I woke up today, disappointed has heck 🙁.
For 7 months I've been working on these damn speakers, thrown way to much money at a something I thought I could do. I've built a few pairs of 2 Way designs from others with great success and awesome results.
I decided to embark on what I thought would be my end all Speakers. Surfing Troels site and other I said to myself I can do this. I ordered the drivers, all scanspeak, bought the wood, contacted people on the crossover design. Bought the best I could afford crossover components. Mundorf..etc.
Away I go, picture a Wilson Audio Sasha, with cleaner lines.
Here's what I found about myself, I am a master of tools and tape measure. If I can see it in my head I can build it. Complex angles, driver countersink, placement, cabinet build, using tools etc.
Numbers, specifically DB, crossover, hz-kz, filter network etc. I cannot grasp any of it no matter how hard I try. It's very disappointing. I try and try it's just not getting through.
Madisound at least got me something that sounds ok, but I know there's an sleeping giant waiting to get out. All in all I've probably spent close to 4K if not more. I am satisfied with a great LOOKING speaker, but when the power button goes on my ears not so much.
The reason I'm posting this if your contemplating building speakers, new to the hobby, stick with a proven design, unless you really understand crossover design, don't do it. It's a free world but a huge waste of money.
Now I'm off to buy some sort of active crossover, to hopefully awake my sleeping Giant.
😱
For 7 months I've been working on these damn speakers, thrown way to much money at a something I thought I could do. I've built a few pairs of 2 Way designs from others with great success and awesome results.
I decided to embark on what I thought would be my end all Speakers. Surfing Troels site and other I said to myself I can do this. I ordered the drivers, all scanspeak, bought the wood, contacted people on the crossover design. Bought the best I could afford crossover components. Mundorf..etc.
Away I go, picture a Wilson Audio Sasha, with cleaner lines.
Here's what I found about myself, I am a master of tools and tape measure. If I can see it in my head I can build it. Complex angles, driver countersink, placement, cabinet build, using tools etc.
Numbers, specifically DB, crossover, hz-kz, filter network etc. I cannot grasp any of it no matter how hard I try. It's very disappointing. I try and try it's just not getting through.
Madisound at least got me something that sounds ok, but I know there's an sleeping giant waiting to get out. All in all I've probably spent close to 4K if not more. I am satisfied with a great LOOKING speaker, but when the power button goes on my ears not so much.
The reason I'm posting this if your contemplating building speakers, new to the hobby, stick with a proven design, unless you really understand crossover design, don't do it. It's a free world but a huge waste of money.
Now I'm off to buy some sort of active crossover, to hopefully awake my sleeping Giant.
😱
I think we share your pain.
Yes active can work it's magic, I think in this case it's a wise investment.
Best of luck.
Yes active can work it's magic, I think in this case it's a wise investment.
Best of luck.
In spite of the large increase in squabbling among most discussion forums of the world, I'd still like to believe this is a great place to get some help, and no doubt a place where you are guaranteed to get some opinions. Please show us what you have done; what you have built, and describe what you have now verses what you are lacking.
Unfortunately that is no guarantee either. I am rather like you, but after 40 years of playing around building speakers I decided to ditch the 3 way active system (my wife had trouble using it) and make a pair of Troels Gravesen Jenzen SEAS ERs. Jenzen CA
More than 3 years on, despite upgrading the midrange, and trying different crossover components, wiring, damping, etc, they still sound nowhere near good enough. The HF is poor, to my ears, and there is a sibilance issue I can't resolve. Source and amplification have changed; it is definitely speaker related. 😡
I may cut mu losses and go active again. That's analogue active, BTW, not digital.
Scott,
You absolutely right. I can't post photos from my iPad no matter what I try. And there's nothing I can find like what programs exist on windows for crossover design etc.
I'm going to get my windows laptop back from my buddy asap. I'd really like to share the project with everyone. I know there's some brilliant minds here, and I would love to get their input.
You absolutely right. I can't post photos from my iPad no matter what I try. And there's nothing I can find like what programs exist on windows for crossover design etc.
I'm going to get my windows laptop back from my buddy asap. I'd really like to share the project with everyone. I know there's some brilliant minds here, and I would love to get their input.
Hang in there man. It took me a long time to get my amps built and working right. Scott L is right. Regards, HeyBill
Hey!
Nothing wrong with going active, but you'll still have to measure everything to set your filters correctly, no getting around that I'm afraid.
Maybe you just need good measurements to tweak a few things?
Can you post what you have so far?
E
Nothing wrong with going active, but you'll still have to measure everything to set your filters correctly, no getting around that I'm afraid.
Maybe you just need good measurements to tweak a few things?
Can you post what you have so far?
E
Step One: Learn hos to measure drivers. The only thing active will do for you is make it unnecessary to worry about the driver impedance data. But if you can not get reliable, accurate SPL data it won't matter if the crossover is active or passive.
Step Two: If you are going active, get some software that allows you to construct/design crossover filters using standard elements like shelf, notch, high pass and low pass filter blocks.
Step Three: Implement the filters using a digital crossover such as the miniDSP 2x10 HD.
Step Four: Tickle the DSP setting to fine tune the response.
Step 5: if you don't understand steps 1-4 above, seek profession help.
Step Two: If you are going active, get some software that allows you to construct/design crossover filters using standard elements like shelf, notch, high pass and low pass filter blocks.
Step Three: Implement the filters using a digital crossover such as the miniDSP 2x10 HD.
Step Four: Tickle the DSP setting to fine tune the response.
Step 5: if you don't understand steps 1-4 above, seek profession help.
Awkward, I feel your pain. My design started off the SBA-10 and I emailed Troels and asked if he could recommend a crossover with my selection of drivers and cabinet. He was very responsive and sent me a schematic. I went with it, bought $800 worth of parts and assembled everything exactly.
Dull, lifeless no musicality whatsoever. And I put no blame to him, period. He tried to help and it didn't work. He's not here, cannot see, hear or be physically be involved. He did what he could and I Thank him for that.
I tried some PE crossovers that were much better, but the low end was non-existent.
The Madisound leap is Ok, I can live with it.
I'm an Infinty guy and judge from them, I just modified my design using a Kappa 7 crossover, taking out the R29 tweeter and adding a PE RS28F-4 silk dome, I know this tweeter is good. Sounds like a wall is in front, and the 18W/4531G00 lost all magic.
Back to square one. Sucks.
Dull, lifeless no musicality whatsoever. And I put no blame to him, period. He tried to help and it didn't work. He's not here, cannot see, hear or be physically be involved. He did what he could and I Thank him for that.
I tried some PE crossovers that were much better, but the low end was non-existent.
The Madisound leap is Ok, I can live with it.
I'm an Infinty guy and judge from them, I just modified my design using a Kappa 7 crossover, taking out the R29 tweeter and adding a PE RS28F-4 silk dome, I know this tweeter is good. Sounds like a wall is in front, and the 18W/4531G00 lost all magic.
Back to square one. Sucks.
Sounds like you were probably dancing around the problem. but this could also be a room acoustics issue. We need to see your measurements.
I think it would be much better with pictures and then dive in, I welcome the input. I'll do that as soon as I can.
I'm in Las Vegas, NV.
I'm in Las Vegas, NV.
If by pictures you mean measurements, then yes! 🙂
We'll need to know your list of drivers, as well as your measurement techniques.
Also, before you go and replace everything again... it may be better to use one of your previous crossovers, like Troel's along with an EQ. Assuming the crossover itself measures well, you can use the EQ to sweeten the sound to your taste. THEN you'll know your target curves, or just leave the EQ in. 🙂
Also, what projects have you built you really liked? This will help others figure out your tastes.
We'll need to know your list of drivers, as well as your measurement techniques.
Also, before you go and replace everything again... it may be better to use one of your previous crossovers, like Troel's along with an EQ. Assuming the crossover itself measures well, you can use the EQ to sweeten the sound to your taste. THEN you'll know your target curves, or just leave the EQ in. 🙂
Also, what projects have you built you really liked? This will help others figure out your tastes.
Here's the driver list.
Scanspeak
R2904-700000 tweeter-4
18W/4531G00 midrange-4
26W/8534G00-8
Cabinet
Lower bass 55 liter
Upper tweeter/midbass 21 liter.
I don't know why I bought the Woofer in 8 ohm, I think this was a big mistake.
Originally it was front ported, with a 4 inch. I changed that to a 10 inch passive radiator. It cleans up the look and mimics the Wilson Audio Sasha. And to my ears it cleaned up the bass. Sounds better than the port.
My ears are trained on the infinity Kappa 8 and 80-90 renaissance, in sound terms my ears are trained to it and I like what they do. The 2904 is pretty good. With the leap. But not quite there, I know it's got more life than what it's getting.
I should add that Madisound refused to give me a ported design on the upper midbass/tweeter cabinet, they say it must be sealed.
Scanspeak
R2904-700000 tweeter-4
18W/4531G00 midrange-4
26W/8534G00-8
Cabinet
Lower bass 55 liter
Upper tweeter/midbass 21 liter.
I don't know why I bought the Woofer in 8 ohm, I think this was a big mistake.
Originally it was front ported, with a 4 inch. I changed that to a 10 inch passive radiator. It cleans up the look and mimics the Wilson Audio Sasha. And to my ears it cleaned up the bass. Sounds better than the port.
My ears are trained on the infinity Kappa 8 and 80-90 renaissance, in sound terms my ears are trained to it and I like what they do. The 2904 is pretty good. With the leap. But not quite there, I know it's got more life than what it's getting.
I should add that Madisound refused to give me a ported design on the upper midbass/tweeter cabinet, they say it must be sealed.
Last edited:
The sound you get from speakers is a personal thing.
What one person thinks is good can be painful to other peoples ears.
I have always avoided cross overs and just use full range speakers.
I even have a few folded horns with no crossovers at all in conjunction with a tweeter box.
What one person thinks is good can be painful to other peoples ears.
I have always avoided cross overs and just use full range speakers.
I even have a few folded horns with no crossovers at all in conjunction with a tweeter box.
So long as you are using solid state, you should be fine. The 4 Ohm may have been a better sensitivity match.
The mid will match the woofer better if sealed, typically. Also much smaller space required.
The mid will match the woofer better if sealed, typically. Also much smaller space required.
Modify the downward tilted response to a straight one and you will probably be satisfied. The problem isn't the drivers, it's the voicing.
@bthp: Can you disclose the LEAP filter schematic so one can try to simulate its response in order to better understand the potential issues?
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.