A singular experiment with a unheated tube.

[Piercarlo]

Hi!

I came here with the story of a little experiment and a couple of questions about it.

THE EXPERIMENT

During a long debate/flame on italian internet magazine "VideoHiFi" concerning the sound of some Grundig vintage amplifiers and related technical issues, a doubt risen-up about the so called "tube sound": that sound is due to electrical features only of thermoionic devices or there are some other, non circuital, source of it? Maybe instead that some of "tube sound" is related to geometric properties of tube that influence the surrounding electric field distribution in the space inside the electronic equipment?

A little experiment was arranged in order to test the concept. The pins of a small tube (a little IF pentode drawn out from an old dismissed TV set) were ALL short-circuited to itself and connected to a general ground of a cheap DVD player - of not too pleasant sound quality - and the entire appliance connected to an amplifier for playing.

The sound of DVD player was totally changed: harshness disappear and a completely new euphony was boasted. The change, if I weren't directly faced to it, was really hard to believe as possible: the player appeared not just as tweaked electronic but as an entirely different player, more smoothed and "analogical" as I ever heard before from a digital players of anything kind.

Not sure of not going wild, I've proposed the same trick to be tested to a friend, which own a Copland CD 266. After having worked out the tweak, He was confronted with the same change in sound, which became unexpectedly more "analogous" and less harsh than before

A couple of week was left passing in order to get more acquainted with the new sound and leaving out any kind of "novelty effect". An old CD player - an elder Philips CD 471, good but not enough to made me forgetting it's digital sound - was tweaked in it's own with an old DY87, an EHT rectifier tube once used in B&W TV sets.
A first attempt was made in soldering to the ground just the top cap of anode provided with tube and lefting free the others pin.
The sound resulted unpleasantly more HARSHED than before, but was however, as in the preceeding experiment, literally "a big change for nothing" which claimed for an explanation. In either situations, internal circuit of the players WAS LEFT UNTOUCHED.

After took a day of pause and relax, i rearranged the DY87 in order to solder all pins to ground as done in the DVD player. And the magic of having for nothing a CD player with sweet and "analogical" sound was repeated again.

QUESTIONS

I've not any kind of explanation of phenomenon. It show itself with tubes unheated and thus the basis of it must be electrostatic and bound to the geometry of electric field instead of really conducting path. But, repeat, I can't get any working explanation of that curious phenomenon.

Someone can tell something about?

Thanks
Piercarlo (Milan, Italy)

 

[timpert]

Have you considered doing a double blind test to check whether the phenomenon is real at all? If the differences in sound are really that big, they must surely be detectable by an unbiased listener who doesn't know whether the tweak is in place or not...

 

[Piercarlo]

Have you considered doing a double blind test to check whether the phenomenon is real at all? If the differences in sound are really that big, they must surely be detectable by an unbiased listener who doesn't know whether the tweak is in place or not...

Not because the change IS NOT A NUANCES - Is strong and clean as the passage from a faulty to an healthy amplifier.

REPEAT: IS NOT A NUANCES.

Piercarlo

 

[timpert]

Are you sure the only thing you added was an unheated tube with all pins tied to a clean ground and NOTHING else? Were there no other modifications to your configuration?

Your results seem a little on the phantastic side for such a simple mod, you might want to prepare yourself for a healthy dose of skepticism in this forum. As you said, if the results are more than mere nuances, a properly executed test will show them unambiguously. Repeating your unquantifiable statement or talking in enthousiastic language doesn't add to your credibility, but a test does.

 

[nitrate]

I for one think this is a wind up. I bet the same people who believe this are the same kinda people who are willing to fork out more than £1K pounds for a mains power lead and then claim they couldnt live without one as the sound difference is 'Remarkable'. This of course is MY opinion and i'll be watching with interest to see if it's ME who is really the delusional one here.

This will be an interesting thread me thinks LOL 😀

Leigh

 

[Mooly]

Have you considered doing a double blind test to check whether the phenomenon is real at all? If the differences in sound are really that big, they must surely be detectable by an unbiased listener who doesn't know whether the tweak is in place or not...

Exactly-- It's called experimenter expectation. A change as large as you describe must be measurable.

 

[Piercarlo]

Are you sure the only thing you added was an unheated tube with all pins tied to a clean ground and NOTHING else? Were there no other modifications to your configuration?

Your results seem a little on the phantastic side for such a simple mod, you might want to prepare yourself for a healthy dose of skepticism in this forum. As you said, if the results are more than mere nuances, a properly executed test will show them unambiguously. Repeating your unquantifiable statement or talking in enthousiastic language doesn't add to your credibility, but a test does.

I've posted the question just for gathering other tests of phenomenon. The skeptcism is one thing, the unwill of repeating an experiment based simply on prejudices of "fantastic" is another.

I've posted any information necessary to repeat the experiment by anyone would do it. The modification done is only that i've told to have done. The tube used for experiment, for that i can suppose, is not a matter of importance. And not a matter of importance is the brand of player (my DVD player was the cheapest model sold some years ago in a giant store).

If you want to repeat the experiment by your own you can. If you want only play the role of "skeptic" without any try of verifing if facts exist independently of me, you are free of doing it but then your word have the same value of anyone else talking about something not directly known.

The phenomenon is too fantastic? Well: what, in anything other electrostatic phenomenon, is less fantastic before any explanation of it?

Repeat: I've not any kind of laboratory for doing "properly executed test". If so, I've vould not told anything here. I've just executed a little experiment in order to testing a TECHNICAL CONJECTURE, not for finding "miracles" or others bullshits, as used by some so called "audiophiles".
The experiment has get, in three istances, some definite results that need some explanation, which i can't get by my own. In order to gather that explanation, confirms or denies about the existence of phenomenon itself, i've posted my messages which, hopefully, should contain any information needed for replycating my experiences.

Last but not least: I don't pay any kind of attention to "audiophiles" issues and don't care of anyone doing it. I'm interested to audio only from a physical standpoint and nothing else.

Are there someone which would, from my scratch posted afore, FIRST repeat the experiment and AFTER talking about the results?

Thanks
Piercarlo

 

[analog_sa]

Hi Piercarlo

Thank you for an interesting and very brave (for this forum) post. IIRC there was a similar commercial device discussed here which also had a tube doing nothing at all. I shall certainly try to replicate your experiment, no matter how pointless it seems. If anything it may explain why people like tube buffers with their CD players. So far i haven't heard a sensible explanation for that either.

 

[timpert]

You actually have more experimental facilities than you might think. You have a solering iron, otherwise you couldn't have carried out the mod. I also assume you have a wire clipper. If you were to solder the tube in with a short piece of wire, you can clip it and reverse the mod within a second. Then you can test it like this:

Play a piece of on a modified player, together with a friend and have him/her confirm the effect with the mod in sight. Then place the player out of sight, and check if you still hear the effect. If so, you can carry on.

Now put the player on "repeat" and repeat the same piece of music a predetermined number of times over. Enter the third person. Have him/her gently clip the wire somewhere randomly while the music is playing (preferably pretty loud, so you don't hear the wire being clipped) and both you and your friend try to detect in which repetition of the song the wire was clipped. If you both independently guessed correctly in several sessions, then you might have a case.

Remember, YOU are the one making a far-out claim and now you diss others for being sceptical about it. The burden of proof lies with you, and so far you have failed to provide any. If you read a dismissal of your claim in my use of the word "phantastic", then I think this has more to do with your unadmitted uncertainty about the issue than with me dismissing your ideas. I would be willing to repeat your experiment at the loose end of a friday night (it doesn't need to take a lot of time), but the experiment must be sound to begin with. Otherwise, I won't bother.

 

[Piercarlo]

For completeness I've retrieved the links of some picture which illustrate what I've do on the DVD player

Top view:

http://i38.tinypic.com/dcbewn.jpg

Enlarged view of tube used in the experiment

http://i37.tinypic.com/znph52.jpg

Enlarged view of tube from rear. As viewable, pins are tied together by a soldered wire which is bound to a screw connecting the chassis to the main printed circuit ground (really a back plane.

http://i35.tinypic.com/2qbev04.jpg


Thanks again
Piercarlo

 

[timpert]

Hey Piercarlo, it so happens to BE a friday, and I found my wife willing to participate in an experiment tonignt. I haven't yet specified to her (I only will after the experiment has been done) what will be tested, so she is the perfect subject.

I have all the required stuff, so if we can agree upon the test procedure, I'll do it.

 

[Piercarlo]

Hey picarlo, it so happens to BE a friday, and I found my wife willing to participate in an experiment tonignt. I haven't yet specified to her (I only will after the experiment has been done) what will be tested, so she is the perfect subject.

I have all the required stuff, so if we can agree upon the test procedure, I'll do it.

Feel you free to use any procedure you retain apted to exclude any kind of self-suggestion or similar nuisances. I think the facts self-evident enough to exclude by itself any risk of serious misleading induced by expetances but it's just my opinion, not more. Please report here the result, if any.

Thanks
Piercarlo

 

[timpert]

Feel you free to use any procedure you retain apted to exclude any kind of self-suggestion or similar nuisances.

Sorry, but I don't think it will be that easy for you. You also need to agree with the test procedure. I might find things that support your idea, then all is fine, you provided the spark and I duplicated your results. But what if I don't find any effect? Would you reject my results as being invalid, or would you investigate further by setting up a proper experiment? That decision all depends on whether or not you agree with the procedure. And it is better to have this agreement beforehand.

So, if you are going to accept this challenge, I'll propose a procedure first, and after that I'll carry out the experiment. That is, if we can agree.

 

[Depanatoru]

Is this experiment a stupid joke ?

 

[jerluwoo]

I don't know about the whole tube soldered to ground thing, but, the type of foam you have it laying on is capable of producing substantial static electricity. Enough to make your arm hairs stand up.

 

[Piercarlo]

So, if you are going to accept this challenge, I'll propose a procedure first, and after that I'll carry out the experiment. That is, if we can agree.

I don't care. Do as you will. If your result don't agree with mine, they don't agree with mine. Stop. None is dying for it...

Piercarlo


PS - Your procedure is faulty because the clipping will be heard HOWEVER. Just at volume of a Dance Room you (pheraps) have enough loud to suppress the subliminal perception of clipping (or switching, is the same) the wire. Imho...

 

[Piercarlo]

Is this experiment a stupid joke ?

No.

Piercarlo

 

[timpert]

Test procedure

Piercarlo,

Okay, here's my proposal. As I don't have any extra people available, my wife and I are going to do it. Here's what I have in mind.

Setup:

The player will be a Harman Kardon 5 CD changer, which is not bad but nothing special either. My wife will listen to its music through a Sennheiser HD650 headphone. We'll use three different tunes. The tube will be a used Russian 6N1P, an audio triode with reportedly good sound.

Mods:

I will add the tube to the player as you described by soldering a solid core, uninsulated wire to the pins of a tube, and attaching the other end of that wire to a point where the PCB ground is connected to the player's chassis. I will clip the wire midway, and solder both ends together again. This way, I can make or break the joint silently with my soldering iron. The iron has a tip ground connection, so if I connect that to the player's chassis, making or breaking the joint will not cause any audible interference. I will test this first.

Procedure:

I will sit with the player in a room with a solid door, so that my wife on the other end of the door can't see me as she listens to the tunes through the headphone. I will play the same part of each tune four times in a row. For each session with a tune, I'll throw a dice. The outcome of the throw will determine what will be done in a session like this:

1: the tube will be disconnected and removed from the player before the music is started
2: the tube will be disconnected and removed from the player diring the first playing of the tune
3: the tube will be disconnected and removed from the player diring the second playing of the tune
4: the tube will be disconnected and removed from the player diring the third playing of the tune
5: the tube will be disconnected and removed from the player diring the fourth playing of the tune
6: the tube will not be disconnected and removed from the player

I'll give my wife a piece of paper, and ask her to note when she notices a change, and what that change is. After all three tunes have been auditioned, we'll evaluate the results.

Sounds reasonable?

 

[Piercarlo]

I don't know about the whole tube soldered to ground thing, but, the type of foam you have it laying on is capable of producing substantial static electricity. Enough to make your arm hairs stand up.

Is not a problem. The effect described on post were perceived BEFORE using that foam (is just a fit for avoiding tube wandering in the case). After applying it none has changed.

Piercarlo

 

[Piercarlo]

Re: Test procedure

Piercarlo,

Okay, here's my proposal. As I don't have any extra people available, my wife and I are going to do it. Here's what I have in mind.

Setup:

The player will be a Harman Kardon 5 CD changer, which is not bad but nothing special either. My wife will listen to its music through a Sennheiser HD650 headphone. We'll use three different tunes. The tube will be a used Russian 6N1P, an audio triode with reportedly good sound.

Ok. The audio quality of tube should not be a matter in this case. If my conjectures are corrects, the phenomenon operates in the ultrasonic region and the tubes act as an rough antenna in catching energy spikes irradiated by switching circuitry of decoder, filter, dac etc, and sinking them on a predefined ground terminale instead of randomly raining on "casual" grounding path.

Mods:

I will add the tube to the player as you described by soldering a solid core, uninsulated wire to the pins of a tube, and attaching the other end of that wire to a point where the PCB ground is connected to the player's chassis. I will clip the wire midway, and solder both ends together again. This way, I can make or break the joint silently with my soldering iron. The iron has a tip ground connection, so if I connect that to the player's chassis, making or breaking the joint will not cause any audible interference. I will test this first.

I suggest a little mod: wire insulate and ROUTED OUT of player case. The effect of tube, if any, should be tested in normal working conditions of the player, i.e. with chassis closed. Next steps are ok.

Procedure:

I will sit with the player in a room with a solid door, so that my wife on the other end of the door can't see me as she listens to the tunes through the headphone. I will play the same part of each tune four times in a row. For each session with a tune, I'll throw a dice. The outcome of the throw will determine what will be done in a session like this:

1: the tube will be disconnected and removed from the player before the music is started
2: the tube will be disconnected and removed from the player during the first playing of the tune
3: the tube will be disconnected and removed from the player during the second playing of the tune
4: the tube will be disconnected and removed from the player during the third playing of the tune
5: the tube will be disconnected and removed from the player during the fourth playing of the tune
6: the tube will not be disconnected and removed from the player

I'll give my wife a piece of paper, and ask her to note when she notices a change, and what that change is. After all three tunes have been auditioned, we'll evaluate the results.

Sounds reasonable?

Yes. Obviously in this situation the player must be left open and my suggestion before is useless. If you will, I suggest however a seventh step with the player closed. And an eighth random step with a "false change"

Piercarlo