Browsing through the Zalytron web page, I stumbled across a 6" midwoofer called Access 6A.
Does anybody have any experience with these? The frequency plot looked good, and some of the parameters were also interesting, in particular the extremely low moving mass of only 6,75 g!
Looking for some midranges with good transient response for 200-3000Hz duty for an active 3-way project.
They were on sale for 35$ which is almost suspiciously cheap!
Certainly a more tempting proposition than burning 100-150$ for some high-end units...
Does anybody have any experience with these? The frequency plot looked good, and some of the parameters were also interesting, in particular the extremely low moving mass of only 6,75 g!
Looking for some midranges with good transient response for 200-3000Hz duty for an active 3-way project.
They were on sale for 35$ which is almost suspiciously cheap!
Certainly a more tempting proposition than burning 100-150$ for some high-end units...
Waddayaknow, they're here allready! 
Great service from Zalytron!
And as promised, pictures taken.
The drivers look very good in deed, not oozing exotica or exuberant perfectionism, but nothing to put the finger down on really.
Magnets are big and beefy, and the suspension seems highly compliant, so hopefully these drivers will meet my expectations of transient response nirvana!
The diaphragm and suspension looks and feels almost delicate ,so this is definitively no cheapo far eastern drivers (no offense intended to you guys from that corner of the world!!) with diaphragms stamped from heavy gauge shipping cardboard and wrung bicycle tires for suspension!
The coating is not of the sticky kind, which means I wont get furry midranges if I forget to vacuum clean.
And the label says "Made in France"...
In short, build wise, they look like very good value for money..
In a minute I'm gonna hook them up and see if they actually make any sound as well!
Great service from Zalytron!
And as promised, pictures taken.
The drivers look very good in deed, not oozing exotica or exuberant perfectionism, but nothing to put the finger down on really.
Magnets are big and beefy, and the suspension seems highly compliant, so hopefully these drivers will meet my expectations of transient response nirvana!
The diaphragm and suspension looks and feels almost delicate ,so this is definitively no cheapo far eastern drivers (no offense intended to you guys from that corner of the world!!) with diaphragms stamped from heavy gauge shipping cardboard and wrung bicycle tires for suspension!
The coating is not of the sticky kind, which means I wont get furry midranges if I forget to vacuum clean.
And the label says "Made in France"...
In short, build wise, they look like very good value for money..
In a minute I'm gonna hook them up and see if they actually make any sound as well!
Attachments
Yeah.. the one pic per post thing is a bit annoying sometimes. Thanks for posting those pics tho! Nice description too. Helps a lot.
Any idea about size of the voice coil? What about xmax? Could be one of those mids with 1mm or less, although I doubt it.. but they don't give a spec, if I remember correctly. I have to say, I don't think they appear to be quite what I had expected. Not really in a bad way. Just different. Although I wasn't really expecting foam. Not always really a bad thing though. Do the cones not seem as light as the specs from Zalytron indicate? You said that the suspension seems highly compliant, but then you said something about it having bicycle tires for suspension. Is it hard or soft? Does the cone move easily? Strangely, that foam actually looks kinda heavy. The largish motors aren't surprising I guess, given the low Qts of these drivers. Very interesting indeed..
Oh, and post back here and let me know what you do with them and how it works out! Of course, they might not be so cheap by then.. might not even be available by the time I'm ready to order. Or, maybe I should just go for it? Ah well, we'll see..
Thanks.
Any idea about size of the voice coil? What about xmax? Could be one of those mids with 1mm or less, although I doubt it.. but they don't give a spec, if I remember correctly. I have to say, I don't think they appear to be quite what I had expected. Not really in a bad way. Just different. Although I wasn't really expecting foam. Not always really a bad thing though. Do the cones not seem as light as the specs from Zalytron indicate? You said that the suspension seems highly compliant, but then you said something about it having bicycle tires for suspension. Is it hard or soft? Does the cone move easily? Strangely, that foam actually looks kinda heavy. The largish motors aren't surprising I guess, given the low Qts of these drivers. Very interesting indeed..
Oh, and post back here and let me know what you do with them and how it works out! Of course, they might not be so cheap by then.. might not even be available by the time I'm ready to order. Or, maybe I should just go for it? Ah well, we'll see..
Thanks.
Seems to be top notch for the price...foam surround and high compliance: sound great!Elbert said:Waddayaknow, they're here allready!
Great service from Zalytron!
And as promised, pictures taken.
The drivers look very good in deed, not oozing exotica or exuberant perfectionism, but nothing to put the finger down on really.
Magnets are big and beefy, and the suspension seems highly compliant, so hopefully these drivers will meet my expectations of transient response nirvana!
The diaphragm and suspension looks and feels almost delicate ,so this is definitively no cheapo far eastern drivers (no offense intended to you guys from that corner of the world!!) with diaphragms stamped from heavy gauge shipping cardboard and wrung bicycle tires for suspension!
The coating is not of the sticky kind, which means I wont get furry midranges if I forget to vacuum clean.
And the label says "Made in France"...
In short, build wise, they look like very good value for money..
In a minute I'm gonna hook them up and see if they actually make any sound as well!
If the surround appears yet untreated I would apply some anti-UV treatement.
Well, hope the description is helpfull, must say i find it strange that Zalytron doesn't have more info an pic's of these drivers on their web-page, that would certainly draw better attention to what I find to be a most saleable product!
The surround is really light and delicate, wrung bicycle tires is exactly what it isn't! Sorry if I phrased my self a bit clumsily there...
As I said, very light and compliant surround and the diaphragm is probably as light as the 6 and something grams quoted. The diaphragm moves very easily as well. Combined with the beefy magnet, this should give interesting results! from the data posted on Zalytron, the coul height is 12,4mm and the gap is 6mm high, so that shoud give a linear Xmax of about +/-3 mm which I think should be quite ok for a midrange of this size and frequency range.
I would estimate the VC diameter to be 22-26mm 'ish in diameter.
The only issue i have is the basket, it gives a clear "ding" when you tapp it, not as dead as more robust baskets made from aluminium or magnesium. But this should be a minor thing to fix, just put some bitumene strips on.
Not quite sure what to think about foam surrounds...
Sure, the foam surrounds on the old SEAS 13" woofers I'm gonna use for the project were totally disintegrated and therefore replaced with new ones...
But ar new foam-surrounds as bad as the old ones? Should think that it was now common to ad some sort of UV inhibitor to the formulation?
But if not, some sort of UV proofing sounds like a good idea, but what to use??
Haven't exactly got the boxes ready and waiting for these drivers, it s a fairly long term project..
right now I'm gonna have to decide on the enclosure philosophy..
As I understand, a closed box (about 10L) will give the best transient response, whilst a vented enclosure (about 15 L) will reduce cone excursion and thereby distortion... hmmm...
suggestions are welcome!
By the way, they do sound nice....
The surround is really light and delicate, wrung bicycle tires is exactly what it isn't!
Sorry if I phrased my self a bit clumsily there...As I said, very light and compliant surround and the diaphragm is probably as light as the 6 and something grams quoted. The diaphragm moves very easily as well. Combined with the beefy magnet, this should give interesting results! from the data posted on Zalytron, the coul height is 12,4mm and the gap is 6mm high, so that shoud give a linear Xmax of about +/-3 mm which I think should be quite ok for a midrange of this size and frequency range.
I would estimate the VC diameter to be 22-26mm 'ish in diameter.
The only issue i have is the basket, it gives a clear "ding" when you tapp it, not as dead as more robust baskets made from aluminium or magnesium. But this should be a minor thing to fix, just put some bitumene strips on.
Not quite sure what to think about foam surrounds...
Sure, the foam surrounds on the old SEAS 13" woofers I'm gonna use for the project were totally disintegrated and therefore replaced with new ones...
But ar new foam-surrounds as bad as the old ones? Should think that it was now common to ad some sort of UV inhibitor to the formulation?
But if not, some sort of UV proofing sounds like a good idea, but what to use??
Haven't exactly got the boxes ready and waiting for these drivers, it s a fairly long term project..
right now I'm gonna have to decide on the enclosure philosophy..
As I understand, a closed box (about 10L) will give the best transient response, whilst a vented enclosure (about 15 L) will reduce cone excursion and thereby distortion... hmmm...
suggestions are welcome!
By the way, they do sound nice....
Attachments
Formulation of new foam surround should handle time better than old ones; but why not mail to Troels Gravesen for advices in this matter, he treated his new HES design: quote from his site: "Modern foam surrounds come with built-in UV resistance and with this driver we have further added UV protection from applying a thin black polymer coating."Elbert said:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008.htm
Using T/S parameters to calculate the middriver load is relatively unappropriated because very low energy remains at fs if you cut the driver at 200Hz. Therefore you shouldn't reach its x-max IMO.
Ah, a good idea to contact Mr. Gravesen!
but then again, I'm not entirely sure if it is UV exposure alone that breaks down foam surrounds... could be other ting like general long term environmental exposure and sheer "fatigue" caused by milions of cycles..?
But then again, the midranges in the boxes from which I'm getting my woofers (they had a completely disintegrated surround) has a foam surround, but WITH some sort of coating.. and they were ok. Allthough i suspect the foam as such had deteriorated, it seems like the polymer or elastomeric coating has at least kept things sticking together!
I agree with you regarding calculating with TS parameters. I pretty much made the same assumption my self, but in my loudspeaker desing cookbook (by Vance Dickanson), I read that if the midrange could be crossed over as high as two octaves above Fs, a vented or transmission line enclosure was recommended, and that a closed box was more appropriate for a driver where only one octave separated the lower cut-off from the Fs.
Hmmm.. guess i will have to investigate a bit here...
But nevertheless, your point about cone excursion not becoming an issue anyway at 200 Hz (i intend to use 24 dB/ oct electronic filtering as well) seems very valid!
Just thinking this is now becomming an Norwegian-French design with SEAS woofer and tweeter and a Focal midrange... per haps a SECAL?
but then again, I'm not entirely sure if it is UV exposure alone that breaks down foam surrounds... could be other ting like general long term environmental exposure and sheer "fatigue" caused by milions of cycles..?
But then again, the midranges in the boxes from which I'm getting my woofers (they had a completely disintegrated surround) has a foam surround, but WITH some sort of coating.. and they were ok. Allthough i suspect the foam as such had deteriorated, it seems like the polymer or elastomeric coating has at least kept things sticking together!
I agree with you regarding calculating with TS parameters. I pretty much made the same assumption my self, but in my loudspeaker desing cookbook (by Vance Dickanson), I read that if the midrange could be crossed over as high as two octaves above Fs, a vented or transmission line enclosure was recommended, and that a closed box was more appropriate for a driver where only one octave separated the lower cut-off from the Fs.
Hmmm.. guess i will have to investigate a bit here...
But nevertheless, your point about cone excursion not becoming an issue anyway at 200 Hz (i intend to use 24 dB/ oct electronic filtering as well) seems very valid!
Just thinking this is now becomming an Norwegian-French design with SEAS woofer and tweeter and a Focal midrange... per haps a SECAL?
I wouldn't worry about the type of loading because with your 24db/oct filtering you will be more than 50db down at fs!Elbert said:
I agree with you regarding calculating with TS parameters. I pretty much made the same assumption my self, but in my loudspeaker desing cookbook (by Vance Dickanson), I read that if the midrange could be crossed over as high as two octaves above Fs, a vented or transmission line enclosure was recommended, and that a closed box was more appropriate for a driver where only one octave separated the lower cut-off from the Fs.
Hmmm.. guess i will have to investigate a bit here...
But nevertheless, your point about cone excursion not becoming an issue anyway at 200 Hz (i intend to use 24 dB/ oct electronic filtering as well) seems very valid!
Just thinking this is now becomming an Norwegian-French design with SEAS woofer and tweeter and a Focal midrange... per haps a SECAL?
"SECAL" prononciation is close to "CY-CLE" (frequencies)
Well, that's a clear answer!
Building an enclosure that discourages standing waves should be possible..
In one thread Mr Krutke stated that for a midrange not reproducing frequencies near the Fs, a sealed enclosure was just fine, and that the larger enclosure volumes with plenty of stuffing tended to give the best result.
So perhaps a 10 L closed box with plenty of stuffing?
and in addition, perhaps lining the enclosure with this stuff:
http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell/armacell.nsf/ansHTMLSeitenLookUp/UK_Frame?OpenDocument
Came across some bits of a black foam material on a construction site once, both bits of sheet and tubing. Turned out they used the stuff to insulate water pipes and other water and ventilation stuff. The material seemed very heavy and mushy and had an extremely "dead" feel to it.. As you can see from the link I posted, a special variant for acoustic absorption is available. Since this is a product used in construction and contracting, it should be priced thereafter.
Also considering to use this to cover the fronts of my speakers to reduce early reflections and absorption.
Building an enclosure that discourages standing waves should be possible..
In one thread Mr Krutke stated that for a midrange not reproducing frequencies near the Fs, a sealed enclosure was just fine, and that the larger enclosure volumes with plenty of stuffing tended to give the best result.
So perhaps a 10 L closed box with plenty of stuffing?
and in addition, perhaps lining the enclosure with this stuff:
http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell/armacell.nsf/ansHTMLSeitenLookUp/UK_Frame?OpenDocument
Came across some bits of a black foam material on a construction site once, both bits of sheet and tubing. Turned out they used the stuff to insulate water pipes and other water and ventilation stuff. The material seemed very heavy and mushy and had an extremely "dead" feel to it.. As you can see from the link I posted, a special variant for acoustic absorption is available. Since this is a product used in construction and contracting, it should be priced thereafter.
Also considering to use this to cover the fronts of my speakers to reduce early reflections and absorption.
The more your inner dimensions increase, the more the standing waves can appear at lower frequencies.
For me almost any dampening material is efficient enough depending on its density and amount. Trials are the best way to get a well balanced speaker even if it's less important for a middriver than a woofer. A good link (in german):
http://www.visaton.de/de/forum/pc_bedaempfung.html
http://www.visaton.de/de/forum/pc2_bedaempfung.html
You could also try bull pack. At least one well regarded french commercial speaker designer (Christian YVON_Apertura) seems to use such stuff. Personaly never tested this.
For me almost any dampening material is efficient enough depending on its density and amount. Trials are the best way to get a well balanced speaker even if it's less important for a middriver than a woofer. A good link (in german):
http://www.visaton.de/de/forum/pc_bedaempfung.html
http://www.visaton.de/de/forum/pc2_bedaempfung.html
You could also try bull pack. At least one well regarded french commercial speaker designer (Christian YVON_Apertura) seems to use such stuff. Personaly never tested this.
Well, standing waves is a problem no matter what when it comes to midrange enclosures due to the short wavelength..
Of course reducing the size of the enclosure rises the limit for the lowest standing wave, but one can not hope to raise the lowest standing waves above the upper midrange frequency limit as this would make the enclosure to small to even fit the driver!
I guess the best way out is to design an enclosure with few parallel surfaces, thereby distributing the standing waves over a broad spectrum, and adding enough damping material so as to reduce the magnitude of these standing waves below any significance.
Interesting links by the way, to bad its 15 years since I had German in school (and not very good at it...), but I'll give it a try!
Of course reducing the size of the enclosure rises the limit for the lowest standing wave, but one can not hope to raise the lowest standing waves above the upper midrange frequency limit as this would make the enclosure to small to even fit the driver!
I guess the best way out is to design an enclosure with few parallel surfaces, thereby distributing the standing waves over a broad spectrum, and adding enough damping material so as to reduce the magnitude of these standing waves below any significance.
Interesting links by the way, to bad its 15 years since I had German in school (and not very good at it...), but I'll give it a try!
Right. I suggested relatively small inner dimensions because the density and amount of damping material is less and less necessary as frequencies increase.Elbert said:Well, standing waves is a problem no matter what when it comes to midrange enclosures due to the short wavelength..
Of course reducing the size of the enclosure rises the limit for the lowest standing wave, but one can not hope to raise the lowest standing waves above the upper midrange frequency limit as this would make the enclosure to small to even fit the driver!
I guess the best way out is to design an enclosure with few parallel surfaces, thereby distributing the standing waves over a broad spectrum, and adding enough damping material so as to reduce the magnitude of these standing waves below any significance.
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