I already own 6 sets of various woofers, midranges, tweeters. I would like to assemble some of these drivers into a 3 or 4 way, preferably with an active crossover. The bottom driver will for sure be the two shiva x2-12 subwoofers I already own. Here are links to drivers I currently already possess.
12 inch subs Diycablepdf/ShivaX2.pdf
(for zaphaudio links you will have to click the link of the speaker name for response charts and harmonic distortion graphs)
8 inch Usher 8137A http://zaphaudio.com/8test/compare.html
6 inch Rs180 http://zaphaudio.com/6.5test/compare.html
3 inch Fountek FR89, I have two pairs Fountek FR89EX 3" Full Range - 8 ohm: Madisound Speaker Store
2 inch dayton RS52 http://zaphaudio.com/smalltest/compare.html
1 inch SB Acoustics SB29RDC http://zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/compare.html
Also 70$ store credit at madisound.com for anything
I already possess 4 2 channel amps of 75w, 30-50w, 35w, and 10w per channel output RMS. I am interested in an active crossver as I already have at least 2 amplfiers of adequate output, with the other two only limited by some noise issues.
I am however open to a passive crossover though I have never made one myself and slopes greater then 12db\octave may be to complex for me to design, as I understand there are interactions with multiple inductors and other complications.
Possible active crossovers:
24 db slopes, 2 way stereo with mono sub out $90 Behringer CX2310 Super-X Pro Crossover 2-Way/3-Way 248-664
this one has delay function on the low band, and two could be purchased for a 4 way stereo setup. It is more however, 140$. Behringer CX3400 Super-X Pro Crossover 3-Way/4-Way 248-668
I am thinking for price\performance ratio a 3 way with the cheaper active crossover will suffice until have more money, and can turn this setup into a home theater\desktop setup. With 24 db slopes and my analyzing of the responses and distortion graphs, I am thinking the SB29RDC's crossed over at 1600-2k with the RS180's, crossed over at whatever sounds best for the subs, likely 80-100 hz.
If anyone has any knowledge, experience or advice they can share about possible setups with these drivers, I would be very appreciative.
I want to spend less then a couple hundred dollars so that I can still have money for a much beefier sub amp. I am going to construct the speaker boxes myself so they can be properly braced, particularly the subs. However I do not own a router and would like to flush mount the drivers and possibly roundover the edges of the box, so some router buying help might be nice to, in terms of how good of one i need for 1" MDF
12 inch subs Diycablepdf/ShivaX2.pdf
(for zaphaudio links you will have to click the link of the speaker name for response charts and harmonic distortion graphs)
8 inch Usher 8137A http://zaphaudio.com/8test/compare.html
6 inch Rs180 http://zaphaudio.com/6.5test/compare.html
3 inch Fountek FR89, I have two pairs Fountek FR89EX 3" Full Range - 8 ohm: Madisound Speaker Store
2 inch dayton RS52 http://zaphaudio.com/smalltest/compare.html
1 inch SB Acoustics SB29RDC http://zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/compare.html
Also 70$ store credit at madisound.com for anything
I already possess 4 2 channel amps of 75w, 30-50w, 35w, and 10w per channel output RMS. I am interested in an active crossver as I already have at least 2 amplfiers of adequate output, with the other two only limited by some noise issues.
I am however open to a passive crossover though I have never made one myself and slopes greater then 12db\octave may be to complex for me to design, as I understand there are interactions with multiple inductors and other complications.
Possible active crossovers:
24 db slopes, 2 way stereo with mono sub out $90 Behringer CX2310 Super-X Pro Crossover 2-Way/3-Way 248-664
this one has delay function on the low band, and two could be purchased for a 4 way stereo setup. It is more however, 140$. Behringer CX3400 Super-X Pro Crossover 3-Way/4-Way 248-668
I am thinking for price\performance ratio a 3 way with the cheaper active crossover will suffice until have more money, and can turn this setup into a home theater\desktop setup. With 24 db slopes and my analyzing of the responses and distortion graphs, I am thinking the SB29RDC's crossed over at 1600-2k with the RS180's, crossed over at whatever sounds best for the subs, likely 80-100 hz.
If anyone has any knowledge, experience or advice they can share about possible setups with these drivers, I would be very appreciative.
I want to spend less then a couple hundred dollars so that I can still have money for a much beefier sub amp. I am going to construct the speaker boxes myself so they can be properly braced, particularly the subs. However I do not own a router and would like to flush mount the drivers and possibly roundover the edges of the box, so some router buying help might be nice to, in terms of how good of one i need for 1" MDF
Last edited:
active x-o multi-amping more or less requires that all of the amplifiers in the bunch have the same gain structure. You might want to look into this and see if your current bunch of amplifiers will mate up well or not. You don't want to turn up the volume and have some of your frequency range increase by 6dB, while another frequency range only increases by 3dB.
I'd use the Ushers, the RS52s, and the SBs in a 3-way.
I'd use the Ushers, the RS52s, and the SBs in a 3-way.
Those Behringer units aren't really suitable for hifi in my experience. Noisy and veeeerrry limited abilities. For about the same $$$ you can get 2 2x4 miniDSPs and get infinitely more adjustability and sound quality.......
I'd use the Ushers, FR89, and a different tweeter. I don't care for the RS52, and the SB29 is awfully robust to be using in a 3-way.
The RS180 and SB29 would mate very well together.
Later,
Wolf
The RS180 and SB29 would mate very well together.
Later,
Wolf
With the FR89 a tweeter is not really a necessity, anything you'd gain would likely be countered by what you loose with the XO.
2 of the RS180 + the FR89 could be used to do a proper MTM in the same vein as this EL166/FF85 build.
dave
True- he wouldn't HAVE to use a tweeter, but off-axis will still suffer without it, and you really don't lose much with a xover. I'm not of the belief that you do.
But- with what he has, I would favor the FR89 as a mid over the RS52.
Later,
Wolf
We'll have to disagree on that. Any XO in the critical band is a problem.
And as to the dispesion, the good small FRs are not that far behind the typical 25-28mm domes and have the advantage of a directivity index that more closely approaches a straight line.
Cross-over at 300-400 hz you get most if the seemlessness of a FR, with the robust bottom of dedicated woofers. And it minimizes most of the evil* inherent in XOs.
*i love quoting Geddes on that one
dave
The large number of successful implementations with 1 or more x-overs in the "critical" range seem to disagree with your blanket statement.
You may call them successful, but i haven't heard many that are REALLY good -- they tend to be missing something, something i have grown quite fond of (and i've heard a lot, including many of my own)
dave
dave
Thank you for the hasty responses, sounds like you all have enough knowledge/experience to guide me towards a setup without it being a complete shot in the dark. To clear things up: when you say you recommend a 3 way with usher, driver x, and driver y, is this excluding or including the 12 inch subwoofers I have? If 3 pairs of drivers is best total for price\performance reasons, then I'd rather have have the subs in the picture, I am far more interested in subbass then high frequency extension. The ushers will not have enough output to satisfy my bass needs with 5mm xmax.
These mini DSP's seem far superior for the price, although I know nothing of them. It would seem that the enclosed miniDSP 2x4 I was looking at had not only a 2 way stereo\4 way mono crossover, but adjustable slopes and a parametric eq as well. the 2x8 was only sold in kit form and for more then the price of two 2x4's. For a 3 or 4 way, would there be any consequences to running Left channel to 1 2x4, and right channel to another 2x4, rather then 1 2x8?
Also, I have never heard this gain structure thing mentioned before. Your saying that at 1 given volume level on my Ipod\PC\ the speakers can be at equal output levels, but with more volume on the ipod\PC, certain amps will increase in volume more then others?
This sounds like it would be a pretty big issue if I am interperting it correctly. How could I find out whether or not my amps had similar enough gain structure?
Another possibility I see now would be to use 1 minidsp for a crossover between sub and a passive crossover system,allowing me to use the better 2 amplifiers I own, to avoid purchasing a second 130$minidps, bringing my costs down hopefully so that I can uprgrade the sub amp when the cash is available. I am quite willing to have my speakers sound temporarily only average if the price is right and particulary if the passive portion could be used in a less demanding application like my desktop speakers. If I have the speakers positioned at my desk always facing my ears directly, could I get away with the FR89's as a tweeter crossed over to the ushers at 500 hz or so?
also, since I have two pairs of the FR89's, would it be better to use all 4, each pair wired to 4 ohms, because of their low sensitivity?
Any recomendations of possible setups with these drivers, passive and\or active is much appreciated. Reccomended slopes for any passive crossovers would be helpful too with my lack of crossover building\desiging experience being taken into account.
Also, BSC. I know its importance, I know it must be accounted for, however I do not have a firm understanding of how. Can the crossover itself account for baffle diffraction losses? Or when someone says that do they simply mean resistors within the crossover?
What is the "critical band"?
These mini DSP's seem far superior for the price, although I know nothing of them. It would seem that the enclosed miniDSP 2x4 I was looking at had not only a 2 way stereo\4 way mono crossover, but adjustable slopes and a parametric eq as well. the 2x8 was only sold in kit form and for more then the price of two 2x4's. For a 3 or 4 way, would there be any consequences to running Left channel to 1 2x4, and right channel to another 2x4, rather then 1 2x8?
Also, I have never heard this gain structure thing mentioned before. Your saying that at 1 given volume level on my Ipod\PC\ the speakers can be at equal output levels, but with more volume on the ipod\PC, certain amps will increase in volume more then others?
This sounds like it would be a pretty big issue if I am interperting it correctly. How could I find out whether or not my amps had similar enough gain structure?
Another possibility I see now would be to use 1 minidsp for a crossover between sub and a passive crossover system,allowing me to use the better 2 amplifiers I own, to avoid purchasing a second 130$minidps, bringing my costs down hopefully so that I can uprgrade the sub amp when the cash is available. I am quite willing to have my speakers sound temporarily only average if the price is right and particulary if the passive portion could be used in a less demanding application like my desktop speakers. If I have the speakers positioned at my desk always facing my ears directly, could I get away with the FR89's as a tweeter crossed over to the ushers at 500 hz or so?
also, since I have two pairs of the FR89's, would it be better to use all 4, each pair wired to 4 ohms, because of their low sensitivity?
Any recomendations of possible setups with these drivers, passive and\or active is much appreciated. Reccomended slopes for any passive crossovers would be helpful too with my lack of crossover building\desiging experience being taken into account.
Also, BSC. I know its importance, I know it must be accounted for, however I do not have a firm understanding of how. Can the crossover itself account for baffle diffraction losses? Or when someone says that do they simply mean resistors within the crossover?
What is the "critical band"?
Yes, it is easy to implement and it will sound good.
Yes but you will have some problems the upper end of the frequency response off-axis (vertical). If you listen on axis it may be okay. You can mount them on a test baffle and try both configurations before you commit.
For the Usher based 3-way, if you think you will need subs to get the extension and listening levels desired, then yes, use the subs with it. That's a personal preference issue that we can't decide for you.
Think of gain structure like what the "multiplication" factor is. Some amplifiers have a higher multiplier. I have no idea how to identify this in an amp, you'll have to do some more research on that front.
Using multiple full range drivers without crossing them and letting them run the full tweeter range, is not ideal IMO. Research the effects of lobing/combing for some insight into why.
I'd personally sell the full range drivers and use the proceeds to pick up another pair of decent tweeters to couple with the RS180s. Should even profit from the matter and have some more funds to put towards x-over components.
Implementing BSC can be done several ways. Ideally speaking, if it's practical to do so, implementing it through driver padding and letting a crossover point do double duty is the lowest cost way to deal with it. The exact amount to implement is a crap shoot unless you have room measurements but most competent designs will just implement ~2-4dB worth of BSC and call it good. Implement more if you intend to have the speakers out free standing away from a wall, and less if they are going to be near a wall or integrated into say, a bookshelf.
Loudspeaker Diffraction Loss and Baffle Step Compensation Circuits
Think of gain structure like what the "multiplication" factor is. Some amplifiers have a higher multiplier. I have no idea how to identify this in an amp, you'll have to do some more research on that front.
Using multiple full range drivers without crossing them and letting them run the full tweeter range, is not ideal IMO. Research the effects of lobing/combing for some insight into why.
I'd personally sell the full range drivers and use the proceeds to pick up another pair of decent tweeters to couple with the RS180s. Should even profit from the matter and have some more funds to put towards x-over components.
Implementing BSC can be done several ways. Ideally speaking, if it's practical to do so, implementing it through driver padding and letting a crossover point do double duty is the lowest cost way to deal with it. The exact amount to implement is a crap shoot unless you have room measurements but most competent designs will just implement ~2-4dB worth of BSC and call it good. Implement more if you intend to have the speakers out free standing away from a wall, and less if they are going to be near a wall or integrated into say, a bookshelf.
Loudspeaker Diffraction Loss and Baffle Step Compensation Circuits
It is likely a sure fire fact that I will require the bass from the 12's. at 150w RMS bridged, but with the amps low-pass enabled, the volume is not quite satisfactory with 85db 1w/1m subs. I estimate another 6db (thus 600w needed!?) would be needed just to keep me temporarily satisfied with the level of bass.
Yes, I was already worried about the off axis response of a 3 inch tweeter, and with my vague understanding of lobing it seems 2 drivers would only make that worse.
I bought these full ranges for $35, and right now they are only selling them on madisound for $50. I Imagine it wouln't be too hard to sell 1 pair of these for $35 to break even, but where would you recommend selling them? Ebay? Post on Forums?
I do like the idea of keeping 1 pair of the FR89's and using them in a desktop 2-way with the usher. I think with proper design would be near impossible to be worse then these standard $20 desktop speakers that I have. My question about this setup would be, what slopes should I use if passive?
Thank you for the link on BSC, I figured what I did not understand was to complex to be explained in a post.
Also, I do have the $70 credit at madisound.com. If any choice of drivers in that price range seems like a better fit with my drivers and demands, let me know.
Also I think its time I bought a mic and software to measure in room-response, so I'm not always guessing. Would this be a good mic for the price? And would using XLR to the 3.5mm jack on my computer work, or do I require a preamp? Also, this mic does not measure phase, should I get one that does, and what price it be?
I think I'm leaning in the direction of wolf_teeths suggestion to use your SB with the dayton and pick up a less expensive set of tweeters to cut in at a higher x-over point for the 3-way. Zaphs testing of it reveals remarkably low distortion, and likely, the ability to handle some pretty low x-over points comfortably.
In that case, If use the SB's with the RS180's, will the rs180's crossover to the 12" subwoofers I have well? I would definitely use an active crossover for this crossover, I like the idea of those miniDSP's with delay, slope adjustment, and a 6-band PEQ. A 4th order high pass at 80 hz with unibox claims they will stay well within xmax at 75w, and be 107db with two drivers. This sounds like enough volume for me based on the claim that a rock concert is 110db. Is their any issues I'm not seeing, like suspension or thermal limits? and could they handle more then 75w if it wasn't enough?
They are rated 60W RMS... Listening levels can exceed this because musical programs are very dynamic, by how much depends on the specific musical program. An 80hz x-over should be fine. Just tune to taste, when it distorts, you know you are either too loud or operating out of linearity, either reduce volume or raise the x-over to correct. WinISD comes up with about the same 75W mark to hit Xmax at 80hz. Keep in mind you'll have a lot of content playing through them at many other frequencies as well so you'll probably never see a full 75W into them at a single frequency (though I suppose it's possible).
Last edited:
The 75w is the limit of my current amplifier. I forgot they were rated 60w RMS, presumably free air, I should hope with the 80-100 hz crossover they could handle the full power of the amp without distortions. I think for cost and simplicity reasons this 3 way with the shiva's, the rs180's, and the SB's will do me best. My next question is then, Is it worth another $125 for an active crossover between the rs180's and the SB's? I realize I have 4 amplifiers, but 2 of them suck and 1 of them could be for my desktop, and is actually only rated for 8 ohms. (none of these 3 speakers are 8 omhs) If I were to attempt playing around with some crossover components for a passive setup, what would be a good frequency to start crossing at, and what slope is likely to be best? Also, the rs180's have a breakup and I have no experience with notch filters to filter it out, but feel I could learn and would love to know.
I am still very curious about the mic thing if anyone knows anything.
Thank you guys so much for your comments, I should have come to diyaudio years ago!
I am still very curious about the mic thing if anyone knows anything.
Thank you guys so much for your comments, I should have come to diyaudio years ago!
The breakup can be dealt with by the x-over alone IMO provided the x-over point is low, which is very doable with those tweeters, I see no reason to concern yourself with any sort of filter on them unless you want to do some fraction of a dB fine tuning stuff further down the road.
Passive crossover design should start with a simulation involving driver response and impedance charts. It won't be perfect because the estimated phase tracking and driver data won't match the real world perfectly, but at least you'd have a starting point.
What baffle width did you have in mind for the build?
Passive crossover design should start with a simulation involving driver response and impedance charts. It won't be perfect because the estimated phase tracking and driver data won't match the real world perfectly, but at least you'd have a starting point.
What baffle width did you have in mind for the build?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.