3 ohm resistor could help. 2-3uF and increase to taste.
If the tweeter sounded badly, then you might need to comp the Fs of it. A resistor across of 25-40 ohms could be all that is needed, or a full LCR comp.
In the 2-way with the XT25SC90 and SDS, if you did not xover above 2.6kHz, then that is part of the issue. The tweeter cannot go lower, and has to have Fs comp because of what it is. I use a 30 ohm resistor in parallel with it to treat the high-Z Fs spike, or you'll hear nasality in male vocals. This is with a 2nd order electrical SXO style highpass. The midbass will likely play that high, and is either paper or poly, so it should be relatively easy to make it blend well.
In the TMM with RST28/RS225-4(2x), you have a simple xover shown above. I'm betting your lowpass coils needs to be about 2-3mH rather than 1.5mH for proper BSC, unless the woofers are against the floor or cabinets against the front wall of your room.The 4.7uF cap seems a bit small, but in combo with the zobel it might be okay.
How big are the cabs? Are they tuned low enough?
I'm also betting you did not address the breakup in the upper range of the woofers, which will sound piercing or ring like a bell. This needs to be dealt with.
If all you wanted was more treble, then a small capacitor in parallel with the 3 ohm resistor could help. 2-3uF and increase to taste.
If the tweeter sounded badly, then you might need to comp the Fs of it. A resistor across of 25-40 ohms could be all that is needed, or a full LCR comp.
In the 2-way with the XT25SC90 and SDS, if you did not xover above 2.6kHz, then that is part of the issue. The tweeter cannot go lower, and has to have Fs comp because of what it is. I use a 30 ohm resistor in parallel with it to treat the high-Z Fs spike, or you'll hear nasality in male vocals. This is with a 2nd order electrical SXO style highpass. The midbass will likely play that high, and is either paper or poly, so it should be relatively easy to make it blend well.
@wolf_teeth I had help with that xo so lot of it was beyond me. They were large towers 2.5cuft I believe 40hz tuned... Was a while ago, I chopped cabs to bits in frustration lol. I can always try rebuild and post everything here for verification haha. I'm a noob still- but I'm sure I can slap something together and test larger coils.
Is part of the pain simply using these woofers incorrectly by not making them the woofers in a three way speaker.
Just looking at the PDF graph I personally would not be using them above 500Hz and preferably around 300Hz.
Just looking at the PDF graph I personally would not be using them above 500Hz and preferably around 300Hz.
Or, not making them the woofers in a WAW (woofer assisted wideband) with the same 3/500 Hz cross. Have you ever listened to a WAW?
Maybe doesnt give that 10 minute disgust. Something to try - you can always add a tweeter in that last octave if need be.
I understand where you are coming from, it´s the standard approach, but (maybe I am extrapolating too much) I guess we do not have a purely¨ "acoustic" problem here.
Strong reactions like:
That said, I believe what bergarth says ... and because of that I guess he has "some sound in his head" which he has not found yet.
Randomly building more and more cabs does not seem to work, even if at least some must have been "competent", in fact it has led to:
😱 😱
so again I suggest him to listen to as many cabinets as he can (prebuilt by others of course, commercially or Boutique, at shops, Audio Fairs, Conventions, etc.) and when he hears that "special" sound, just grab it and run 😉
Serious.
16 inches is typically too close for proper integration between the drivers. Normally you want at least 2x the maximum driver spacing. Stereophile uses 50 inches as as their standard measuring distance, unless the speaker is very large. With large speakers or those using low crossover slopes, things may not really smooth out until 6-8 feet away (or more). If you're too close, small changes in microphone location will cause abnormal peaks and dips in the measured response that are only localized phenomena.
If you are measuring things in isolation or in the near field, that's a different deal, but it doesn't sound like that's what you were describing.
While the total quantity of drivers in your pile adds up a bit, I don't find the number of different ones to be out of line for someone moderately serious about the hobby. There are drivers that you just won't like if you are picky, and you often don't know until you listen to them. My general advice to people is to prototype early, fast, and ugly. Get the drivers into a box that's good enough to show the basic performance and decide if they are ones you want to really develop around. I typically only buy 1 of a driver for this kind of investigation. If it gets through the initial screen, I'll then buy more.
Having some kind of equalization and active crossover at your disposal helps speed things up. Whether that's DSP based or old school analog stuff doesn't really matter for basic sound screening (within reason - you need decent quality). Extra amplifiers that are known good are handy as well. Again, they don't have to be extravagant, just reliable.
Another thing I find useful is a reference of some kind to compare the new speaker to. This can be headphones if you don't have speakers that make you happy. Bouncing back and forth between a good set of headphones and your speaker project can help to highlight frequency response/balance problems that may be hard to discern in the measurements.
Some of what you are describing is just part of the hobby. If you don't like an iterative process and optimizing things, designing speakers can be frustrating. There's still enough art and personal preference involved that it's not always a straightforward path to speakers that make you happy.
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