What you hear/perceive can be theoretically explained. Some have asked you about your DAC, settings, etc, but I think it is not going to be easy. If you understand the theory, you can examine your audio chain to see where things went wrong.
Digital attenuation uses available bits (hopefully unused ones) for this purpose. The more the attenuation, the more bits used. So you have to make sure there is enough bit in excess of the audio bits (the 16 bits Red Book) to be used for attenuation, so the resolution is not compromised. Then you have to make sure the noise of your chain is low.
In analog, resolution is Signal/Noise. In digital, resolution is in bit. But in digital attenuation, only the signal part that is attenuated. So you get the picture about the non-linear relationship between theoretical digital resolution versus actual analog resolution.
Of course there are other "reasons" for negative effects of digital attenuation, but the one above is the (most) objective one.
At the end of the day, it is about how good your ears is (I trust your ears in this case). I prefer to avoid digital attenuation, than calculating and measuring if the attenuation does kill or does not kill the resolution. But if it is about JRiver, may be you want to check if there is setting that was wrong.
You can't get noise or ripple down passively? Just assuming you'd prefer it that way with your tubed circuit.
Jay,
Don't underestimate the things our mind can do. Most people on this site have probably seen this effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
But as there are also new readers here, it might be fun to repost.
I can listen "trough" it quite easy because I know what's happening. But the first time I saw this I was susceptible to the effect too.
There's another from Ethan Winer and Poppy Crum that's fun to watch, but long.. :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
It touches on many of the subjects discussed here, among them expectation bias. You may not agree with all of it, but when starting out it is good to watch at least once. At 5:26 there's a nice demo of the power of our mind presented by Poppy Crum. Try it. Be honest about it, what do you hear.
Don't underestimate the things our mind can do. Most people on this site have probably seen this effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
But as there are also new readers here, it might be fun to repost.
I can listen "trough" it quite easy because I know what's happening. But the first time I saw this I was susceptible to the effect too.
There's another from Ethan Winer and Poppy Crum that's fun to watch, but long.. :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
It touches on many of the subjects discussed here, among them expectation bias. You may not agree with all of it, but when starting out it is good to watch at least once. At 5:26 there's a nice demo of the power of our mind presented by Poppy Crum. Try it. Be honest about it, what do you hear.
No Allen, i was joking. But it's a fact that i prefer shunt regulated psu with tube circuit, at least the last one Salas offer here in the psu thread.
In fact if i do an upgrade for the amplifier i'll go classD way. At least for medium and low end. And i'll have to stay with relatively high impedance passive attenuator (pad) and compromise a little on snr.
I wasn't aware of this one. I always use dbfs for reference talking about digital. I take on the correction about the way i understood the 0dbfs definition. Happyly enough for me this isn't realy modifying the way i use it.
My situation is unusual yes i admit.
If we asked about his set up this is because from other discussions we know Youknowyou use studio/home studio gear. This can be a source of problem to use with more mainstream software even whith dedicated studio software.
Maybe there is some configuration issues, maybe Youknowyou is more sensible about some signal degradations than others.
We are all differents about that, but i think with a little training and others pointing out the 'things' to hear we can all hear artefacts. This is not easy task in a forum.
The thing that i don't understand about Youknowyou problem is that i suppose he use DAW, and this is sure he use automation control, so digital volume control. Does he hear artefacts using them during mixing or as master fader in the DAW?
From my point of view digital volume control in Jriver is supposed to be the same as automation control in DAW so if problem occurs it can be a conflict in set up with the hardware or software issue.
For the quality of Jriver i don't know, never used this software or any of this kind.
This is the first time I see this. Unfortunately, the trick didn't work on me. I knew right away what was going on. Too bad, to me it was like "which image is connected with the sound?"
What do you mean? Which part of the presentation? I didn't know the exact or complete words but I knew exactly what was going on. (This is also my first time seeing this).
Remember when you said: I can listen "trough" it quite easy because I know what's happening. What have we learned from this?
Experiences make our brain smarter! And we learn from our experiences. It is the way we learn from experiences that is unique. One thing that I have learned from experience is: Don't make assumptions! And when you have to make an assumption be aware of it! (But I know most will not understand what I'm talking about).
Welcome to the real world difficulties of transferring headline DAC performance figures to the other end of the wire. 😉
Anybody with a home studio is likely to bump into similar issues; unusualness is mainly a measure of fewer folks doing pro audio production stuff than being music consumers.
If i used passive speaker and wasn't broke ( 🙂 ) i just go buy a Cranesong avocet and all this hassle would stop.
I would not call my living room a studio. It was at a time in the past but things changed when girlfriend came live with me. It could have stay the same as she is quite open minded about that (and the like music too) but it's just so inconvenient to live in a studio with a non technician ("no sweety, you can't locate your beer on the console... neither on the racks with the amplifier or the one with the effects... nor on the synth... or on the computer...well, go back to kitchen to drink your beer!" 🙂 ).
It's funny how you think that pro audio is not the way to go. I think the opposite: consumer is unusualness! 😉
Well playing backwards music you're not supposed to hear any words, that was the point. The one after that, with the missing "S". Did it register?
If you listen trough all of these experiments, I kind of feel sad for you. Because all reproduced music must be so bad and disappointing to listen to. We need to trick the brain to get to the enjoyment part. Stereo is one big trick as well.
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No but this gives some very strange effects which can be used as producer choice. One great example is in Lynch's "Twin Peaks": when in the 'Lodge' all actors talks use this to give the feeling of weirdness. To give the effect, they recorded dialogs the usual way, played them backward, asked actors to re-record what they heard this way and then using this material played it backward another time. What you hear in the soundtrack is the result of this. Very clever way to induce strange feelings into the image.
No but this gives some very strange effects which can be used as producer choice. One great example is in Lynch's "Twin Peaks": when in the 'Lodge' all actors talks use this to give the feeling of weirdness. To give the effect, they recorded dialogs the usual way, played them backward, asked actors to re-record what they heard this way and then using this material played it backward another time. What you hear in the soundtrack is the result of this. Very clever way to induce strange feelings into the image.
I didn't get the point of the "show" so I didn't want to try to "adjust" or "trick" my brain. But I knew because I have heard something similar in Youtube (song about Napoleon or something like that).
The one after that (the missing "S"), I also didn't understand the point so I stopped there...
So, was the point all reproduced music must be so bad and disappointing to listen to such that we need to trick our brain to get to the enjoyment part?? Then I think the show was irrelevant. I think you know that it is not the way we enjoy the music. I didn't enjoy the show and I didn't try to. I have never tried/pretended to enjoy listening to music... I think you know this because you talked about "long time enjoyment" and the like...
Interesting point of view. How would you define a record performed in a desert to capture a group of percussive instruments instaled in half a circle? Would you still try to record first reflections or something else? 😛
Hmmm... I don't know how many years I haven't listened to stereo sound at home... I always listen to music, just like right now, but only mono...
It's interesting how you think this is tricks. From my point of view this is more related to the fact that viewing use 90% of our attention to analyze our environment. In these hierarchy of sense ear is second place and not many percentage of our brain are allowed to it.
But another interesting thing to note is that it's easier to illusion view than ear. In fact it is very demanding for some audio tricks to be performed (the case of audio morphing is interesting as to my knowledge this is still nearly impossible to do it credible for our brain). One of the most interesting feature of our ear/brain is the 'coktail effect'! It still astonish me.
Sorry Inappropriate use of English idiom. I could also have said 'every tool in the box'. Point is that the brain will do everything it can to make sense of ALL the inputs it has.
I get your point Bill. It's me that is sorry, but explain myself in foreign language is always a barrier/problem.
I think what Jay is saying is that once you're used to some effects, discerning they are at work is easier. I agree about that and this is why i stated you sometimes need training/practice to ear some effects. That said i had some seconds of surprise watching the ba ba ba video! 🙂
I think what Jay is saying is that once you're used to some effects, discerning they are at work is easier. I agree about that and this is why i stated you sometimes need training/practice to ear some effects. That said i had some seconds of surprise watching the ba ba ba video! 🙂
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Well, with the "reflections" I actually meant my loudspeakers, if that wasn't completely obvious. The performance isn't there, right in front of me. But I do perceive it that way. That's one cool trick in my book. With a little effort it goes a long way. (OK, a lot of effort 😱)
So it's not how it's recorded that I am getting at. I have no control over that.
Sorry to hear that... or maybe I shouldn't be sorry if that's what you enjoy. To each his own.
I'm having way too much fun enjoying the trick called Stereo to even consider doing something like that. I really mean that.
That's why I posted it. Its easy to get past it, but it is surprising to most folks. Some things aren't even fun to learn.
Play a song on your stereo, record that song at the listening position, play back the recording you just made and listen to it at your listening position. If that doesn't make you painfully aware of your listening environment...
I did just that and had a hard time unlearning hearing the room again after that, which is the more natural way for us to listen.
I won't be repeating that test any time soon 😀.
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