Hi to everyone,
I had the chance to listen to two different amplifiers with two friends who are audio-addicts like me.
Here the two configurations:
Amp 1:
---------
two ucd 180 monoblocks, with audiograde R-core transformers each one with two secondaries, Siemens Sikorel Caps (10,000 uF on each monoblocks), silicon rectifiers (two on each amp)
Amp2:
--------
two UcD 400 monoblocks, the same as the previous one with the difference that this one has toroids and BCH Aervox caps.
I think the first one was much over the second. I guess is due to the R-core transformer which makes a lot of difference on the extremes of the band (I mean 20-200 Hz and 16-20KHz).
The difference is more ROBUST sound, I would say in one word. For example take the Bach's fugues, with the 180 configuration I could reaaly feel the destroying power, the impetous of the sound. It was really like a tornado' 4mters form you. The space of the sound was wider, more present, the immage perfect.
In a word I would say that both of them were correct, low distortion I mean. But in terms of MUSICALITY the 180 configuration was much better.
I also suspect that the difference of Caps is central. Sikorel are somenthing really over the top.
Yes, with ucd 180 you have less power, but you have the chance to buid a really good power supplay. As the experience with Naim preamp power supply tought me, I now understand that what really makes difference with amplification is the transformers. Toroids are not that great, they sound flat, the sounds they produce is like a beautiful well educated women, say a queen, but without sex attitudes.
The power is not a problem in a two-channel hifi system. 20 excellent Watts are enough for a 90db speakers in a 6x6 meters room.
The problem with the 400 is that for instance you cannot find good R-core. Even better than R-core we have C-core, but they cost a lot and VA rating could be a problem.
Let me know if you have other experiences, I would really like to hear from you about comparison between 180 and 400. But I am talking about audiophile applications where sound QUALITY is the only thing that really matters.
By I hope to hear form you soon,
KEPha
I had the chance to listen to two different amplifiers with two friends who are audio-addicts like me.
Here the two configurations:
Amp 1:
---------
two ucd 180 monoblocks, with audiograde R-core transformers each one with two secondaries, Siemens Sikorel Caps (10,000 uF on each monoblocks), silicon rectifiers (two on each amp)
Amp2:
--------
two UcD 400 monoblocks, the same as the previous one with the difference that this one has toroids and BCH Aervox caps.
I think the first one was much over the second. I guess is due to the R-core transformer which makes a lot of difference on the extremes of the band (I mean 20-200 Hz and 16-20KHz).
The difference is more ROBUST sound, I would say in one word. For example take the Bach's fugues, with the 180 configuration I could reaaly feel the destroying power, the impetous of the sound. It was really like a tornado' 4mters form you. The space of the sound was wider, more present, the immage perfect.
In a word I would say that both of them were correct, low distortion I mean. But in terms of MUSICALITY the 180 configuration was much better.
I also suspect that the difference of Caps is central. Sikorel are somenthing really over the top.
Yes, with ucd 180 you have less power, but you have the chance to buid a really good power supplay. As the experience with Naim preamp power supply tought me, I now understand that what really makes difference with amplification is the transformers. Toroids are not that great, they sound flat, the sounds they produce is like a beautiful well educated women, say a queen, but without sex attitudes.
The power is not a problem in a two-channel hifi system. 20 excellent Watts are enough for a 90db speakers in a 6x6 meters room.
The problem with the 400 is that for instance you cannot find good R-core. Even better than R-core we have C-core, but they cost a lot and VA rating could be a problem.
Let me know if you have other experiences, I would really like to hear from you about comparison between 180 and 400. But I am talking about audiophile applications where sound QUALITY is the only thing that really matters.
By I hope to hear form you soon,
KEPha
Hmmmm
Plug the 400's into the 180's chassis and get back to us. I feel your comparison falls apart at the different caps, like you said.
What don't you like about foil coils?
Toroids no good?? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Well, you're not afraid to go against the grain, I admire that 🙂
Cheers,
Chris
Plug the 400's into the 180's chassis and get back to us. I feel your comparison falls apart at the different caps, like you said.
What don't you like about foil coils?
Toroids no good?? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Well, you're not afraid to go against the grain, I admire that 🙂
Cheers,
Chris
A "serious" comparison will be to compare the same UcD module with two different PSU, nor to compare UcD180/UcD400 each one with two different power supply.
classd4sure said:
we have already done that. The 180 is still better, I guess this would not be corect anyway since the 180 Psu has no enough VA for the 400.
Mmmh! I am not the only one! Look at a well known webpage
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/t/naim/powersupplies.html]
Anyway, what I don't like is the artificial satin that they give to sound. Maybe I am not able to express what I mean in English but look at the link above, it is clearer there, I fell the same as they explain.
Are you sure that toroids are better? Maybe these believes is only because to produce high VA rated transformers they are the only kind of wound which are affordable.
With my circle of friend we have tried to compare different audiograde transoformers on commercial amps (20-50Watt on 8Ohm) R-core and C-core always beat the 'famous' toroids.
ciao
Kepha
kephaudio said:
Hi,
I'm sure toroids are better for EMI purposes anyway. That has to relate to better sound too.
People always worry about their english 🙂 You're expressing yourself perfectly!
I'll read that link after I have a little rest and watch a movie, but I accept your opinion/observations. I haven't heard both amps so I can't give you mine, just thought this is very interesting.
Are those stock modules? What versions, what revisions?
Thank you and thanks for posting what no will no doubt turn out to be a very interesting thread.
Chris
Hi dear,
Yes, you are right, the problem is that it is very hard to me to find a good audio-grade R-core transformer for the UCD400. If you know a good europen seller please let me know.
We used the
http://www.hifituning.de/html/r-core_trafos.html
which are very well known to be over the top for audio applications. As you see form the link they do not produce a good one for the Ucd 400.
I think the ocmparison is 'serious' anyway, **except the power** the 180 and 400 where playing very similar both with toroids and BCH aervox...played in the same system of course (I forgot to mention this). They had the same sound, the only difference was the maximum power, which didn't make so much difference with 90dB speakers in a 6X6mt room.
So changing the transformer and caps in the 180 the quality of sound changed a lot, I guess my conlcusion is therefore correct.
Please put attention on this: I am not talking about distortion, dynamics and so on. I am talking about MUSICALITY which is the true difference (in my poor view) between excellent amplifications and over the top amplifications.
Sorry to have not specified some important detail of the test.
Bye for now,
KEPha
stef1777 said:
Yes, you are right, the problem is that it is very hard to me to find a good audio-grade R-core transformer for the UCD400. If you know a good europen seller please let me know.
We used the
http://www.hifituning.de/html/r-core_trafos.html
which are very well known to be over the top for audio applications. As you see form the link they do not produce a good one for the Ucd 400.
I think the ocmparison is 'serious' anyway, **except the power** the 180 and 400 where playing very similar both with toroids and BCH aervox...played in the same system of course (I forgot to mention this). They had the same sound, the only difference was the maximum power, which didn't make so much difference with 90dB speakers in a 6X6mt room.
So changing the transformer and caps in the 180 the quality of sound changed a lot, I guess my conlcusion is therefore correct.
Please put attention on this: I am not talking about distortion, dynamics and so on. I am talking about MUSICALITY which is the true difference (in my poor view) between excellent amplifications and over the top amplifications.
Sorry to have not specified some important detail of the test.
Bye for now,
KEPha
OK I was confused earlier, thought you were comparing modules and it seems you're more comparing power supplies.
Ignore me I'm going to sleep 🙂
PS: How is the mechanical hum?
Ignore me I'm going to sleep 🙂
PS: How is the mechanical hum?
classd4sure said:
You are right, but we built a cabinet with a separate box for the transformers with an extreme shilld grounded properly, under working condition we measured the EMF around the separate bow of the transformer...perfect shileding!
We bought the modules at the beginning of September, they are the improved version (more expensive)
Ciao,
Kepha
classd4sure said:
Anyway this is interesting too! My point is that it could be that the difference between them, except the power is not that great. but I think the psu can make a huge difference.
I have the impression that, whenever is possible, we should explore the use of different transforomers..I think -- and I am not the only one -- that toroids sound their way, maybe ones like that sound, but it is still possible to get better more PRESENT sound with other wounds.
Also the point is that less power means that with same money you can buy better component, i.e. possibly better sound. Do you really need 200Watts on 8Ohm in a small room? Ok if you have Infinity RS Sigma you need even more, but that kind of speaker are only exceptions. We now have more efficient speakers and we don't need so powerful equipment. What we need is quality. That is my philosophy, but I respect other point of view.
Ciao
KEPha
Thanks Kepha for your interesting observations 🙂
I think you are wright on the path: better PS.
I remember even Bruno complained about PS caps being so influential on final sound from the amps. And later, independent PS to input opamp.
I manage to find suitable Sikorel's (thanks ACD) and unfortunatelly I had to buy Plitron's 500VA toroids because I didn't knew about R-cores. I'm plannig to use small R-cores for low voltage projects like CDP and DAC's (and possibly UCD's input PS) .
Could a big EI 1:1 isolation transformer paced previous to the amps imitate the R-core effect?
Thanks
Mauricio
I think you are wright on the path: better PS.
I remember even Bruno complained about PS caps being so influential on final sound from the amps. And later, independent PS to input opamp.
I manage to find suitable Sikorel's (thanks ACD) and unfortunatelly I had to buy Plitron's 500VA toroids because I didn't knew about R-cores. I'm plannig to use small R-cores for low voltage projects like CDP and DAC's (and possibly UCD's input PS) .
Could a big EI 1:1 isolation transformer paced previous to the amps imitate the R-core effect?
Thanks
Mauricio
from a scientific stand point, it sounds like you were ONLY testing transformers, not the actual modules. that is fine, but you cant say that you were testing the 180 vs the 400. thats not what was happening.
RE. C-core versus toroid transformers:
The following are the advantages,disadvantages which I`ve gleaned from reading various transformer websites;
C-core has typically 30db better EMI suppression,the core saturates far less and has less mechanical hum when DC is present on the mains supply,greater energy storage and lower harmonic distortion.
Drawbacks include greater cost , bulk and radiated magnetic field,the latter requires some sort of shielding to cure problem.
Hope this is useful.
Bob Lewis
The following are the advantages,disadvantages which I`ve gleaned from reading various transformer websites;
C-core has typically 30db better EMI suppression,the core saturates far less and has less mechanical hum when DC is present on the mains supply,greater energy storage and lower harmonic distortion.
Drawbacks include greater cost , bulk and radiated magnetic field,the latter requires some sort of shielding to cure problem.
Hope this is useful.
Bob Lewis
cowanrg said:
Well, yes agree that the title of the post is not very accurate. But I wanted to tell our experience with the two modules with different power supplies. I think in my first post I didn't -- at least I didn't want to -- put 180 vs 400, indeed I was talking about the two "configurations" (amp 1 and amp 2).
Anyway in one of the replay I also explained that we tested the 180 vs 400 both with the same psu (same topology, both with toroids and same caps) and as I said we didn't find any relevant difference in the SOUND quality, they both had the same flavor.
Of course I immagine that turning the volume at the very right we should have seen the difference in terms of power...but we didn't! With 90db speakers in a 6x6 room we couldn't! These babies cry so much!!
Maybe friends from Hypex can tell us more, they tested their amps I guess in many conditions. But I am almost 99% sure that with the similar psu the only difference is power while SOUND, ceteris paribus, would be strongly dependent on PSU component and topology.
At the end this is not new at all. We know that psu is the relevant bit which makes huge difference on the CHARCTARER of the sound. Sound is body and soul, I see the amp as the soul the power supply as the body.
Two years ago my brother was complaining that his NAD amp (2x50W) was lacking of basses, we rebuilt the psu with good components and the sound cheanged as night and day.
Ciao,
KEPha
BOB LEWIS said:
HI,
I am not an engineer, but I think I have experience with different transformers because I am into an audio-addict comunity where a lot of friends like to make crazy experiments with different transformers and psu topology. I have been listening to amps with different psu from a long time.
I don't know the scientific reason, the only think I know is that C-CORE are the best. If you care about money then toroids are the best think you can have, but no good toroids can beat a good C-CORE or a R-CORE for what concearns the sound.
BUT again I am only talking about SOUND. With toroids usually I experienced that you loose the sound stage, the PHISICITY of sound, as I said it's like the sound has a VELVET on it which is not natuaral, maybe people like that but personally I find it artificial.
Bye,
KEPha
KEPha,
I agree with you about the sound of C-cores,they appear to give a feeling of unrestrained dynamics and presence. I`ve been using C-cores on my amps for the past six years and wouldn`t go back to toroids.
Bob Lewis
I agree with you about the sound of C-cores,they appear to give a feeling of unrestrained dynamics and presence. I`ve been using C-cores on my amps for the past six years and wouldn`t go back to toroids.
Bob Lewis
BOB LEWIS said:
Hi
have you ever tried R-core, in my experience C-core are better than R-cores but R-core are still better than toroids.
I see that you are from Great Britain, where do you usually get C-cores, now I am working in London. I know that the best c-cores are those by Lundhal...but they cost money not nuts!!!!
let me know,
KEPha
KEPha,
My C-cores are from Avondale Audio UK,750va with double mono secondaries. Never tried R-core although my SONY SACD player has a pair of them.
As for the best C-cores,have you seen the AUDIONOTE ones?
Their top versions feature nickel cores and silver wire,some costing nearly £3000!!!!!
Bob Lewis
My C-cores are from Avondale Audio UK,750va with double mono secondaries. Never tried R-core although my SONY SACD player has a pair of them.
As for the best C-cores,have you seen the AUDIONOTE ones?
Their top versions feature nickel cores and silver wire,some costing nearly £3000!!!!!
Bob Lewis
BOB LEWIS said:
Wow, how about the worst/cheapest?? I paid over 300 for a 500VA with static screening and magnetic shielding... yeah I feel ripped off, thanks Plitron @%@#$%,just like at Macdonalds, no special orders!!! The magnetic shielding seems worth it though.
Classd4sure,
If you want to read an in depth technical article why C-cores are the best go to the AUDIONOTE website ,click on KITS and COMPONENTS,then TRANSFORMERS.
First scroll down the page to see the mind boggling prices of these things!
Bob Lewis
If you want to read an in depth technical article why C-cores are the best go to the AUDIONOTE website ,click on KITS and COMPONENTS,then TRANSFORMERS.
First scroll down the page to see the mind boggling prices of these things!
Bob Lewis
i just think its silly to even test the two amps (ucd400 vs ucd180) with that test system. a 90dB speaker in a 6 x 6 room wont even need anywhere NEAR 180 watts, let alone 400. so, there is no point to even throw the ucd400 into the mix. you could/should have just stuck with testing two 180's with various power supply options.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.