blueskynis said:
DOH! This is abyssal!
Those signs are there to be used, but anyway, is it better now?
😕
People sometimes here seems to forget that this is an international forum and people from various nations-language areas come to discussion. Not all of them are native English speakers and sometimes those people have difficulties-troubles to truly express themselves and present to others their thoughts. I am one of those people and I am very confident that you guys have concluded what I wanted to say...
P.S. I am not an native English speaker, so sorry for any mistakes....
Cheers
Lumba Ogir said:
😎
The beauty of an expession. like a painting, is in the eye of the looker.
Actually is same way with TEXT Impressions.
They are different and Subjetive by nature.
How can we read this text of Lumba Ogir
examples,
of what people can imagine the SENDER meant by his ARTWORK
Remember that writing is an artcraft, as well, at times:
Ask Shakespear, the great english writer of Time after Middleages (1500-)
a) transistors are different and better than tubes
b) transistors are different and not of better tube class
c) transistors are different than tubes, but they both have better or less good qualities.
A good textual artwork leaves to the beholder to interpret.
A good song can be used in many situations, and do well in many situations
If I am a bit disappointed with my latest transistor experiences
I may tend to read in that Lumba, my swedish friend, and I thinks transistors are inferior to tubes.
One tubeguy suffering from a
heavy Valve-Inferiority-Complex
may hostilize the above statement,'
and get that Lumba is a real Sandman = Enemy of my loved things.
----
To examine and carefully try to understand one text sent to you comes not by only quick look
(unless you are specially gifted and high talent writer/reader).
So, to get one message when we have no tone of voice & no body gestures like face-expressions to go along,
takes a bit of asking your self.
In fact this, taken out of context, is a neutral statement, almost an UNDER-Statement:
It is a bit like saying:
There is no good-bad value(s) in his statement.
These characteristics are put there by a subjective mind and is very much dependent on the situation the reader is in.
And of course from surrounding ..... CON.....TEXT.
For to understanding a story, we can not always rip out one sentence.
We need to know the conditions, before.
Finally, Lumba Ogir and me, we know about the saying
that we swedish use, when somebody tries to twist our message
Get your copy!
Lineup's Collected Contemporary Writings diyaudio.com an d other publications :coool:
/lineup - the writer, sender of message above, Sweden 26 May 2009
Full copyright is reserved by Lineup himself!
..
The claim that the proposed circuit could not sound good really requires some explanation.
I asked a simple question; why?
The response:
"transistors don`t have the properties (capabilities) of tubes. " assumes that I would accept it on face value.
However that is not enough for me. At the very least I would like to know what properties tubes have that transistors lack that would satisfy the claim that the circuit won't sound good. A more specific comment about distortion, response, loading, voltage breakdown etc. would be much more useful. But I'm not satisfied with the simple blanket claim that transistors don't sound good.
I asked a simple question; why?
The response:
"transistors don`t have the properties (capabilities) of tubes. " assumes that I would accept it on face value.
However that is not enough for me. At the very least I would like to know what properties tubes have that transistors lack that would satisfy the claim that the circuit won't sound good. A more specific comment about distortion, response, loading, voltage breakdown etc. would be much more useful. But I'm not satisfied with the simple blanket claim that transistors don't sound good.
As this thread's only tube gear manufacturer (or so I assume), I do not automatically consider tube circuits to be superior to SS.
The circuit in question, a cascode of a low noise jfet or bipolar with a high voltage bipolar running off tube levels of B+should, IMO, have a very good chance of sounding very good indeed.
My choice would be a bipolar on the bottom and a hivoltage (preferrably not MOS) fet on top, but I personally believe it's circuit topology that makes the sound of the circuit, not just the devices used therein.
My tube gear doesn't sound like anything from the classic tubes world of (say) the 60's, as I use differential cascodes with ss CCS'es wherever I can, and seriously agumented cathode followers when needed. My emphasis is on bandwidth before distortion, and regualrly get 2MHz from zero NFB gain stages. But distortion is also very low, cicra 0.01%, also without loop NFB.
This low distortion is very much helped by the fact that you are only swinging a very small percentage of the rail voltage at (say) 2VRMS out (compared to a much higer percentage with only +/- 15V) than it being tubes that are doing the swinging.
Some of my schematics are on my website under the "Schematics" button.
Regards, Allen
www.vacuumstate.com
The circuit in question, a cascode of a low noise jfet or bipolar with a high voltage bipolar running off tube levels of B+should, IMO, have a very good chance of sounding very good indeed.
My choice would be a bipolar on the bottom and a hivoltage (preferrably not MOS) fet on top, but I personally believe it's circuit topology that makes the sound of the circuit, not just the devices used therein.
My tube gear doesn't sound like anything from the classic tubes world of (say) the 60's, as I use differential cascodes with ss CCS'es wherever I can, and seriously agumented cathode followers when needed. My emphasis is on bandwidth before distortion, and regualrly get 2MHz from zero NFB gain stages. But distortion is also very low, cicra 0.01%, also without loop NFB.
This low distortion is very much helped by the fact that you are only swinging a very small percentage of the rail voltage at (say) 2VRMS out (compared to a much higer percentage with only +/- 15V) than it being tubes that are doing the swinging.
Some of my schematics are on my website under the "Schematics" button.
Regards, Allen
www.vacuumstate.com
1audio said:
Carbon resistors are not the point. I was more interested in the difference between brands of precision resistors and the -140dB effects which often don't show up until you are at an appriciable fraction of the rated power.
Allen Wright said:
I can't speak about the sound quality, but such an arrangement (BJT/FET cascoded up to 300V) would be very impractical, for at least a couple of reasons:
- Power dissipation and cooling. Potentially, the heat may impact the noise performance.
- Size/volume/cost. All stages need to be cascoded, not only the front end. The low noise input stage limits the headroom only at high frequencies, where the RIAA correction stage(s) have a very low gain. At low frequencies, it's the RIAA stage(s) limiting the headroom, so those need to be cascoded to 300V as well.
Perhaps a hybrid version (something like low noise BJT/FET cascoded input stage and tubes RIAA stage(s) could do some good, but personally I'm not a big fan of such combinations.
To me, a headroom of 32dB as in HPS 3.1 is all that's required. This would pass undistorted up to 20mV from a 0.5mV nominal output cartridge (at 5cm/sec), at all frequency up to 50KHz. This is about three times the worst case level of a vinyl pop, according to any study I was able to find. Over 32dB, up to 36dB, semiconductors (discretes and a slew of BB high voltage opamps) could still be considered, over that it's tubes only.
What I consider as even more important than a huge headroom is clipping recovery. IMO, a MC/MM preamp can live with even 26dB headroom, assuming the clipping recovery is very good. After all, at those levels, something will clip anyway in the chain, so at least make sure it's the power amp.
Its not especially practical but very possible. However the flat claim that it won't sound good because its not thermionic just isn't enough.
I have a couple of examples of solid state amplifiers with very wide bandwidth and 100V RMS output so I know that there is no technological limitation.
I have a couple of examples of solid state amplifiers with very wide bandwidth and 100V RMS output so I know that there is no technological limitation.
scott wurcer said:
I have not measured significant differences between the Corning and the Dale resistors on the CLT-1 at -160 to -170 dB 3Rd harmonic. I have no looked at the cheaper generic metal film or carbon film resistors. And I have not check for differences on surface mount resistors. An interesting project but probably will find little to look at.
I have seen big differences between cheap audio pots and the premium brands (Alps and Nobel) both of which are not as good as resistors on a switch. The Vishay foil pots are extremely good as well, on a par with switched resistors.
I can't say these are audible differences but I will default to better parts where possible.
As usual, been there, done that.
The first example of these compound devices was the FETRON, a tube replacement back in the '60's. This was composed of a low voltage low capacitance fet as the driver and a high voltage jfet as a self biased cascode.
I built a different pair open loop version of this in 1973 for the Grateful Dead operating at 200V.
They didn't think much of it, however.
Then a friend of mine took 2 selected PENTODE tubes in 1974 and put them
into the same differential configuration. NO CONTEST, this unit could do .001%, WITHOUT GLOBAL FEEDBACK, at 40 rms volts out! And many here disparage tubes? There was NO CONTEST, as the tubes just trashed the jfet design.
The first example of these compound devices was the FETRON, a tube replacement back in the '60's. This was composed of a low voltage low capacitance fet as the driver and a high voltage jfet as a self biased cascode.
I built a different pair open loop version of this in 1973 for the Grateful Dead operating at 200V.
They didn't think much of it, however.
Then a friend of mine took 2 selected PENTODE tubes in 1974 and put them
into the same differential configuration. NO CONTEST, this unit could do .001%, WITHOUT GLOBAL FEEDBACK, at 40 rms volts out! And many here disparage tubes? There was NO CONTEST, as the tubes just trashed the jfet design.
1audio said:
That gets back to getting more people to try stuff. Decent film caps can be had cheaply enough to stock a home lab with a complete 1% range. Last I looked 100 bucks or so covered the 10 to 1Meg range at 50 to 100 each. I appreciate your instrumentation backround and realize you can't help but upgrade. 🙂
john curl said:
I defer to SY but I have never seen data that would support 60V p-p out of a simple diff pair @ 10ppm distortion. Dick Burwen used gobs of feedback to do that. BTW what distortion analyser supported that in 1974? I don't know if I would trust a stock ST to do that.
I saw it on my friend's ST in 1974. What you don't see, you don't believe, but I was there. IN FACT, I asked that the design be deliberately misadjusted (changing screen voltage) and ALL I saw was 2'nd harmonic. Do you know Bascom King, formerly of 'Audio' magazine? If you do, give him a call. He was there too!
You know, Scott, you would do well to give other designers a little leeway. We have been designing fulltime as long or longer than you have. We just are not trapped in one approach to do the job.
You know, Scott, you would do well to give other designers a little leeway. We have been designing fulltime as long or longer than you have. We just are not trapped in one approach to do the job.
This driver delivers 60V P-P on each of 2 outputs to grids of output tubes nominally, maximal voltage swing is more than 100V (200V differential).
http://wavebourn.com/forum/download.php?id=119&f=7
http://wavebourn.com/forum/download.php?id=119&f=7
That's a useless input, if I ever saw one.
Now look, everyone. I am only REPORTING my experience, not trying to give tubes any extra glory! Why would I do so? I don't design with tubes. I use jfets and mosfets, and I have 1000's of them to use up before I leave this earth.
Still, because I have found that 'inner honesty' is more useful that self delusion, I have to admit what I hear in a tube setup that really 'cleans my clock' and I would say the same about a solid state example, IF and when it presents itself.
I have found the worst handicap that a designer can have is 'inner self-delusion' where the designer never looks beyond his own training and experience.
It is like a farm boy thinking that his daddy's Chevy is the fastest and the best car in the world, because daddy 'hopped it up'. A serious BMW would seriously leave the Chevy in the dust, but the kid doesn't want to believe in BMW's, so that he can keep his 'inner self-delusion' in tack.
Now look, everyone. I am only REPORTING my experience, not trying to give tubes any extra glory! Why would I do so? I don't design with tubes. I use jfets and mosfets, and I have 1000's of them to use up before I leave this earth.
Still, because I have found that 'inner honesty' is more useful that self delusion, I have to admit what I hear in a tube setup that really 'cleans my clock' and I would say the same about a solid state example, IF and when it presents itself.
I have found the worst handicap that a designer can have is 'inner self-delusion' where the designer never looks beyond his own training and experience.
It is like a farm boy thinking that his daddy's Chevy is the fastest and the best car in the world, because daddy 'hopped it up'. A serious BMW would seriously leave the Chevy in the dust, but the kid doesn't want to believe in BMW's, so that he can keep his 'inner self-delusion' in tack.
john curl said:
Well said, John!
The real freedom is the freedom from own preferences and beliefs.
For clarity, each tube output is putting out 20V rms and they are differentially summed in the ST instrumentation to make 40V on the meter.
The tubes ran at an even higher voltage than the jets.
Wavebourn, you are mixing up the two designs. Please, try to not find fault with such relish, or I will respond in kind.
The tubes ran at an even higher voltage than the jets.
Wavebourn, you are mixing up the two designs. Please, try to not find fault with such relish, or I will respond in kind.
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