Hi guys,
long time lurker, first time poster.
I have been setting about a project to build a battery powered mobile PA system mainly to use for busking using a loop pedal, but also for general party applications where a mobile PA would be useful.
The main requirement for the PA is that it is able to reproduce the bass frequencies of my african drums, at a volume at least similar to the source sound.
After doing a lot of research including a bunch of reading on these forums I decided to go for a
4*100W 4Ohm Class D Audio Amplifier Board - TK2050 As the amp module which I plan to run off two bike batteries wired for 24vDC current.
I have also gone ahead and purchased a DC 12V LM1036n preamp / tone control board to boost and shape the signal before hitting the amp.
For the speakers I have purchased a BEHRINGER EUROLIVE B1220 12" 2 WAY SPEAKER to get started with.
Now, I have seen an instructable page which suggests putting a crossover before the amp and using the left right channels for the high pass and low pass channels to further boost efficiency.
This seems to be a good idea to me, but I am not sure as to what I should be looking for in a crossover, and was hoping I could get some advice in this area.
I am also, not 100% sure about the pre amp I have selected so any and all advice that you might have to offer would be appreciated.
I would love to put a cheep valve preamp in there, but so far have only found AC ones available which doesn't look like will work with my setup.
Cheers in advance for you support and advice.
long time lurker, first time poster.
I have been setting about a project to build a battery powered mobile PA system mainly to use for busking using a loop pedal, but also for general party applications where a mobile PA would be useful.
The main requirement for the PA is that it is able to reproduce the bass frequencies of my african drums, at a volume at least similar to the source sound.
After doing a lot of research including a bunch of reading on these forums I decided to go for a
4*100W 4Ohm Class D Audio Amplifier Board - TK2050 As the amp module which I plan to run off two bike batteries wired for 24vDC current.
I have also gone ahead and purchased a DC 12V LM1036n preamp / tone control board to boost and shape the signal before hitting the amp.
For the speakers I have purchased a BEHRINGER EUROLIVE B1220 12" 2 WAY SPEAKER to get started with.
Now, I have seen an instructable page which suggests putting a crossover before the amp and using the left right channels for the high pass and low pass channels to further boost efficiency.
This seems to be a good idea to me, but I am not sure as to what I should be looking for in a crossover, and was hoping I could get some advice in this area.
I am also, not 100% sure about the pre amp I have selected so any and all advice that you might have to offer would be appreciated.
I would love to put a cheep valve preamp in there, but so far have only found AC ones available which doesn't look like will work with my setup.
Cheers in advance for you support and advice.
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You could run a crossover before the amp, but it'll need to be active and at line level. more expense and more power draw. You could also run in to the passive crossover of the speaker, and allocate one channel for high and one for low. No real gains as such, but gives you more control over mid/high levels
Why a 4ch amp for something that needs 2ch at most? I guess it does allow for building more in the future
Also, why would you want a valve preamp? It's not going to make a battery-powered behringer speaker sound any better!
Why a 4ch amp for something that needs 2ch at most? I guess it does allow for building more in the future
Also, why would you want a valve preamp? It's not going to make a battery-powered behringer speaker sound any better!
The 4channel amp was due to a few things.
1. value for money.
2. the ability to use it to also power a second speaker if desired.
I was thinking it would be good to set it up in such a way that it could be used with just one speaker for good portability in busking situations, but alternatively hooked up to a second speaker in more long term situations. parties, or festivals etc.
My understanding was that putting the crossover before the amp would allow the use of each channel for each individual speaker, so perhaps getting 30w to each for a total of 60w
Are you suggesting to run two channels to the speaker then using a passive crossover on each speaker to effectively operate as a passive high pass filter on the high, and low pass on the Low?
If there is not going to be a whole lot of difference in efficiency that way then it sounds like it could be a good way to go.
In regards to the Tube pre amp, I guess maybe I might have been being a bit romantic. I figured that building the nicest sounding amp system then hooking it up to a highish sensitivity speaker would result in the best sounding system I could hope for given the parameters.
I am also considering building the amp module in a separate box, and would not rule out using it with standard speakers to experience the great amp sound which people are talking about in between being used as a PA amp.
1. value for money.
2. the ability to use it to also power a second speaker if desired.
I was thinking it would be good to set it up in such a way that it could be used with just one speaker for good portability in busking situations, but alternatively hooked up to a second speaker in more long term situations. parties, or festivals etc.
My understanding was that putting the crossover before the amp would allow the use of each channel for each individual speaker, so perhaps getting 30w to each for a total of 60w
Are you suggesting to run two channels to the speaker then using a passive crossover on each speaker to effectively operate as a passive high pass filter on the high, and low pass on the Low?
If there is not going to be a whole lot of difference in efficiency that way then it sounds like it could be a good way to go.
In regards to the Tube pre amp, I guess maybe I might have been being a bit romantic. I figured that building the nicest sounding amp system then hooking it up to a highish sensitivity speaker would result in the best sounding system I could hope for given the parameters.
I am also considering building the amp module in a separate box, and would not rule out using it with standard speakers to experience the great amp sound which people are talking about in between being used as a PA amp.
Yes, tube pre is not a good idea, specially for mobile.
A solid state pre might run with a 9 V battery for days, since it absorbs very little current.
I second the suggestion of driving each path with its own amplifier, and you'll
have to put two more binding posts on the rear of the speakers, of course 😱
A solid state pre might run with a 9 V battery for days, since it absorbs very little current.
I second the suggestion of driving each path with its own amplifier, and you'll
have to put two more binding posts on the rear of the speakers, of course 😱
Alright. point taken. I will stick with the 12v preamp / tone control board which I have ordered.
Interestingly, I have just had a quick read of the manual for the Behringer b1220 speakers, and it turns out that they come equipped with a bi amping option built in.
http://www.behringer.com/assets/B1800X_P0104_M_EN.pdf
However it doesn't say anything about there being built in frequency filtering with this option, so I would suspect that I would still need to install either an active crossover before the amp, or a passive high pas / low pass filter on the respective channels after the amp, But then I am pretty new to this stuff so I could easily be missing something.
Interestingly, I have just had a quick read of the manual for the Behringer b1220 speakers, and it turns out that they come equipped with a bi amping option built in.
http://www.behringer.com/assets/B1800X_P0104_M_EN.pdf
However it doesn't say anything about there being built in frequency filtering with this option, so I would suspect that I would still need to install either an active crossover before the amp, or a passive high pas / low pass filter on the respective channels after the amp, But then I am pretty new to this stuff so I could easily be missing something.
It's ok: me, after 20 years of fiddling with speakers & crossovers, still find it extremely difficult to find out ....
I've read that Pdf and somehow the advice is if doing anything it must be done by qualified service personnel 🙄😛
So you have that speakon connector and the double position/ double switch to determine something ...😕
I would conveniently re-route each path to the correspondent contact on the speakon and eliminate the switch; or you can eliminate the speakon and put the binding posts.
I've read that Pdf and somehow the advice is if doing anything it must be done by qualified service personnel 🙄😛
So you have that speakon connector and the double position/ double switch to determine something ...😕
I would conveniently re-route each path to the correspondent contact on the speakon and eliminate the switch; or you can eliminate the speakon and put the binding posts.
From doing a bit of reading it looks like the speakon cables allow for 2 channels to be sent through one cable. A pretty elegant solution for bi amping the speaker and if I can use the already present bi amping circuitry and not even have to touch the internals of the speakers, That would be pretty clean solution.
either way I guess either the speaker already has the filters in line in bi amp mode, or I just need to install passive filters post amp but pre speaker cable
Yeah? or am I missing something?
Or are you suggesting i open up the speaker and re wire the low speaker to +1 -1 of the speakon, with its built in crossover still in line, and the high to the +2 -2 on the same speakon using the existing high crossover still in line
(still not quite sure what to expect in the way of crossovers / filters when I open the b1220 up, and how they can integrate with my system)
either way I guess either the speaker already has the filters in line in bi amp mode, or I just need to install passive filters post amp but pre speaker cable
Yeah? or am I missing something?
Or are you suggesting i open up the speaker and re wire the low speaker to +1 -1 of the speakon, with its built in crossover still in line, and the high to the +2 -2 on the same speakon using the existing high crossover still in line
(still not quite sure what to expect in the way of crossovers / filters when I open the b1220 up, and how they can integrate with my system)
This is one of the closest things I have found to a schematic, or explanation of the internals of the behringing b1220 crossover.
Behringer B1220 Eurolive Crossover | Speaker ExchangeSpeaker Exchange
Doesn't look like it would be too simple to decipher with out some serious help from people who know what they are looking at.
Perhaps easier to wire some passive filters on the amp side of that cable?
Behringer B1220 Eurolive Crossover | Speaker ExchangeSpeaker Exchange
Doesn't look like it would be too simple to decipher with out some serious help from people who know what they are looking at.
Perhaps easier to wire some passive filters on the amp side of that cable?
Hi, I don't think they put available on the speakon the two differentiated paths ( speaker + crossover, each).
But by looking at the picture of the rear connection with the switch it might be possible...
Since the crossover is part of the speaker ( you have payed for it !) you can use it.
The coil ( the big one) is on the woofer path; the yellow caps are on the tweeter path ( probably 3rd order filter : CLC ), plus some equalization ( C+R).
check if the two paths are differentiated by the switch or not, and if the speakon carries the woofer and tweeter ( plus the relative crossover filter) alltogether or differentiated.
Somehow you need to get access to the inside...
But by looking at the picture of the rear connection with the switch it might be possible...
Since the crossover is part of the speaker ( you have payed for it !) you can use it.
The coil ( the big one) is on the woofer path; the yellow caps are on the tweeter path ( probably 3rd order filter : CLC ), plus some equalization ( C+R).
check if the two paths are differentiated by the switch or not, and if the speakon carries the woofer and tweeter ( plus the relative crossover filter) alltogether or differentiated.
Somehow you need to get access to the inside...
The manual says that in biamp mode the 1- +1 goes to woofer, and 2- 2+ will go to tweeter, So that is definitely doable. The question is whether or not these paths still include the filters (I think?)
The link I posted previously is just a picture of a replacement part, and I am not even sure if it is the EXACT same model as what I am getting.
However if you click through the link and then click on the icon in the top right corner of the image it gives you a super zoomed in view. It also has images of the chip from front back and top. Might be enough for someone with a bit of knowhow to get a fair idea of what is going on, but its a bit much for me at this stage.
I don't have the speaker on me yet, but when I do I will open her up for you and take some detailed photos of the important areas, and I guess we can go from there.
In the mean time I am just trying to formulate a plan and accumulate all of the necessary parts.
The link I posted previously is just a picture of a replacement part, and I am not even sure if it is the EXACT same model as what I am getting.
However if you click through the link and then click on the icon in the top right corner of the image it gives you a super zoomed in view. It also has images of the chip from front back and top. Might be enough for someone with a bit of knowhow to get a fair idea of what is going on, but its a bit much for me at this stage.
I don't have the speaker on me yet, but when I do I will open her up for you and take some detailed photos of the important areas, and I guess we can go from there.
In the mean time I am just trying to formulate a plan and accumulate all of the necessary parts.
Sounds good; first you check your User Requirements then you can proceed in purchasing the things you need.
The crossover circuit is no magic, but it has to "fit" with that speakers in that particular enclosure. The job is already done so you just have to check if there is a junction at the beginning of the different paths.
The crossover circuit is no magic, but it has to "fit" with that speakers in that particular enclosure. The job is already done so you just have to check if there is a junction at the beginning of the different paths.
sweet. ok,
So i figured the next step for me was to understand how crossovers work so that I could adjust them to be used as separate low pass / high pass filters.
From what i have gathered, the inductors path will allow the low frequencies, and the capacitor path will allow the high frequencies.
Normally one signal will be sent through the circuit and the high frequencies will travel through the capacitors, and the low through the inductors.
So from this I am gathering that the aim will be to re wire the board so that one channel (say 1- 1+) will go through the inductors path, effectively acting as a single low pass filter, And one (say 2- 2+) wired up to the capacitor path to act as a high pass filter.
However my question is this: If wired up this way will more undesirable frequencies make their way through the path simply due to there being no other path of least resistance available to them? What happens to the other frequencies which are not "allowed" through in this situation?
Also, if we are trimming half of the signal away from each channel of amplification, do we end up with a stronger end signal by going this route? or would it be much the same as passing one channel through the crossover and making use of all of the amplified frequencies?
These might be dumb newbie questions, but I hope that showing my ignorance will have it quickly cured 🙂
Cheers.
So i figured the next step for me was to understand how crossovers work so that I could adjust them to be used as separate low pass / high pass filters.
From what i have gathered, the inductors path will allow the low frequencies, and the capacitor path will allow the high frequencies.
Normally one signal will be sent through the circuit and the high frequencies will travel through the capacitors, and the low through the inductors.
So from this I am gathering that the aim will be to re wire the board so that one channel (say 1- 1+) will go through the inductors path, effectively acting as a single low pass filter, And one (say 2- 2+) wired up to the capacitor path to act as a high pass filter.
However my question is this: If wired up this way will more undesirable frequencies make their way through the path simply due to there being no other path of least resistance available to them? What happens to the other frequencies which are not "allowed" through in this situation?
Also, if we are trimming half of the signal away from each channel of amplification, do we end up with a stronger end signal by going this route? or would it be much the same as passing one channel through the crossover and making use of all of the amplified frequencies?
These might be dumb newbie questions, but I hope that showing my ignorance will have it quickly cured 🙂
Cheers.
At this point you can make some considerations/analysis on the gain structure.
You have to check which sensitivity the amp boards exhibit; so you know at which input voltage you get full power at the output; probably you need more amplification before the amplifier ( referring to a "home" situation where you have the mains and the transformer would give any necessary voltage ) because the amplifier power is limited by Vs ( supply voltage).
Then there are the drivers: usually in bi-amp configuration ( with electronic crossover ) the woofer has an amplifier which is double power than the tweeter. Also the music contains more power in the woofer's range : if you disconnect the tweeter you'll hear no power loss, just a lack of the treble ( it depends also at which frequency the crossover point is set ).
Indeed, power crossovers are evil since they suck power; when making 1000 or 10000 W systems power losses are much greater than for a 50 W system.
Ok, gain structure 😱
You have to check which sensitivity the amp boards exhibit; so you know at which input voltage you get full power at the output; probably you need more amplification before the amplifier ( referring to a "home" situation where you have the mains and the transformer would give any necessary voltage ) because the amplifier power is limited by Vs ( supply voltage).
Then there are the drivers: usually in bi-amp configuration ( with electronic crossover ) the woofer has an amplifier which is double power than the tweeter. Also the music contains more power in the woofer's range : if you disconnect the tweeter you'll hear no power loss, just a lack of the treble ( it depends also at which frequency the crossover point is set ).
Indeed, power crossovers are evil since they suck power; when making 1000 or 10000 W systems power losses are much greater than for a 50 W system.
Ok, gain structure 😱
The amp board I am using is designed to take 30v max, so I going for two 12v batteries in parallel for 24v, going to 8ohm speakers this will give a max of around 40W per channel.
from memory my research found that the max signal input that the amp board can take is 2V
i will not be using the woofers as subs, but as bottom / mid range speakers, so while i will probably need to dial back the tweeters to match, I am not sure that they will require double the W?
I have been having a bit of a look at the minidsp 2 way crossovers. They look pretty neat, and quite versatile (albiet a bit more then i was wanting to spend on this project). What do you think about using one of them as an active crossover for maxW outputs and sound sculpting?
however that research also brought up another issue that I have not yet considered.
minidsp offer both an unbalanced and balanced version of the board. siting balanced as being best for "live sound"
Have I already made a mistake by not building this system with only balanced components?
from memory my research found that the max signal input that the amp board can take is 2V
i will not be using the woofers as subs, but as bottom / mid range speakers, so while i will probably need to dial back the tweeters to match, I am not sure that they will require double the W?
I have been having a bit of a look at the minidsp 2 way crossovers. They look pretty neat, and quite versatile (albiet a bit more then i was wanting to spend on this project). What do you think about using one of them as an active crossover for maxW outputs and sound sculpting?
however that research also brought up another issue that I have not yet considered.
minidsp offer both an unbalanced and balanced version of the board. siting balanced as being best for "live sound"
Have I already made a mistake by not building this system with only balanced components?
Hold up.
You're asking a lot of questions, which says to me you've been reading around a little, but not enough.
Your post #12 suggests implementing a speaker-level (ie, passive) crossover, for a speaker that already has that built-in. This, IMO, is actually crazy. The people at Behringer have done their work, and implemented a crossover that's likely better than anything you or I could design. Use it!
Later on, you can consider bi-amping.
This is where you filter the signal before it hits the amplifier inputs, so one amplifier only plays high frequencies, the other only low-frequencies. You then connect each of the amplifiers directly to its corresponding drive unit inside the speaker cabinet.
So you'd wire 1+/- to the woofer amp, and 2+/- to the tweeter amp.
In theory, this is a better way of doing things - you've got rid of the big inductor between the amp and the woofer, for starters.
In practice, you'll still struggle to beat the work Behringer have already done, unless you've got the measurement equipment to do it properly. Behringer might've devised an active crossover for those particular speakers - its worth sending an e-mail to find out.
FWIW, feeding two seperate amplifiers the same signal and then putting each one through crossover components to their own drive unit is ultimatel pointless: both amplifiers are putting out the same signal, so will clip (ie, run into distortion) at the same time. Feeding each amplifier a HF/LF signal seperately is much better: if the LF amp clips and the HF amp doesn't, you probably won't notice until its pretty bad. You get a bit more lee-way.
Back to post #12 for a moment,
" However my question is this: If wired up this way will more undesirable frequencies make their way through the path simply due to there being no other path of least resistance available to them? What happens to the other frequencies which are not "allowed" through in this situation?"
The components get voltage across them at frequencies they're blocking, so that the drive units don't. Remember P=IV, so, for a given amount of current (it isn't, but nevermind), the crossover component will be absorbing power, letting it out as heat.
HTH, and keep asking questions.
Chris
You're asking a lot of questions, which says to me you've been reading around a little, but not enough.
Your post #12 suggests implementing a speaker-level (ie, passive) crossover, for a speaker that already has that built-in. This, IMO, is actually crazy. The people at Behringer have done their work, and implemented a crossover that's likely better than anything you or I could design. Use it!
Later on, you can consider bi-amping.
This is where you filter the signal before it hits the amplifier inputs, so one amplifier only plays high frequencies, the other only low-frequencies. You then connect each of the amplifiers directly to its corresponding drive unit inside the speaker cabinet.
So you'd wire 1+/- to the woofer amp, and 2+/- to the tweeter amp.
In theory, this is a better way of doing things - you've got rid of the big inductor between the amp and the woofer, for starters.
In practice, you'll still struggle to beat the work Behringer have already done, unless you've got the measurement equipment to do it properly. Behringer might've devised an active crossover for those particular speakers - its worth sending an e-mail to find out.
FWIW, feeding two seperate amplifiers the same signal and then putting each one through crossover components to their own drive unit is ultimatel pointless: both amplifiers are putting out the same signal, so will clip (ie, run into distortion) at the same time. Feeding each amplifier a HF/LF signal seperately is much better: if the LF amp clips and the HF amp doesn't, you probably won't notice until its pretty bad. You get a bit more lee-way.
Back to post #12 for a moment,
" However my question is this: If wired up this way will more undesirable frequencies make their way through the path simply due to there being no other path of least resistance available to them? What happens to the other frequencies which are not "allowed" through in this situation?"
The components get voltage across them at frequencies they're blocking, so that the drive units don't. Remember P=IV, so, for a given amount of current (it isn't, but nevermind), the crossover component will be absorbing power, letting it out as heat.
HTH, and keep asking questions.
Chris
Thanks for your input chris661. I really do appreciate it.
You are right, I am asking a lot of questions, but have also been looking into this pretty heavily for a couple of weeks, but also like to understand as much as possible when approaching a project, and it seems to be the story of my life: The more I know, the more I know I don't know.
Behringer suggests the Behringer CX2310 2-Way Stereo/3-Way Mono Frequency Crossover as a crossover for this speaker, Which is an affordable price, but is a little big and I am not sure that it would be easy or efficient to adapt to a 12 / 24v rig.
My understanding was that a crossover simply filters frequencies and passes them to the appropriate driver. The spec sheet for the speakers posted earlier states that the passive XO frequency for the speakers is 2.5khz, And for bi amping recommends a XO frequency of between 1.8 and 3.5khz.
If an active crossover was implemented and dialed in at 2.5Khz with a slope of 24db
Wouldn't this be pretty darn close to using the same specs as the passive crossover that behringer have provided? Or am I missing something due to a gap in my understanding?
The main thing I was hoping to achieve through bi amping, was more power to one speaker using 24V
Meaning I could deliver the maximum of 40W (or whatever it turns out to be) to the LF driver, and then however many W to the HF driver are required to achieve a balanced sound.
Primary in my thinking is efficiency. (read max volume without distortion)
after going through the options it seems to me that bi amping (crossing over before the amp) is the only way to deliver this efficiency, but then it is also entirely possible that I might be missing something, and perhaps will not really gain much at all over simply running one channel into the speaker in full range mode and letting the existing crossover do the work for me.
Some clarification in this regard would be really helpful at this point.
You are right, I am asking a lot of questions, but have also been looking into this pretty heavily for a couple of weeks, but also like to understand as much as possible when approaching a project, and it seems to be the story of my life: The more I know, the more I know I don't know.
Behringer suggests the Behringer CX2310 2-Way Stereo/3-Way Mono Frequency Crossover as a crossover for this speaker, Which is an affordable price, but is a little big and I am not sure that it would be easy or efficient to adapt to a 12 / 24v rig.
My understanding was that a crossover simply filters frequencies and passes them to the appropriate driver. The spec sheet for the speakers posted earlier states that the passive XO frequency for the speakers is 2.5khz, And for bi amping recommends a XO frequency of between 1.8 and 3.5khz.
If an active crossover was implemented and dialed in at 2.5Khz with a slope of 24db
Wouldn't this be pretty darn close to using the same specs as the passive crossover that behringer have provided? Or am I missing something due to a gap in my understanding?
The main thing I was hoping to achieve through bi amping, was more power to one speaker using 24V
Meaning I could deliver the maximum of 40W (or whatever it turns out to be) to the LF driver, and then however many W to the HF driver are required to achieve a balanced sound.
Primary in my thinking is efficiency. (read max volume without distortion)
after going through the options it seems to me that bi amping (crossing over before the amp) is the only way to deliver this efficiency, but then it is also entirely possible that I might be missing something, and perhaps will not really gain much at all over simply running one channel into the speaker in full range mode and letting the existing crossover do the work for me.
Some clarification in this regard would be really helpful at this point.
Right, now we're talking.
Here's some reading for you. Click on whatever takes your fancy.
DIY Audio Articles
There's a section on active crossovers. Would you be happy with soldering a few op-amps onto some stripboard?
Much cheaper than buying an active crossover with all the casing etc.
Chris
Here's some reading for you. Click on whatever takes your fancy.
DIY Audio Articles
There's a section on active crossovers. Would you be happy with soldering a few op-amps onto some stripboard?
Much cheaper than buying an active crossover with all the casing etc.
Chris
Thanks Chris!
That page looks like a gold mine. I will have a traul through those and get back to you.
Any suggestions for particular articles that will be of interest / useful?
again it is a case of not knowing what I don't know.
In regards to soldering op-amps to some strip board.
That depends upon a balance between ambition and skill set.
I have not soldered electronics to a board ever in my life, and my experience with a soldering iron is minimal.
However having said that, If a task such as that was suggestible as an entry into playing with electronics I would be keen enough to give it a go. bearing in mind though that I do not have any specialty gear on hand with which to do so.
So in summary. Eager to try, but cautious of jumping in too deep to quickly.
Open to advice.
That page looks like a gold mine. I will have a traul through those and get back to you.
Any suggestions for particular articles that will be of interest / useful?
again it is a case of not knowing what I don't know.
In regards to soldering op-amps to some strip board.
That depends upon a balance between ambition and skill set.
I have not soldered electronics to a board ever in my life, and my experience with a soldering iron is minimal.
However having said that, If a task such as that was suggestible as an entry into playing with electronics I would be keen enough to give it a go. bearing in mind though that I do not have any specialty gear on hand with which to do so.
So in summary. Eager to try, but cautious of jumping in too deep to quickly.
Open to advice.
Hey guys,
So i ended up getting this all working!
Used a sure TDA7498 board, and minidsp for active crossover.
currently running of a 12v car battery, but I would like to move to a lithium battery for better portability.
Any suggestions on what would be a suitable battery for this? Hoping to get something from aliexpress.
So i ended up getting this all working!
Used a sure TDA7498 board, and minidsp for active crossover.
currently running of a 12v car battery, but I would like to move to a lithium battery for better portability.
Any suggestions on what would be a suitable battery for this? Hoping to get something from aliexpress.
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