The DIY Sound Group offers home theater kits that use PA drivers and horns. It is based in US, they offer flat packs but may be back ordered as they are a small business.
https://www.diysoundgroup.com/
There is also a lot of info on the DIYaudio site on line arrays and various high output subs, they tend to be large though (look up Bill Fitzmaurice Tuba Subs).
R
https://www.diysoundgroup.com/
There is also a lot of info on the DIYaudio site on line arrays and various high output subs, they tend to be large though (look up Bill Fitzmaurice Tuba Subs).
R
One problem is that when I listen in clear light I not only hear the system but I also see it
There can be a conflict between senses
The music is usually so much better in the dark when the system can't be seen
There can be a conflict between senses
The music is usually so much better in the dark when the system can't be seen
That's a really widespread problem in the HiFi scene. Too many ppl listen 'with their eyes' and disregard less (optical) impressive speakers or - sound wise - are impressed by increased bass and treble (compared to other speakers) but get fatigued by them very quickly when the speakers arrive at home. I've seen that endless times happening. You need to learn how to judge speakers and just a few minutes listening will always make you prefer the 'loudness' speakers but in the long run you are getting tired by that very quickly.
Hi ! Yes exactly what I tried to explain
People should use a sleeping mask when they listen to a system for evaluation
And of course the listening room plays a big role
I had a weird experience some years ago
I was invited to listen to a huge pair of JBL 4350
They almost filled with their bodies the front wall
Then when the system was warmed up they began to disappear sonically while they were clearly visible
The sound was clearly coming from behind them
This was a little uncomfortable
I asked to switch off lights and we were transported in the concert hall
Is this Wonderful experience possible with PA speakers as well?
I guess so
Often they are discharged more on the basis of their look than their sound
The exact opposite of hi-fi speakers made with precious woods and very nice looking
Slim line arrays could be less impacting visually and so better received
The secret lies in the drivers quality
It's like raw materials quality in cooking
It's decisive
Still excellent raw materials should be cooked wisely
People should use a sleeping mask when they listen to a system for evaluation
And of course the listening room plays a big role
I had a weird experience some years ago
I was invited to listen to a huge pair of JBL 4350
They almost filled with their bodies the front wall
Then when the system was warmed up they began to disappear sonically while they were clearly visible
The sound was clearly coming from behind them
This was a little uncomfortable
I asked to switch off lights and we were transported in the concert hall
Is this Wonderful experience possible with PA speakers as well?
I guess so
Often they are discharged more on the basis of their look than their sound
The exact opposite of hi-fi speakers made with precious woods and very nice looking
Slim line arrays could be less impacting visually and so better received
The secret lies in the drivers quality
It's like raw materials quality in cooking
It's decisive
Still excellent raw materials should be cooked wisely
My HT system is designed primarily for dynamics. Currently I use a 7.0 PSV Stratus (25 years old) system with a Nuforce MCA 20. it sound great for movies and for music when I want to create an ersatz surround system. The system is based upon audio quality bandwidth though.
For 2 ch audio, however, I believe in tubes, FET and class A.
The HT system will play LOUD and CLEAN.
The 2 ch system plays very accurately, with an extremely low noise floor and outstanding dynamics, but NOT loud.
No, no PA for me.
That's how I would describe my speakers, too.
They are not small, either. The woofer cabinets are about 9 cubic feet in gross volume, but to me, they are just part of my furniture. They are invisible, sound wise, so I don't notice them at all.
Hi ! thank you for your very interesting reply
Have you tried the HT system at the levels you normally use with the tubes ? what are you missing ? finesse ?
try again in the dark
so i get that PA systems cannot be accurate ? just to understand what you mean with accurate ? soundstage ? detail ?
again Klipsh systems were born for PA Then they made better looking cabinets and started to sell them to home listeners
The look can be very deceiving
I have to study better the drivers used in PA systems Everything starts from them The drivers are the secret
PA systems tend to play loud and are rugged.
Micro dynamics are not their forte.
So for my HT, I wanted something that would have excellent macro dynamics and play loud. Hopefully not need a sub woofer. I will play that system louder than the 2 channel set up. Also, I wanted the speakers to be as neutral as possible with the sound staging, not add their own to it - that's the job I left to the 2ch system. I wanted to hear the sound staging that was recorded into the movie.
The PSBs in the HT, are Stratus Gold i's, matching big center channel and four in wall coax surrounds. I've run them with other amps but it gets mighty expensive to power seven speakers with class A amps.... Indeed, my choice of HT speakers exceed the needs of most music ( except perhaps The Fifth Element and Amadeus - where the system absolutely shines ). I've had the Gold i's driven and they sound extremely good, with both micro and macro dynamics galore and spot on imaging...
Before the PSBs, about 24 years ago, I had a pair of PSB 600 Century with matching center and two PSB Mini... and even before that I had ADS L810 with three ADS L100s. All of those systems excel at music and also do great imaging...
...but the Maggie 1.7 and the little Audio Notes walk over them for music in the system. I can hear into the music so much better... I can hear the layering of instruments, the engineering over dubbing, panning of instruments and voices, delays... I mean, I can hear into the (think Acoustic Energy AE1s) recording while at the same time they add a "warmth" -ANs are against the wall- and their own soundstage and unique presentation -the large bipolar panels of the Maggies... Monitors don't do that... neither will PA speakers.
In fact, I like the Maggie sound so much that I got a "spare" pair of Maggie 12 speakers that I keep thinking I'll use in the HT... I could get the center channel... but then I'll miss the impact ( LOUD ) for movies that the big PSBs deliver.... and then it will screw up the sound staging... Maggies are great with stereo recordings but likely will screw up the sound effects in Das Boot.
The Stratus series was also known for excellent imaging, and they do so very well. Recently I modified the HT set up to include a Parasound P7 between the Emo processor and the amp... so my plan is to drive music through the P7, not the Emo... we'll see. Still working on it.
If only ZM had designed an 8 channel Iron Pre.... ;-)
Micro dynamics are not their forte.
So for my HT, I wanted something that would have excellent macro dynamics and play loud. Hopefully not need a sub woofer. I will play that system louder than the 2 channel set up. Also, I wanted the speakers to be as neutral as possible with the sound staging, not add their own to it - that's the job I left to the 2ch system. I wanted to hear the sound staging that was recorded into the movie.
The PSBs in the HT, are Stratus Gold i's, matching big center channel and four in wall coax surrounds. I've run them with other amps but it gets mighty expensive to power seven speakers with class A amps.... Indeed, my choice of HT speakers exceed the needs of most music ( except perhaps The Fifth Element and Amadeus - where the system absolutely shines ). I've had the Gold i's driven and they sound extremely good, with both micro and macro dynamics galore and spot on imaging...
Before the PSBs, about 24 years ago, I had a pair of PSB 600 Century with matching center and two PSB Mini... and even before that I had ADS L810 with three ADS L100s. All of those systems excel at music and also do great imaging...
...but the Maggie 1.7 and the little Audio Notes walk over them for music in the system. I can hear into the music so much better... I can hear the layering of instruments, the engineering over dubbing, panning of instruments and voices, delays... I mean, I can hear into the (think Acoustic Energy AE1s) recording while at the same time they add a "warmth" -ANs are against the wall- and their own soundstage and unique presentation -the large bipolar panels of the Maggies... Monitors don't do that... neither will PA speakers.
In fact, I like the Maggie sound so much that I got a "spare" pair of Maggie 12 speakers that I keep thinking I'll use in the HT... I could get the center channel... but then I'll miss the impact ( LOUD ) for movies that the big PSBs deliver.... and then it will screw up the sound staging... Maggies are great with stereo recordings but likely will screw up the sound effects in Das Boot.
The Stratus series was also known for excellent imaging, and they do so very well. Recently I modified the HT set up to include a Parasound P7 between the Emo processor and the amp... so my plan is to drive music through the P7, not the Emo... we'll see. Still working on it.
If only ZM had designed an 8 channel Iron Pre.... ;-)
Last edited:
They can be very accurate in phase, transient, frequency and polar response.
If the speaker is accurate, soundstage and detail follow.
I also used to think drivers were "the secret".
Then I compared a client's Mackie HD1531 PA speaker (around $1200 cost in 2009) to a Danley SH-100 and one of my own speakers he was considering to reduce weight and hopefully improve his live sound.
The frequency response variations in the 125-315Hz range were due to measurement error.
The HD1531 was superior to the speakers we compared it to in most metrics other than size.
After we listened, measured and compared, realized that FIR DSP could do things that were impossible with IIR processing, making low cost components work with excellent fidelity at SPL levels that would be far more than one would typically ever use in a home environment.
Costs have come down and response has improved since then.
Art
I should add that I don't think it's the driver per se... but the combination of enclosure, crossover and driver. Sure, the driver can, and does, force its character... such as a dipole planar or a ribbon or metal, or paper or dome... due to dispersion, power and frequency characteristics... but, but...
I think it all comes down to the application and the parts that were used for the design of the SPEAKER.
For example, I know of very few speakers, if any, that can match a Magnepan with a high quality powerful amp ( this is the main reason I came to this forum... btw )... Or the accuracy of my Acoustic Energy AE1s which blow away most monitors...
The Maggies have no enclosure to speak of... the AE1s have an incredibly dense enclosure ( go ahead, pick one up.... ), then you got my little Audio Notes... with a cabinet designed to add to the music...
Again, it's the combination.
But, I would not put a PA speaker in a residential audio system nor a recording studio. Not unless you are recording a THX movie surround track at Lucas Studio. Then you want LOUD, OK go PA.... but if you want accuracy, go monitor and if you want to play around with how the speaker works with the room. got DIY or audiophile residential.
Just, don't go spending money on a 850K Wilson.
BTW, the measurements you showed, those are frequency... how about impulse response, polar response? Given a reasonable midrange, I think those are actually more important for a residential music application.
And, to be quite honest, in my 2ch system, I want to minimize all digital processing. When I'm playing records, it's all analog.. Sure, I got a very nice DAC too but why would i want to digitize my music? IMHO, just make the speaker sound good, naturally, without applying patches.
I think it all comes down to the application and the parts that were used for the design of the SPEAKER.
For example, I know of very few speakers, if any, that can match a Magnepan with a high quality powerful amp ( this is the main reason I came to this forum... btw )... Or the accuracy of my Acoustic Energy AE1s which blow away most monitors...
The Maggies have no enclosure to speak of... the AE1s have an incredibly dense enclosure ( go ahead, pick one up.... ), then you got my little Audio Notes... with a cabinet designed to add to the music...
Again, it's the combination.
But, I would not put a PA speaker in a residential audio system nor a recording studio. Not unless you are recording a THX movie surround track at Lucas Studio. Then you want LOUD, OK go PA.... but if you want accuracy, go monitor and if you want to play around with how the speaker works with the room. got DIY or audiophile residential.
Just, don't go spending money on a 850K Wilson.
BTW, the measurements you showed, those are frequency... how about impulse response, polar response? Given a reasonable midrange, I think those are actually more important for a residential music application.
And, to be quite honest, in my 2ch system, I want to minimize all digital processing. When I'm playing records, it's all analog.. Sure, I got a very nice DAC too but why would i want to digitize my music? IMHO, just make the speaker sound good, naturally, without applying patches.
Last edited:
The response of the HD1531 posted in # 29 had phase response on the upper graph, frequency on the lower.
The near flat phase response is indicative of it's excellent impulse response.
Unlike the Magnepan, it has useful polar response:
Unlike the Acoustic Energy AE1, the HD1531 can cleanly reproduce the dynamic range of live acoustic instruments, which can reach 125dB at one meter.
Seems you have not compared PA or studio monitor speakers using FIR processing to the ones you listen to, and you have made your decision to exclude them based on an anti-digital philosophy.
Cheers,
Art
If you want to enjoy a PA system at home, you need a large room. In a small room it may be funny, but you will have better sound with a good HIFI set-up. Sorry, there is no way around that. PA is for a large audience in matching, large room.
I have lived with my private PA systems for more than 30 years now...
I have lived with my private PA systems for more than 30 years now...
I designed these speakers for a home system using PA drivers:
B&C 15CXN88 coax
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/ultimate-open-baffle-gallery.123512/post-6682515
Faital 12HX230 coax
http://www.tinyurl.com/dipoleplans
B&C 15CXN88 coax
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/ultimate-open-baffle-gallery.123512/post-6682515
Faital 12HX230 coax
http://www.tinyurl.com/dipoleplans
Just depends on the quality of the engineering. PA can have "micro dynamics" galore. PA can do it all.
I keep two pairs of full-range electrostatic speakers around, for comparing to both quality store-bought PA, and numerous DIY speakers all capable of PA SPL levels.
(Both pairs of stats have noticeably more detail and air than Maggies, which I've had a fair amount of experience with, and also like.)
Anyway ime, it's simply a mistake to think loud and finesse can't coexist in the same speaker.
Another it depends....
Ime, the size of the speaker in terms of c2c distances between driver sections is what determines the size of the room needed. Those c2c distances / speaker size establishes where the acoustic far-field begins. As long as I can listen in the acoustic far-field, the speaker sound fine.....(whether in studio terms, near or far)
Room size requirement really hasn't had much to do with SPL capability, for me.
One of the best room-speaker combos I've ever heard, is in a small/medium bedroom, with a pair of Meyer UPA-1p tops (3" diaphragm CD on 100H by 40V waveguide over a ported 12") and a 650-P sub (double 18" ported)
It's simply amazing to me how good speakers can sound with FIR applied to each channel of multi-way amplification.
What the traditional world is missing.......
Given the ability to so easily correct and crossover drivers, I'm now more inclined to think drivers need to be selected for how well the hold up at large signal through their intended passband, more so than the usually discussed considerations. (T/S specs, impedance wiggles etc)
That’s the problem with all these cheap powered PA speakers. They actually sound quite nice - until you start expecting real professional level SPL out of them. Then you can tell what cost real money and what doesn’t. And even mid priced stuff doesn’t really have heavy duty drivers in them. So you can’t really give them the pounding you could with the old school stuff. You need to move into price brackets I’m not willing to go to get that.
Hi ! thank you very much for your kind and very valuable advice
in my limited little brain there is now such a quantity of information that I struggle to process
Let's say that I am increasingly convinced that the objectives for excellent reproduction must be low THD and noise and a complete and flat frequency response
But there is a sea between saying and doing
For low THD, horns immediately come to mind
Which can also be used with cone speakers like Avantgarde does They use an Audax cone mid i guess
Here a horn-loaded wideband PA could be an optimal solution for the mid-highs
I must admit that my psychological block towards PA systems comes from their size
Now I have discovered line arrays and I have fallen in love with them
But I wonder what a cheap 3" cone horn-loaded could do Of course you have to know how to make the horn
A horn can add 3-12dB (or more) on axis sensitivity, but the ratio of SPL output to enclosed volume is reduced by comparison to front-loaded drivers.
The problem with cheap 3” cones is the motor to mass ratio is usually total $#**, so you dont end up with much gain above a kHz. And the lack of a proper phase plug means more roll off, cancellations and other anomalies. I get just as nice a result, or better, with the old standby, the 8PE32 (and a 1.2kHz crossover). I thought I’d get better result, going higher with a closed back 6”, but no dice. So back to what works. I haven’t seen a 3” with anywhere near the motor of the 6’s either, so starting out at 82 dB/W before what little horn gain it can muster, and handling only 15 watts doesn’t inspire any confidence either.
in diy loudspeaker magazines you find ready made concepts with PA speakers but trimmed to linearity and low distortion.
in germany the diy magazines are Hobby Hifi and Klang und Ton
https://oaudio.de/Hobby-Hifi-Retro-HiFi-PA-High-End-Bausatz
overview ready designed kits for diy building with high efficiency drivers:
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/kkits_wirkungsgrad.htm
in germany the diy magazines are Hobby Hifi and Klang und Ton
https://oaudio.de/Hobby-Hifi-Retro-HiFi-PA-High-End-Bausatz
overview ready designed kits for diy building with high efficiency drivers:
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/kkits_wirkungsgrad.htm