Sir, I think you don't understand. I am not accusing him of anything, nor am I speculating, that intention is far from me.
What motivated my post was a legitimate act of defense of your constant diatribes towards everything that you consider "superfluous and useless" to fully enjoy music.
You are fully entitled to connect a subwoofer to your television, and if it seems attractive you could place one on each side of the dog box, that does not seem objectionable or reprehensible to me. It is your pleasure, your time and your money.
But your constant tirades towards those of us who, like me, have a sound system one step further - quite short, by the way - than what you consider the limit for listening to Hi Fi, seems to me quite tiresome and lacking in all technical/scientific logic. .
It seems that you consider that all those who go a little further are wealthy people who spend their money just for snobbery or are victims of marketing and do not know how to discern when something contributes to a hearing improvement or when not.
. I only ask for respect for them - myself included - and that you not detract from this every time you have the opportunity.
In his opinion, current cars with self-supporting bodies should not exist because when they collide strongly, they are no longer useful, which would not happen if they were still manufactured with solid chassis, in the style of Elliot Ness movies. Let's not talk about advances to protect passengers. Air bags and ABS brakes? Come on, just marketing!
I think your crusade towards what you consider to be the "snobbists" of audio, the "victims of marketing" is, to say the least, exaggerated.
And I think that the Dual turntables were very fragile and complicated, from my own experience I say so.
Please share the pictures. Never seen that.
I dont think they mill that way. It is copper sheets that are bent like they want. Like ordinary production.
The best way would be to bend, spot weld, test, chrome plate and then finally assemble the chassis.
That works for most metals, which are ductile.
Unless you are doing critical stuff, using a solid block of copper is simply showmanship, of no tangible worth in an audio system.
Audiophools are allowed to say what they want, as toddlers and senile people are also all left to enjoy themselves as they wish.
That works for most metals, which are ductile.
Unless you are doing critical stuff, using a solid block of copper is simply showmanship, of no tangible worth in an audio system.
Audiophools are allowed to say what they want, as toddlers and senile people are also all left to enjoy themselves as they wish.
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Spot welding copper can be done, but it is difficult. Trying to spot weld copper of decent thickness to make a case would require special equipment and the finished welds would not be pretty.
When you silver plate copper, the surface conductivity is improved. As the silver oxidizes the conductivity gets even better.
I would expect serious degradation of the electrical properties of the case if chrome or nickel plated.
Of course the other problem would be getting sheets of copper that are clean enough to assemble and later plate.
On the current project list is to silk screen some anodized aluminum panels. They must be screened within hours after anodizing. After a day or two out of the dye bath they will have oxidized enough the ink won’t stick!
If you want ludicrous bragging rights it has to be milled!
Boeing now makes aircraft wings by milling out some very large bits of aluminum.
When you silver plate copper, the surface conductivity is improved. As the silver oxidizes the conductivity gets even better.
I would expect serious degradation of the electrical properties of the case if chrome or nickel plated.
Of course the other problem would be getting sheets of copper that are clean enough to assemble and later plate.
On the current project list is to silk screen some anodized aluminum panels. They must be screened within hours after anodizing. After a day or two out of the dye bath they will have oxidized enough the ink won’t stick!
If you want ludicrous bragging rights it has to be milled!
Boeing now makes aircraft wings by milling out some very large bits of aluminum.
Pictures were lost with crushed computer a decade ago. A guy close to PQ shared them with me saying a Greek millionaire custom ordered " best amps they could come up with" Those solid milled chassis were huge! Apparently Greece has a community of a wealthy audiophiles.
E.H. Scott's line of vintage radios had fully chromed chassis - asides from having to do restorations on them, the chrome was of no issue.
Same goes for McIntosh chromed chassis audio.
However, I see no benefit to chroming a chassis other than to give it impressive eye candy appeal.
I met a few. They have the same insecurities as us, poor audiophiles and need a confirmation of their choices. Not fools by any meaning and quite developed listeners. Also not condescending toward less fortunate ones with lesser equipment. It's a known fact that after you cross certain quality threshold additional zeros in the price provide less and less impact on the sound. I have no problem with wealthy audiophiles. It's usually the poor ones who are venomous...
I do tend to agree with that.
Similar to any specific group or race by saying: "But not all of them are bad"
Chrome plating is to prevent corrosion.
Copper, steel and silver do corrode, more in humid conditions.
Copper can be spot welded, but then there is no need for it in audio applications.
Stainless steel is a better choice, won't ever rust!
Copper, steel and silver do corrode, more in humid conditions.
Copper can be spot welded, but then there is no need for it in audio applications.
Stainless steel is a better choice, won't ever rust!
Those were steel chassis and chrome or similar plating would be better than the otherwise guaranteed rust! Chrome on copper would be more of a problem as the yield strength is less than 1/3 of steel and the elongation at least twice that.
Simon, please check again, silver does get corroded in salty atmospheric conditions.
The maker must have worst case in mind when making his product.
Steel was copper plated, then nickel and / or chrome plating were done, as copper binds very well with steel, and chrome and nickel adhere better to copper than directly to steel.
Copper was the tie layer, so to speak.
'Avoid using the silver in environments that have sulfur products. Sulfur corrodes the surface of silver, forming black sulfide.'
From the link you posted...Corrosionpedia...
What do you mean yield strength? And elongation?
Are you out of your mind?
It is a audio chassis, not a stressed element, who will jump on it?
Or otherwise mechanically stress it in use?
The maker must have worst case in mind when making his product.
Steel was copper plated, then nickel and / or chrome plating were done, as copper binds very well with steel, and chrome and nickel adhere better to copper than directly to steel.
Copper was the tie layer, so to speak.
'Avoid using the silver in environments that have sulfur products. Sulfur corrodes the surface of silver, forming black sulfide.'
From the link you posted...Corrosionpedia...
What do you mean yield strength? And elongation?
Are you out of your mind?
It is a audio chassis, not a stressed element, who will jump on it?
Or otherwise mechanically stress it in use?
Chrome plating stretches 2% that is why it tends to crack and chip when used on some materials.
Corrosion:
Corrosion:
- Pitting Corrosion. ...
- Crevice Corrosion. ...
- Intergranular Corrosion. ...
- Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) ...
- Galvanic Corrosion. ...
I used to live in small spa town in Slovakia, lovely city, famous for sulfur based hot springs. Known even in Maria Teresia times. Beethowen used to visit.
Cures include hot mud bath, hot pools and hot mineral water drinking.
Every silver jewelry develops black surface, reaction with hydrogen sulfate.
Cures include hot mud bath, hot pools and hot mineral water drinking.
Every silver jewelry develops black surface, reaction with hydrogen sulfate.
Zinc Chromate treatment might be enough for most cases in steel.
No idea how it would last in a humid coastal area.
You mean the plating stretches how?
And why does it not come off on car bumpers used outdoors for many years?
No idea how it would last in a humid coastal area.
You mean the plating stretches how?
And why does it not come off on car bumpers used outdoors for many years?
Under those conditions you certainly would get silver sulphate and black surfaces. Possibly even the pitting to qualify as corrosion. So in that case my blanket statement would be wrong. I suspect very few other places would be that bad.
Here the smoke from high sulfur coal burned in Ohio reaches us and affects silver. I do have World War II surplus silver plated BNC connectors. Quite black but still not pitted.
Plating doesn’t stretch copper does. Car bumpers are not copper.
I can answer the Chrome plating bit from a practical point, since I stamp my own cabinet corner protectors and strap handle endcaps for Musical Instrument use.
They are bumped all the time so adhesion must be perfect or they will chip away, and also since they are "outside" often, sometimes in beach settings, etc. , zero pores are allowed.
Also both Nickel (another popular plating) and Chrome are harder than base metal, which needing to be deep stamped must necessarily be some soft malleable low carbon CRS (cold rolled steel) plate, so unless adhesion is perfect, will let hard plating crack where soft base material stretches.
So the very best plating under those circumstances, which was used by Golden Era Fender, Ampeg, etc. , plus yours truly is:
* base: stamping/drawing quality steel
* copper plating, which has 2 advantages: it´s very soft so can absorb differences between soft steel and harder platings
* Nickel which by itself is already good enough as a topcoat and very popular, only problem is that it has micropores all over the place and oxygen/humidity get through, that´s why sometimes in weather exposed Nickel plated metal you find small rust dots here and there; copper base avoids that.
Second "problem" is although it has a very nice colour (silver with a slight bluish tint) it is not as shiny as:
* Chrome, which can (and in fact NEEDS) to be mirror polished, the best surface finish of them all.
"Needs" because just plated Chrome surface is not nice, and to boot has a slightly yellowish hue , both corrected with fine polishing paste and flannel disks.
So well made Chrome plating is best, but it´s expensive, , both because it´s a triple process and it requires manual work (somebody at the polishing wheel) so it´s really justified in car mufflers, bumpers, etc. which are expensive by themselves.
And how do small cheap parts manage to be plated at all?
1) Zinc plating: it has improved along time and now this cheap plating is followed by immersion in a "passivating" bath which improves corrosion resistance big time but also gives it a quite nice silvery bluish hue and improves brightness.
There is also yellowish passivating, which approximates old Cadmium plating look, today forbidden on Ecological grounds.
There is even a special extra brightening bath, if base material is well polished (before plating) it looks very close to Chrome, although hue is bluer.
Of course, you can notice that only if they are side by side.
Today I straight use Bright Zinc plating, period, all others became too expensive.
2) Nickel plating: very nice looking, but more of a matte surface compared to Chrome, specially because it is not customarily polished.
Problem is that to save money many use straight Nickel on steel: looks GOOD but allows those micro-pores of rust to appear (who cares in modern disposable stuff Society?) and can chip away if layer is thick.
3) Straight Chrome plating on steel, no intermediaries.
Looks quite good, hand polishing is replaced by rotating parts in drums with some ground nutshells (not kidding) polishing material mixed with some polishing paste.
Back to the main thread, I think those beautiful Chrome plated chassis get the full treatment: hand polished Chrome, over Copper and Nickel plating.
Given the higher price tags, no big deal.
They are bumped all the time so adhesion must be perfect or they will chip away, and also since they are "outside" often, sometimes in beach settings, etc. , zero pores are allowed.
Also both Nickel (another popular plating) and Chrome are harder than base metal, which needing to be deep stamped must necessarily be some soft malleable low carbon CRS (cold rolled steel) plate, so unless adhesion is perfect, will let hard plating crack where soft base material stretches.
So the very best plating under those circumstances, which was used by Golden Era Fender, Ampeg, etc. , plus yours truly is:
* base: stamping/drawing quality steel
* copper plating, which has 2 advantages: it´s very soft so can absorb differences between soft steel and harder platings
* Nickel which by itself is already good enough as a topcoat and very popular, only problem is that it has micropores all over the place and oxygen/humidity get through, that´s why sometimes in weather exposed Nickel plated metal you find small rust dots here and there; copper base avoids that.
Second "problem" is although it has a very nice colour (silver with a slight bluish tint) it is not as shiny as:
* Chrome, which can (and in fact NEEDS) to be mirror polished, the best surface finish of them all.
"Needs" because just plated Chrome surface is not nice, and to boot has a slightly yellowish hue , both corrected with fine polishing paste and flannel disks.
So well made Chrome plating is best, but it´s expensive, , both because it´s a triple process and it requires manual work (somebody at the polishing wheel) so it´s really justified in car mufflers, bumpers, etc. which are expensive by themselves.
And how do small cheap parts manage to be plated at all?
1) Zinc plating: it has improved along time and now this cheap plating is followed by immersion in a "passivating" bath which improves corrosion resistance big time but also gives it a quite nice silvery bluish hue and improves brightness.
There is also yellowish passivating, which approximates old Cadmium plating look, today forbidden on Ecological grounds.
There is even a special extra brightening bath, if base material is well polished (before plating) it looks very close to Chrome, although hue is bluer.
Of course, you can notice that only if they are side by side.
Today I straight use Bright Zinc plating, period, all others became too expensive.
2) Nickel plating: very nice looking, but more of a matte surface compared to Chrome, specially because it is not customarily polished.
Problem is that to save money many use straight Nickel on steel: looks GOOD but allows those micro-pores of rust to appear (who cares in modern disposable stuff Society?) and can chip away if layer is thick.
3) Straight Chrome plating on steel, no intermediaries.
Looks quite good, hand polishing is replaced by rotating parts in drums with some ground nutshells (not kidding) polishing material mixed with some polishing paste.
Back to the main thread, I think those beautiful Chrome plated chassis get the full treatment: hand polished Chrome, over Copper and Nickel plating.
Given the higher price tags, no big deal.