This is actually a very, very good thing to do, as it limits excessive excursion and power compression of small drivers which cannot reproduce these low frequencies anyway, and which push the driver to unnecessarily high excursion causing higher levels of (non-linear) distortion than when they are filtered out. It's somewhat like the old 'rumble filter'!
Do you suggest an 18 hz note canot be reproduced into a room which doesn't have at least a dimension of the said wavelength?
I can hear 18Hz note in my headphones. Some ****** Superlux. They are very very close to my ears. Try yourself:
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Exactly. If this was true then with headphones our ear canal would not allow higher freq than what,...4/5khz to be heard?
There might be issue to reproduce 18hz in a small room that is sure, but dimension of said room isn't part of this.
There might be issue to reproduce 18hz in a small room that is sure, but dimension of said room isn't part of this.
hi which one ? the rollerball one The one and the only i am sick for this marvel
i love everything of Bach Even his flowers
thank you very much I have never understood this issue Of course this changes prospective completely
i wonder if there is a formula linking Hz and wavelength Lets say that i am looking to reach 50Hz down and stop I have to accept compromises
the room is maybe the most dramatic one
but i am changing my approach I am not looking for high SPLs but more for a flat response from 50 to 15k Thats all
i did the same for years Then i listen a pair of JBL L166 with a big and powerful 12" A completely different experience that i cannot even explain
from the small speakers the sound was not realistic Like using a low cut filter On some full range instruments the impact is devastating
Yes this is the norm i was just thinking to use the midrange more like a full range in the low without filter and using just a little coil for the cross to the TW
Someone uses the midrange without xover Like Egglestonworks Their products are judged very good sounding
anothe case Epos
thank you very much Problem is that small woofer have physical limitations Usually they sound better when not stressed
I am looking for a 10" woofer at least For now
I hope you never understood the issue because there is none! See previous answers, this is a misconception to believe the room define the lowest frequency that can be generated ( listen to the 18hz tone with headphone: the room is your ear canal which is 2/3cm length and you can clearly hear the freq if your headphones can reproduce the freq).
Sound can be generated as long as there is a medium to transmit the vibration, whatever the frequency to be reproduced.
formula linking hz with wavelength:
Speed of sound: 343m/second.
Frequency= number of oscillation/second.
wavelength of 1000hz: 343m/1000= 34,3cm.
Wavelength of 20hz: 343/20= 17,15m
Nothing fancy, basic math. 😉
Yes room is an issue: to quickly summarize a room is a two faceted beast with a border known as 'Schroeder frequency' which define the two facets:
Below Schroeder frequency you enter modal behaviour of room. In this facet your room define 99% what you hear. Issue can be treated by acoustic treatments but wavelength being large, tools to manage them are too ( bass traps and other means). This make them not really suited to domestic rooms ( mostly).
Above Schroeder frequency room behave as reflector/diffractor. There your loudspeaker's directivity will define mostly what you'll hear and can be assisted by passive acoustic treatment to manage early reflections -iow help to manage room behaviour/mitigate the issues faced easily.
In lows so called mode are an issue an ARE related to room dimension but they don't define a limit of reproduction, only issues with some ( relatively narrow) frequency range.
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No, worded it badly. It just will be very hard to make it sound good. I do have a pipe organ at home, have been playing organ for decades, stopped during the pandemic. It was build for a church. The 16' never sounded good at home because of the room being too small.
But you answered while I was typing.
Hi ! thanks a lot this closes the issue Actually i have seen photo of Japanese audio lovers with huge speakers in tiny rooms
anyway as i said above i would like to get a flat 50Hz in my room No lower than that I guess that a 10" of good quality could provide that level of bass
thank you very much indeed for your kind explanation but it is too difficult for me to understand
In the end the idea is to place a sat above a bass box and nothing more
i am still undecided about which portion of the audio range send to one or the other I have seen different solutions used
still wondering There must be an optimal cross frequency
This is interesting. I guess in that small a space there is not enough room for these lower frequencies to even get modal, let alone to perhaps produce a sense of reverberation.. If this is the case it could be valid for production as opposed to re-production where the effect is on the recording.
This is my favorite version
J. S. Bach - Toccata & Fugue in D Minor - Michael Murray
The Organs of Los Angeles First Congregational Church, 1983 (Telarc)
I'm not an expert, but I believe it can damage a woofer of inadequate diameter/excursion if played without due care.
Edit to add "/excursion".
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Hello ! just plain amazing moving exceptional
this was exactly my point Small speakers are just limited by their nature
when I hear about exceptional bass for the size I get a little angry because that bass can't be exceptional It is misleading
the fact is that for various reasons people who don't have a real passion for music prefer small, cute, non-demanding boxes
But most of times they don't know what they're missing The sound from a small monitor cannot be really realistic
I've also destroyed small woofers by turning the volume up too high
Now my main goal is to understand how to select cone drivers
Tweeters if cut high enough aren't a real problem
Hi Gino!
Glad you liked it, also for me it is as you describe.
Yes.
I've never heard such a majestic organ live, but I imagine that everything around vibrates, from the walls to the furniture to the bodies of the people themselves in that space.
Just like when you hear its reproduction in a "suitable" system/room/power where combined with bass extension is downright shocking.
The ability of any woofer to handle high power/excursions is a hard test though.
You can maximum your bass even with some simple placement trials within the room. If you see my main 4-way speaker position in the below video, I get some great gains in this position.
When I try some small 2-way speakers(for eg. cheap sb13pfcr or hivi m5n) in the same position and just them playing, ppl doubt whether I have subwoofer on and don't believe when I say no. And funny enough even my receivers detects this small 2way as a full range speaker and sets the speaker as large.
Having said that, I would always use a multi-subs for faithful low frequency reproduction and high pass the small 2-ways.
When I try some small 2-way speakers(for eg. cheap sb13pfcr or hivi m5n) in the same position and just them playing, ppl doubt whether I have subwoofer on and don't believe when I say no. And funny enough even my receivers detects this small 2way as a full range speaker and sets the speaker as large.
Having said that, I would always use a multi-subs for faithful low frequency reproduction and high pass the small 2-ways.
Yes. Pictures doesn't mean it's 'good' though.
The big studio monitor's JBL you often see pictured in tiny japanese's room often suffers from one issue by their ( acoustical) design: they need some distance (some 2 to 3 meters) for their many ways to sum up coherently and give the intended rendering. In fact it's not an issue but a given trait of their initial planed use as main monitors in control rooms.
In this the japanese afficionados doesn't use them at their best or full potential.
That said the membranne area, high efficiency and directivity management those beast display will still be present even if not at their best regarding coherency in small room, and just for this points some people are ok to make compromise as it give an impressive rendering anyway.
Even a 6,5" can give flat inroom 50hz.
Most nearfield studio monitors are designed with exactly this low freq limit in mind.
Even the biggest one often do not go well below 40hz as compromise is lowest octave need special treatment anyway ( in room location of sub) so better have low distortion and higher level capability.
Anyway as already stated it's mainly your room and loudspeaker location in it which will define the final outcome.
Things you don't have an idea about always seems difficult no? The fact is it's easy to learn things to fullfill lack of knowledge. 😉
A sattelite over a bass box might work wonderful... or not. As it depend of where you'll locate them in room ( remember, your room is responsible for outcome in bass).
The real issue is what is good for low end is rarely good for the others part of the spectrum. And the inverse is true too.
Given you are not against a 2 box solution then it's a step in the good direction imho. About a silver bullet or magical xover freq or answer, just forget about this it is fantasy.
Reality is each case is special and this is what make the force of diy: being able to cuwtomise things to your need, plan, gear, room,...
Maybe a first step would be to understand a bit of acoustic to really get what we all face rather than shooting in the dark, invest money in gear and being frustrated in the end, leading to more money spent to change gear ( it must be it! This is it!) Which will lead to frustration and the loop never end ( typical audiophilia):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_acoustics
https://www.monacor.com/magazine/ro... simple: sound,modes or room resonances occur.
https://amcoustics.com/articles/roommodes
https://www.ekustik.eu/tips-and-tricks-blog/basics-of-room-acoustics
Yes i see your point I had some IQ tests in the past The ability at Math was scarce This is a very telling sign
i can understand just simple concepts when a school the teacher explained the theory i was in crisis I could only understand something with exercises
i got a degree just copying from books during examinations
i come to the two boxes solution starting from cabinet requirements for bass and high frequencies that are different
woofers need a stiff cabinet mids and tws need a heavy cabinet
the optimum materials could be stainless steel for woofer cabinet and lead for satellites
this is sad because this point is by my biggest nightmare
There is a studio monitors brand called PSI Audio The TOTL speaker is a 3 ways with a cone midrange Their 2nd best speaker is a 3 ways with a dome mid
I asked if they deem the solution with a cone mid superior considering that they use one on their TOTL speaker
I did not get any answer I hope that they didn't take it personally My question was and still is sincere
I think i will go with a cone mid because good dome mids are very expensive
you are completely right But in general when they design a speaker they do not know in which room it will land
i guess they are tring to make one quite universal
a friend of mine tells me that i tend to make things more complex than what they are
His system is nothing more than one center channel speaker placed vertically above a cabinet with a woofer with the addition of an external passive crossover One per L and one per R channel Identical
i have to say that it sounds pretty decent