I don't see a forum dedicated to active speakers. Amp power and DSP comes cheap these days so surely most new speaker builds are active? I note that there are a few 'active' threads in the Multi-Way speaker forum but the forum states it's for conventional speakers with crossovers, I take that to mean passives?
If you search far enuff you will find that the membership cannot even agree to what an active speaker actually is*.
*(my personal classification is that an active speaker uses more than 1 amplifier with a line level XO, and a Powered speaker is one with amp(s) in the box with the XO (if there is one at all)
Those kinds of projects are typically in multiWay (if a typical multWay system) or in FR for WAWs (Woofer Assisted Wideband).
Go for it.
dave
*(my personal classification is that an active speaker uses more than 1 amplifier with a line level XO, and a Powered speaker is one with amp(s) in the box with the XO (if there is one at all)
Those kinds of projects are typically in multiWay (if a typical multWay system) or in FR for WAWs (Woofer Assisted Wideband).
Go for it.
dave
I must "concur" - I'd love a dedicated section for "active" speakers.
I keep on having to scrounge all other sections to find out if anyone did an active version one way or another.
I'd love to see a dedicated active speaker section to discuss stuff like powering them (SMPS? What type? LLC? Resonant / Quasi Resonant?), DSP's for crossovers (ADAU1701 good enough? Will the cheap Sure/Wondom boards do?), etc.
All this stuff seems to get a bit lost in the other topics.
A bit of DSP in the Class D amplifier forum, a bit in the Multiway speaker forum, a bit of SMPS discussion in the electronics forum, another bit in another build in the multiway forum..
Having a Full Range, a MultiWay, and a SubWoofer section - I do think that by now (in 2020) an "Active" section would be a nice addition.
*Edit*: Maybe it needs to be clarified as a "Non passive crossover / filter" section ;-)
I keep on having to scrounge all other sections to find out if anyone did an active version one way or another.
I'd love to see a dedicated active speaker section to discuss stuff like powering them (SMPS? What type? LLC? Resonant / Quasi Resonant?), DSP's for crossovers (ADAU1701 good enough? Will the cheap Sure/Wondom boards do?), etc.
All this stuff seems to get a bit lost in the other topics.
A bit of DSP in the Class D amplifier forum, a bit in the Multiway speaker forum, a bit of SMPS discussion in the electronics forum, another bit in another build in the multiway forum..
Having a Full Range, a MultiWay, and a SubWoofer section - I do think that by now (in 2020) an "Active" section would be a nice addition.
*Edit*: Maybe it needs to be clarified as a "Non passive crossover / filter" section ;-)
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Indeed so. I believe there are some multi-way systems that use a passive line level crossover to feed separate amps, with each amp connected directly to a drive unit. I'd call that an active design too, even though the word 'active' probably originates from the active or powered nature of the electronic crossover.
Only reason I raised the issue was because my thirty year old DIY active 3-way needs repair or replacement and technology has moved so fast in recent years, what with sophisticated DSP amps like the top quality Ncore-based Hypex Fusion plate amps, that it surprises me anyone chooses to build passives - unless for sentimental/nostalgic reasons. Although maybe building an active is too easy? I guess the trials and tribulations of designing a high-quality passive speaker suit those who relish more of a challenge. Each to their own.
"All this stuff seems to get a bit lost in the other topics.
A bit of DSP in the Class D amplifier forum, a bit in the Multiway speaker forum, a bit of SMPS discussion in the electronics forum, another bit in another build in the multiway forum.."
Agree. It does seem a bit fragmented.
Active is certainly easier, passive XOs are hard to get right. But sometimes a well done passive will give better results.
DSP is very powerful, but if you have an analog front end you are introducing an analog to digital conversion.
The nCore looks to be one of the very best Class D amps, but it is no panacea (i just had a quite negative review pass thru). I have not heard it, but we do have the earlier which is capable of really good bass (with the right seakers) but falls down up top. An amplifier needs to be considered as part of a system with the speakers and the connection between.
An active system has to make the same kind of attention to the speaker as a passive does.
For instance, there was great pressure on Nelson to come up with an all analog active XO for the LX-mini and i strongly expect that in the right system it smokes the miniDSP.
There are still huge compromises in any hifi system, the art comes in choosing the ones that best suit you. DSP and active relate to so much other stuff one cannot seperate it out of the forums they are already in.
For instance, i am eager to try a DSP XO (the beringher i have somewhere sucks (at least the analog sections), but am waiting for the inevitable arrival of 24/192.
dave
The problem with starting to partition a forum into finer and finer levels of classification is that you end up with too many levels of sub-forums and a lot of participants wont have the time to read each one. The strength of a site like diyAudio is the wealth of experiences of all the readers. You dilute this down when you start having too many sub-forums.
For DSP perhaps go look in "Digital Line Level" where it's explicitly listed?
Okay, so what would be in the "active full-range" section since their is no crossover (but possibly equalization)? Same question for a subwoofer (if there is no internal crossover)?
What's the difference between a 3-way that's tri-amped with external DSP and an "active speaker"? True there are construction differences, but I'd rather talk about that in the 3-way forum and not miss out on the feedback from others who have built interesting 3-way designs but aren't interested in active speaker issues specifically.
There is always going to be topical overlap, but in the end that's what the search button is for.
I'm not meaning to come across as snarky here but I'm trying to point out that the different elements in designing and building "active speakers" are easily (and in some ways better) handled within the framework of the existing forum structure.
-bill
For DSP perhaps go look in "Digital Line Level" where it's explicitly listed?
Okay, so what would be in the "active full-range" section since their is no crossover (but possibly equalization)? Same question for a subwoofer (if there is no internal crossover)?
What's the difference between a 3-way that's tri-amped with external DSP and an "active speaker"? True there are construction differences, but I'd rather talk about that in the 3-way forum and not miss out on the feedback from others who have built interesting 3-way designs but aren't interested in active speaker issues specifically.
There is always going to be topical overlap, but in the end that's what the search button is for.
I'm not meaning to come across as snarky here but I'm trying to point out that the different elements in designing and building "active speakers" are easily (and in some ways better) handled within the framework of the existing forum structure.
-bill
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A very good take on things Bill.
The built-in search unfortunately not that great, it will greatly improve when we move to new, much more current BBS, but for now using Google like this will dig deeper.
<search terms> site:diyaudio.com
dave
The built-in search unfortunately not that great, it will greatly improve when we move to new, much more current BBS, but for now using Google like this will dig deeper.
<search terms> site:diyaudio.com
dave
Why would these need specific categories though?
An "Active DSP speakers" subsection would be about active DSP speakers, whether you choose to put a low-pass filter on them for a subwoofer or not, whether you choose to click on a crossover filter in SigmaStudio or not.
We already have a subsection for passive full range speakers, passive multiway speakers, passive subwoofers..
Why not add a section for active DSP driven speakers?
It's really not going to make it all that more complicated, it's one more section - not a hundred more.
Point taken, and that's *your* opinion.
Personally I'd rather be able to learn from people who create 3-way speakers with active DSP, to see how *they* are doing it.
Currently I have to deep-dive into the forums to find anything related to what *I* would like to do.
Imagine it the other way - if the multiway forum was 95% active DSP speakers while you are trying to find information on passive crossovers / builds... wouldn't it be nice if there was a section for you?
Again, it's like saying "hey we got this forum for building speakers, if you're building a full range speaker it's just one crossover less, just keep reading until you find a thread about it, you know".
I understand your point but i don't share it. I think the differences between building active DSP based speakers and passive speakers with analog filters / crossovers are much bigger than for example the differences between a multiway and a full range speaker.
The difference between phase management, impedance, crossover possibilities, room eq inclusion, amplification possibilities (integration with class D) etc. are in my opinion big enough to warrant a separate section.
I'm flexible though so I can understand that other people might not agree with that.
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We had this same discussion almost 5 years ago: Time for new loudspeaker sub-forum(s)?
There is an "older generation" concept of audio that still thinks in terms of "HiFi gear" with sources, amplifiers and speakers. And there is a newer generation that only knows about internet streaming to active speakers with DSP. This forum has deep roots in the traditional concept of audio equipment, and there is always going to be resistance to changing to a new organizational paradigm. Look through that thread from 5 years back and you might get some ideas on how to suggest these changes once again.
There is an "older generation" concept of audio that still thinks in terms of "HiFi gear" with sources, amplifiers and speakers. And there is a newer generation that only knows about internet streaming to active speakers with DSP. This forum has deep roots in the traditional concept of audio equipment, and there is always going to be resistance to changing to a new organizational paradigm. Look through that thread from 5 years back and you might get some ideas on how to suggest these changes once again.
Are you saying it's just a matter of how to phrase these requests to make sure people don't offend "oldskoolers"..?
No--it's much more complicated than just phrasing. There are many substantial differences of opinion on whether diyAudio needs to evolve, and if so, in what way. All I was suggesting is that if you want to suggest changes, it might help to understand the opinions expressed in that older thread.
The conclusion I arrived at 5 years ago was that it was easier for me to address active speakers on a different web site--that's what the "reborn" Audiodevelopers.com was about. I know that's not an option for other people, but it provided me a creative outlet without being disruptive on this forum.
diyAudio will evolve,, but big changes won’t come until we are off this antique BBS. It is currently held together with bailing twine.
dave
dave
Great idea
As technology is evolving, system design is starting to replace the "standalone" boxes from the past. Look at B&O, Grimm Audio, Kii-3, Dutch & Dutch, as well as other manufacturers - they have EQ-XO-DAC-Amp-loudspeaker as one system.
The fun part is that we (DIY) can do this through available tools and technologies: REW, Re-Phase, MINI-dsp, Hypex, ICE and it is relatively cheap. I find it encouraging to be able to build such speakers myself also.
As technology is evolving, system design is starting to replace the "standalone" boxes from the past. Look at B&O, Grimm Audio, Kii-3, Dutch & Dutch, as well as other manufacturers - they have EQ-XO-DAC-Amp-loudspeaker as one system.
The fun part is that we (DIY) can do this through available tools and technologies: REW, Re-Phase, MINI-dsp, Hypex, ICE and it is relatively cheap. I find it encouraging to be able to build such speakers myself also.
Just thought I'd chip in and say that I cannot understand why there isn't room for an active speaker forum. Many folks are trying to build them and there isn't a good source of knowledge for it. There are many design challenges and compromises and it would be great to see how other people solved these (or more likely, made trade-offs 🙂 ).
There are pros and cons to actives so I certainly don't see the passive stuff going anywhere. It's just something that appeals to me since I am a computer programmer and also did so some electrical engineering at university - I didn't use these skills since then but at least I can read the data sheets.
There are pros and cons to actives so I certainly don't see the passive stuff going anywhere. It's just something that appeals to me since I am a computer programmer and also did so some electrical engineering at university - I didn't use these skills since then but at least I can read the data sheets.
Most of a crossover is actually an acoustic consideration. Anyway, I approach each kind the same way. Some of the finer details are different but it's the same goal and result.
Slightly off topic, but I must say I really love the old-skool look of the forum. The new forums have lots of stuff around but little text. I prefer to have lots of text and only necessary things around. That is the reason why I am here like 100x more often than on another audio related forums.
This post, that I wrote in that 5 year old thread, is still valid today:
Time for new loudspeaker sub-forum(s)?
Until the model for organization of this forum by predetermined topic is changed, this problem will persist.
So what's the difference between building say a 3 way speaker with internal crossover & building same speaker with line level crossover?
Somebody will build with DSP in pre-amp & 2 or 3 amps behind each speaker.
Next person will integrate DSP & amps into each speaker.
Still another person will use line level analogue crossovers.
It would seem a lottery as to which forum you placed the system.
Somebody will build with DSP in pre-amp & 2 or 3 amps behind each speaker.
Next person will integrate DSP & amps into each speaker.
Still another person will use line level analogue crossovers.
It would seem a lottery as to which forum you placed the system.
I understand what you mean. Perhaps simply a "hybrid" forum for speakers containing amplifiers, line-level crossovers etc., - anything that messes with the existing Amp/Source&Line/Loudspeaker division (as CharlieLaub rightly points out).
It could also be useful for discussing the trade-offs in overall system setup & interconnection, which is still relevant for traditional systems but doesn't necessarily have an obvious home.
A 3-way speaker with traditional crossover network is in the loudspeaker forum. The same speaker with line-level crossover would also need to contain an amp - does it go in the amplifier forum or the speaker forum?
It could also be useful for discussing the trade-offs in overall system setup & interconnection, which is still relevant for traditional systems but doesn't necessarily have an obvious home.
A 3-way speaker with traditional crossover network is in the loudspeaker forum. The same speaker with line-level crossover would also need to contain an amp - does it go in the amplifier forum or the speaker forum?