I have a pair of Abbys with somewhat mangled whizzer cones (friend of my wife's daugher couldn't resist) - they still sound ok but I'm thinking about replacing the FE166E's... then I got to thinking about upgrading them to Super Abby's (FF165K's plus a rear firing super tweeter). I'm not sure I want to initially 'commit' to cuttign a hole in the back of my Abbys so:
1) For those of you that have heard both, are the Super Abby's that much better than the Abby's? Worth attempting a upgrade?
2) Any suggestions/tips on how to approach a 'temporary' rear firing tweeter setup to see if I like (before cutting)? Also I know the FT96H is used in the Super Abby's, but any suggestions for other units (preferrably a bit cheaper)? Finally what is the recommended crossover capacitor for this setup?
Many thanks in advance,
Brad
1) For those of you that have heard both, are the Super Abby's that much better than the Abby's? Worth attempting a upgrade?
2) Any suggestions/tips on how to approach a 'temporary' rear firing tweeter setup to see if I like (before cutting)? Also I know the FT96H is used in the Super Abby's, but any suggestions for other units (preferrably a bit cheaper)? Finally what is the recommended crossover capacitor for this setup?
Many thanks in advance,
Brad
Fostex has top mount horn tweets that you can just set on top of the cabinet They are expensive and have outrageous sensitivity, so padding would be required.
I have given a head's up to a friend who has had FE166, FF165, and FF165KeN in his Abbys. Hopefully he will chime in.
dave
dave
my guess is that since the fostex tweeter doesn't need the internal volume of the cabinet all you need to do is find a way to mount it outside of the rear wall to get a idea of what it'll do.
i'd think a small box to house the tweeter attached by two wood screws should do. or you could secure it to a tripod to hold it in place behind the speaker, then no alterations are needed to the abby's. if you attach hook up wire with clips instead of solder and put small nylon or rubber washers on the screws so as not to scratch the flange holes they'll still be in new condition to send them back to one of the retailers with decent return policies if you don't like them.
iirc, the different drivers were intended for near field placement in small rooms vs placement in larger rooms, not that one was better than the other. my local hifi shop community audio had a pair in the window, don't remember which version and i haven't gotten around to stopping in for a listen. he has a great auditioning room behind the store front but i feel odd hanging around asking to hear this and that because i'm a diy guy and not likely to purchase anything.
only real drive upgrade i can think of would be the out of production limited edition fe166es-r if you can find a pair.
i'd think a small box to house the tweeter attached by two wood screws should do. or you could secure it to a tripod to hold it in place behind the speaker, then no alterations are needed to the abby's. if you attach hook up wire with clips instead of solder and put small nylon or rubber washers on the screws so as not to scratch the flange holes they'll still be in new condition to send them back to one of the retailers with decent return policies if you don't like them.
iirc, the different drivers were intended for near field placement in small rooms vs placement in larger rooms, not that one was better than the other. my local hifi shop community audio had a pair in the window, don't remember which version and i haven't gotten around to stopping in for a listen. he has a great auditioning room behind the store front but i feel odd hanging around asking to hear this and that because i'm a diy guy and not likely to purchase anything.
only real drive upgrade i can think of would be the out of production limited edition fe166es-r if you can find a pair.
Not really, I remember Terry himself advised not trying the ES-R in the Abby.
There were originally two versions of the Abby; the regular, with the FE166E, and the Nearfield, with the FF165K. The latter has less linear displacement (although it doesn't actually sound like it in practice), a somewhat lower Fo, & no whizzer. Dispersion is better than the 166, & it doesn't get up quite as high, making it a smoother sounding device generally, so better suited to smaller spaces. That ended up as the starting point for the Super Abby, with the additional rearward-firing tweeter to make up for the 165 not getting up quite as high as the stock 166. From that point, I think the basic Nearfield model (sans supertweeter) faded away, leaving the stock Abby with the 166 & Super Abby in place. Of course, Terry was increasingly ill, so the Cain & Cain range never ended up being perfectly cohesive.
There were originally two versions of the Abby; the regular, with the FE166E, and the Nearfield, with the FF165K. The latter has less linear displacement (although it doesn't actually sound like it in practice), a somewhat lower Fo, & no whizzer. Dispersion is better than the 166, & it doesn't get up quite as high, making it a smoother sounding device generally, so better suited to smaller spaces. That ended up as the starting point for the Super Abby, with the additional rearward-firing tweeter to make up for the 165 not getting up quite as high as the stock 166. From that point, I think the basic Nearfield model (sans supertweeter) faded away, leaving the stock Abby with the 166 & Super Abby in place. Of course, Terry was increasingly ill, so the Cain & Cain range never ended up being perfectly cohesive.
i could be mistaken but i definitely remember a speaker/166es-r option on the c&c website around the time before and or after madisound got the drivers, however now that you mention this it could've been a option or special order version of the double mouthed horn/fe108ez.
As mp9 said, there is no reason you'd have to cut a hole for the supertweeter. Even a shelf would only require a pair of screw holes that would be practically invisible. If you buy the FT96, I'd make is secure even if it is temporary! If the FR driver cutout is the same size, you may as well try it.
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
Thanks for the advice guys - there are two reasons I'm thinking of replacing my current FE166E with the FF165K
1) I notice the FE166E 'shoutyness' that some people refer to. It's not bad and only on certain tracks, but it is there and I'd like to get rid of it. I'm wondering if it has to do with the whizzer cone - which is currently intact but somewhat mangled looking.
2) To be completely honest, the FF165K is better if you have curious kids coming over to your house. My two daughters have complete respect for my audio gear, but other kids (and some parents for that matter) don't really understand the delicacy of certain things 😉
Maybe I'll just try 'rolling' with the FF165K, see if the high end is enough for my room, and then add the tweeter later if I think it needs it. Only problem with trying this stuff is these drivers take so long to break in!
1) I notice the FE166E 'shoutyness' that some people refer to. It's not bad and only on certain tracks, but it is there and I'd like to get rid of it. I'm wondering if it has to do with the whizzer cone - which is currently intact but somewhat mangled looking.
2) To be completely honest, the FF165K is better if you have curious kids coming over to your house. My two daughters have complete respect for my audio gear, but other kids (and some parents for that matter) don't really understand the delicacy of certain things 😉
Maybe I'll just try 'rolling' with the FF165K, see if the high end is enough for my room, and then add the tweeter later if I think it needs it. Only problem with trying this stuff is these drivers take so long to break in!
Something else to be careful with is that the rear mounted T-nuts Terry used on the supra-baffles can come loose, and be rather a pain to deal with.
The same chap that Dave mentioned a few posts ago (Frank) had owned a pair of Abbys and tried both drivers. I managed to get a few sessions of listening, with IIRC never more power than Bottlehead Paramours or Vaughn Audio Carina - personally, I favored the FF165K, particularly with the Carina in Ultra-linear mode.
If it were me, the first thing I'd do is to swap out the T-Nuts for externally threaded insert fittings - one loose T-nut can spoil your fun for sure.
The same chap that Dave mentioned a few posts ago (Frank) had owned a pair of Abbys and tried both drivers. I managed to get a few sessions of listening, with IIRC never more power than Bottlehead Paramours or Vaughn Audio Carina - personally, I favored the FF165K, particularly with the Carina in Ultra-linear mode.
If it were me, the first thing I'd do is to swap out the T-Nuts for externally threaded insert fittings - one loose T-nut can spoil your fun for sure.
Bloody hell, I'm amazed Terry would have allowed T-nuts to be used for the suprabaffle. For a bloke who really was a heck of a cabinet maker, that seems a bit of a fudge.
The aluminum dustcap on the FF165 is very delicate. Fragility vrs FE166 is probably six of one, half dozen of another.
dave
I just want to confirm Planet 10's comments on the fragility of the aluminium dustcaps on the FF165's. They also seem to be a magnet for small children who cannot resist prodding them. Mine are in a dreadful state as a result of just a few visiting children.
David Whistance
David Whistance
Afraid so. I don't have any children, so my old pair survived intact, but the centre-cap is not what you'd call heavy-duty.
Scott, let me clarify - the T-nuts in Frank's speakers were for the driver mounting machine screws. The Suprabaffle itself was very structurally integrated into the enclosure case - I never bothered to investigate whether there were any mechanical fasteners, but wouldn't be surprised if they were "just" glued in place.
Hey guys,
Thanks for the advice - I'll definitely be extra careful removing the driver (I might suspend the speaker face down to remove the driver - if I have a loose T-nut it at least won't fall out).
I think I'm going to try the nearfield driver, even though my listening distance is roughly 8 feet or so. I'll see how that sounds, and then add a supertweeter if I think it needs it.
I guess I'll just have to accept the risk of probing fingers with speakers like these - but they're so nice looking I just can't hide them away in my bedroom. Hopefully dust caps will be somewhat less inviting than the big sprouting whizzer cones 😉
Thanks for the advice - I'll definitely be extra careful removing the driver (I might suspend the speaker face down to remove the driver - if I have a loose T-nut it at least won't fall out).
I think I'm going to try the nearfield driver, even though my listening distance is roughly 8 feet or so. I'll see how that sounds, and then add a supertweeter if I think it needs it.
I guess I'll just have to accept the risk of probing fingers with speakers like these - but they're so nice looking I just can't hide them away in my bedroom. Hopefully dust caps will be somewhat less inviting than the big sprouting whizzer cones 😉
The 165k does not sound shouty at all to me. Having not compared directly to the 167e but the 168s i think the 165k is smoother thru the mids (with the 168s having a touch of splash but not a lot - in some ways the 165k is better, in others the 168s). Overall, in my small room, the 165k won the day and i do think this has to do with it not having a wizzer. IMO, and this is purely subjective, putting drivers with wizzers too close to reflective walls could result in those wizzer frequencies being reflected into the room and exagerated bc they disperse sound in a wider pattern. If that makes sense to anyone. LOL... enjoy the 165k, it has a more 'liquid' sound than any of the Fostex i have heard. I use a rear firing tweeter with a 1khz cap. That fills in any missing highs.
Godzilla
Godzilla
Actually have been doing some good reading on various threads - I'm starting to consider the following strategy:
1) Replace FE166Es with 165K's
2) Add a 'cheapo' CTS KSN-1005 peizo with LF roll off around 10khz (8 ohm parallel resistor, 8ohm L-PAD, .2uf cap in series), rear firing wired out of phase
And what is the consensus of inserting phase plugs with the 165ks in this application? Would certainly be more durable than the dust cap 😛
1) Replace FE166Es with 165K's
2) Add a 'cheapo' CTS KSN-1005 peizo with LF roll off around 10khz (8 ohm parallel resistor, 8ohm L-PAD, .2uf cap in series), rear firing wired out of phase
And what is the consensus of inserting phase plugs with the 165ks in this application? Would certainly be more durable than the dust cap 😛
Yes, a rear firing tweeter works well with the 165k in my room. Having tried piezo and the radio shack pod tweeter (which isn't made anymore but closely resembles a $40 Fostex super tweeter sold at Madisound)... i recommend the Fostex tweeter. The piezo matches well with less detailed sounding drivers requiring air on top. The Fostex tweeter will have more output and match the 165k and sounds better imo.
Godzilla
Godzilla
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