I'll have to study your Amplifier. So that will take some time reading the page's! But thanks, looks like good inspiration with a lot of details.
Yes, why?
Hypex has lots of user and received good sound quality for passive system.
Scott Hinson's MEH use FA253 to power the 3 way.
Genelec the ones uses DSP + class D for 3 way.
I don't see the problem.
Hi @raymondvanmil , I haven’t tried the state variable crossover, I used this one in the three way configuration with a crossover board in each speaker. https://sound-au.com/project09.htm
I also used Rod’s baffle step compensation circuit, but he doesn’t offer pcbs for that so I used veroboard. Also, since I had such tiny space for the woofers I also used the Linkwitz transform board to extend the bass.
I also used Rod’s baffle step compensation circuit, but he doesn’t offer pcbs for that so I used veroboard. Also, since I had such tiny space for the woofers I also used the Linkwitz transform board to extend the bass.
It's no what I'm looking for for a number of reasons. I do not want an extra analog to digital to analog translation, it's dsp based. It's more expensive. I want the amp in a box not on the speaker. Thanks anyway😉
I've been working with this stuff since the 70's, including live PA where active was the standard 50 years ago. Benefits are clear..the impedance of the load is immaterial, level differences adjusted simply with the turn of an attenuator...and many crossovers were adjustable in crossover frequency...maintaining the filter slope accuracy through crossover frequency.
A more recent facility is the "delay" function on some models...Rane, Berhinger and Samson being just three. This allows you to achieve at least minimum phase condition, classically between horn drivers and mids where the acoustic centres can be displaced by a foot (or two) which wrecks polar tilt and response through the crossover point.
I can tell you, as I have them both...the Rane 23s is a competent analogue device and the Behringer is "as good" at a fraction of the price plus it has CD horn eq at the push of a button.
But!! I also own 2 x Alto Stagedrive Plus dsp loudspeaker management units...no longer made and a few years old. They are cleaner and more transparent than any of the analogue crossovers. The clue is in the specs I guess, 117dB DR, very low distortion...totally silent in operation, more detailed in the mid and treble.
Some may conclude these devices have a "sound of their own" but I put it down to superb channel matching (.1dB steps), accurate filter responses (plus you get 6,12, 18, 24 & 48dB slopes and butterworth, bessel and LR functions)..not that you would ideally use anything else but 4th order LR anyway with it's flat response through crossover and 0deg polar tilt, when acoustic centres are matched. A simple operation, just dial in the required delay as it has the ability to set the actual time delay in micro seconds...
So, in short...go with dsp if you want control over all the parameters required to create an accurate transducer. Complete your set up kit with a laptop, ARTA and a measurement mic. Omnimic is a fantastic programme to, just not free!
Yes, even a Behringer Ultradrive. I designed some monitors a few years back and supplied a BSS 366 omnidrive (£3,000) and a Behringer Ultradrive (£250) set up to drive them. One review was from Hugh RobJohns of Sound on Sound fame...and he was unable to say which was better...but actually marginally preferred the Behringer.
Funny old world, innit
A more recent facility is the "delay" function on some models...Rane, Berhinger and Samson being just three. This allows you to achieve at least minimum phase condition, classically between horn drivers and mids where the acoustic centres can be displaced by a foot (or two) which wrecks polar tilt and response through the crossover point.
I can tell you, as I have them both...the Rane 23s is a competent analogue device and the Behringer is "as good" at a fraction of the price plus it has CD horn eq at the push of a button.
But!! I also own 2 x Alto Stagedrive Plus dsp loudspeaker management units...no longer made and a few years old. They are cleaner and more transparent than any of the analogue crossovers. The clue is in the specs I guess, 117dB DR, very low distortion...totally silent in operation, more detailed in the mid and treble.
Some may conclude these devices have a "sound of their own" but I put it down to superb channel matching (.1dB steps), accurate filter responses (plus you get 6,12, 18, 24 & 48dB slopes and butterworth, bessel and LR functions)..not that you would ideally use anything else but 4th order LR anyway with it's flat response through crossover and 0deg polar tilt, when acoustic centres are matched. A simple operation, just dial in the required delay as it has the ability to set the actual time delay in micro seconds...
So, in short...go with dsp if you want control over all the parameters required to create an accurate transducer. Complete your set up kit with a laptop, ARTA and a measurement mic. Omnimic is a fantastic programme to, just not free!
Yes, even a Behringer Ultradrive. I designed some monitors a few years back and supplied a BSS 366 omnidrive (£3,000) and a Behringer Ultradrive (£250) set up to drive them. One review was from Hugh RobJohns of Sound on Sound fame...and he was unable to say which was better...but actually marginally preferred the Behringer.
Funny old world, innit
Actually is has digital input so you can avoid the AD/DA conversion if you like.
If you want to hit the desired summation by any type of crossover filter solpe the EQ in each band is almost unavoidable. And that's not much option in analog active crossover.
Or you may consider DEQX they offer 8ch out DAC with room correction, crossover but cost a lot.
This is what you normally get when going for a custom design. If you are a beginner, I'd suggest you start with something easier, perhaps a proven design that comes in a kit. Otherwise you risk of not having a top end sound system, or any at all.
Yes and that's also why Hypex FusionAmp is a good choice. Look for the 3-way models, you'll need two for total of 6 drivers. For example FA253 has 2x 250W and 1x 100W for the tweeter. That's fairly good setup, since tweeters don't require much power. The built in DSP is easy to use and it's a good match with the power amp section. It has got a number of digital and analog inputs, all of which are are very good quality. I personally have miniDSP SHD as the preamp and it's digitally hooked to a Hypex FusionAmp that is digitally chained to another FusionAmp. All digital to the last point before power amp and it sounds great. If you want, you can unscrew the boards from the plate and put them into a separate box and just run speaker wires to your boxes. There was at least one thread somewhere here demonstrating it with success.
If you still insist on building your own, I'd suggest you aquire a bunch of MA12070-based amp boards, a dsp board sporting a ADAU1701 and your desired IO-connections, and power source(s) from MeanWell. A great sounding system can be put together with those if you how. And if goes up in smokes, it won't cost more than a few hundred. If you get that rocking, then aim for better, if you still need to.
If you still insist on building your own, I'd suggest you aquire a bunch of MA12070-based amp boards, a dsp board sporting a ADAU1701 and your desired IO-connections, and power source(s) from MeanWell. A great sounding system can be put together with those if you how. And if goes up in smokes, it won't cost more than a few hundred. If you get that rocking, then aim for better, if you still need to.
If you go for 80 watts for woofers you will only need 44 watts for midds and 13 watts for tweeters.
Cheers!
Cheers!
This is a diy forum right? Why do I need to read a sentence like "If you still insist on building your own"??! It's weird, really...
As for the rest of your advice. Everything is welcome. Pushing the plate amp after I said two times I don't want that is also odd.
I've already decided on icepower, got the design pretty balanced out, so it's fine. Some answered helped me think it out.
I do not want only a digital pathway. I own hunderds of cd's and records. Want to be able to spin them. So I need also an analog way in. Got it figured out. Fine tuning the amp.
As for the rest of your advice. Everything is welcome. Pushing the plate amp after I said two times I don't want that is also odd.
I've already decided on icepower, got the design pretty balanced out, so it's fine. Some answered helped me think it out.
I do not want only a digital pathway. I own hunderds of cd's and records. Want to be able to spin them. So I need also an analog way in. Got it figured out. Fine tuning the amp.
For a little more spl you can use the 80AM2 for midds, some cheap 300+ watts amp for woofers and a good 30 watts for tweets.
Dont worry about the power ratings of drivers, since music is not continuous power. Too much power doesnt blow speakers - Too weak amps do.
Cheers!
Dont worry about the power ratings of drivers, since music is not continuous power. Too much power doesnt blow speakers - Too weak amps do.
Cheers!
Because what you're planning to achieve has to do with crossover design.
And the way to do in active analog crossover there's no out of shelf solution.
The analog active crossover you post can match gain, XO point but it can't handle drivers' own response so the summation won't be the desire summation (unless you have a ideal driver of course).
And if you know how to make compensation circuitry already you probably won't ask at the first place.
That being said, I used to use CX3400 from behringer to do analog active crossover and I was happy at the time.
You definitely can use >80W amp for a 80W power handling driver as long as the settings are correct. For home use 70W is probably than enough though.
The link below is passive crossover design process, though it's for passive you still can understand what's the problem just apply LR, BW or any kind of filter without adjusting frequency response at each band.
The 2nd link is talking about power handling.
https://www.youtube.com/live/kUrxAU7f78c?si=kpgw5IzuxbLUF00E
https://www.youtube.com/live/NSFQRWY8iRg?si=hOOeuRFpgYWjN3bZ
Good luck with your experiment
A good Dutch website about audio (diy) design http://www.mh-audio.nl/PC.html Please study how transducers in a loudspeaker work acoustically - baffle step, interferences,xo types, bass box types etc. !
Here is John Reekie's tutorial for multiway settings with minidsp (general principles apply to any active multiway) https://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/tour-of-the-minidsp-2x8/
The previous post by yys310 was right on point. Amplifier power is the most irrelevant issue! Drivers' nominal sensitivity perhaps comes second... when designing active multi-ways.
In my 4-way actives I use minidsp for each driver's eq, delay and xo. I have B&O ICEpower stereo amp modules 125 and 50W for each speaker (yes, classD also for tweeters). At first I installed all four modules in a box, but always blew the fuse when trying to switch it on - too hig current draw! Separate boxes L/R or at least several power switches would help.
For a pair of 3-ways you can use a high-power stereo module for bass and mid in each speaker and a common stereo unit to drive tweeters. Channel separation might not be the best then... Hypex ((Dutch) sells several models of extremely highly valued classD amplifier modules, that measure way much better than ICEpowers... why not use them for bass and mid? Several boxed plug and play models are also available from eg. audiophonics.fr
If you really hate classD for tweeters, the world is full of new and used, cheap and expensive tube or semiconductor amplifiers! By usig dsp or analog xo-preamp all you must do is to set the gain for each. If you are really so sensitive to sound of tweeters and amps, this is ablsolutely the best construction for you!
Raymond, please we are only trying to help you! Be open to suggestions and criticism of your ideas and conceptions.
Here is John Reekie's tutorial for multiway settings with minidsp (general principles apply to any active multiway) https://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/tour-of-the-minidsp-2x8/
The previous post by yys310 was right on point. Amplifier power is the most irrelevant issue! Drivers' nominal sensitivity perhaps comes second... when designing active multi-ways.
In my 4-way actives I use minidsp for each driver's eq, delay and xo. I have B&O ICEpower stereo amp modules 125 and 50W for each speaker (yes, classD also for tweeters). At first I installed all four modules in a box, but always blew the fuse when trying to switch it on - too hig current draw! Separate boxes L/R or at least several power switches would help.
For a pair of 3-ways you can use a high-power stereo module for bass and mid in each speaker and a common stereo unit to drive tweeters. Channel separation might not be the best then... Hypex ((Dutch) sells several models of extremely highly valued classD amplifier modules, that measure way much better than ICEpowers... why not use them for bass and mid? Several boxed plug and play models are also available from eg. audiophonics.fr
If you really hate classD for tweeters, the world is full of new and used, cheap and expensive tube or semiconductor amplifiers! By usig dsp or analog xo-preamp all you must do is to set the gain for each. If you are really so sensitive to sound of tweeters and amps, this is ablsolutely the best construction for you!
Raymond, please we are only trying to help you! Be open to suggestions and criticism of your ideas and conceptions.
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Still Im quite confident that Raymond can build a speaker with awesome sound quality using his current choice of analog (impressive quality from the specs) crossover.
Its not necessary to consider drivers response, baffle step, delay etc. just to build a great speaker. Especially with a nice crossover as the K231.
Some amplifiers measure better than ICE modules, but not to an extent that any difference can be heard. They a plenty good for state of the art speakers.
Considering the above mentioned factors however mostly makes getting there much easier.
Good luck with the project, and enjoy both the proces and the music.
Cheers!
Its not necessary to consider drivers response, baffle step, delay etc. just to build a great speaker. Especially with a nice crossover as the K231.
Some amplifiers measure better than ICE modules, but not to an extent that any difference can be heard. They a plenty good for state of the art speakers.
Considering the above mentioned factors however mostly makes getting there much easier.
Good luck with the project, and enjoy both the proces and the music.
Cheers!
I have 3-way speakers with mismatched sensitivities and mismatched amps and the DSP takes care of the levels (MiniDSP Flex Eight, for what it's worth)
I modified my CD player to create a pre-DAC digital out to feed the MiniDSP. That would not also work for your vinyl.
Be aware that if using DSP with analogue inputs for your vinyl, the DSP will still digitize your signal before performing it's mathematical magic. Depending on your other components, especially your preamp, there may be a conscious decision to make between a DSP with analogue inputs, and a dedicated ADC to feed a DSP with digital only inputs.
I modified my CD player to create a pre-DAC digital out to feed the MiniDSP. That would not also work for your vinyl.
Be aware that if using DSP with analogue inputs for your vinyl, the DSP will still digitize your signal before performing it's mathematical magic. Depending on your other components, especially your preamp, there may be a conscious decision to make between a DSP with analogue inputs, and a dedicated ADC to feed a DSP with digital only inputs.
There is so much missconception here ... let's start with the basics.
Wrong! Speakers can take pretty high peak powers but low sinus/rms power. Especially tweeters. These are not resistors and music is not a sinewave - you have a pretty high CrestFactor. (Wikipedia tells the details about that)
No! You blow up a tweeter immediately with a clipping 70W amp but it can take 150W peaks (whis is how music looks like at high frequencies).
You will HEAR when you overload the drivers and in normal HiFi operation you simply turn down the volume. If you want to savely protect the speakers (DJ and Disco) you need clip and RMS limiters. (One lower for long term/slow and one higher for short term/quick signals) Not a clipping amp ...
As nice at this crossover is - what's the reference level they measurend SNR with? 5,5V?
When I read the datasheet right you get full power with the 80AM2 at 1,4Vrms. So you immediately loose 12dB of this nice SNR when connecting those. And the power amp adds plenty of noise ... SNR of your CHAIN will probably be in the 100dB area when everything is perfect.
I know these ICE power modules, used MiniDSP PWR-ICE125 for a project (had to modify them cause there was to much hum) and also used the amps alone. (You can modify the input impedance so you canput a potentiometer directly in front. Otherwise input capacity is to high)
They are good but not on Hypex level. And everybody with experience will tell you the same.
You think you can get a better sound with an analog crossover + ICE power switching amps - and that's simply wrong thinking!
*) You can't just use textbook crossovers for a speaker!!! That would be easy, everybody could build a great speaker. But that doesn't work! Of course you will get SOME speaker and it will do sound ... but it's a waste of money with material as you want to buy.
You need to measure the drivers in the box you build. You have edge difraction. You have baffle step (4-6dB!). Tuning of midrange and LF drivers. The speakers don't behave like in the datasheet! So you measure the response in your cabinet and then do the crossover. Digital or passive - both will take care of the response IN THE BOX!
*) With a solution like the Hypex DSP + Amplifiers you get a relatively cheap HighEnd system. About 115dB SNR with digital input. So every noise or digital artefact is lower as your threshold of hearing - and that's the magic with these new generation of systems. They are totally silent and don't add sound. And that's why everybody with experience tells you that's the best solution to your project ;-)
And you don't have to buy the plate amps, they sell their DSP and their amps in every configuration you like. The plate is just nice and neat. There is also a DSP from Accuton and plenty more you can use.
But it's hard to top the Hypex Plates in price and performance. These are not cheap subwoofer amps!
*) Use the digital input for your CDs and other digital sources. Use the analog input for your LPs with a preamp. The noise of the LP is way higher as any digital artefacts you get from the A/D conversion and is masking these. That's not always easy to understand. You could read about what dithering does and imagine you do dithering with your analog noise from LP and preamp - just 20-30dB to high 😉
You can also buy a HighEnd A/D converter further down the road when you don't trust the ones of the DSP module. Aou can still fiddle around with the system ;-)
Btw - good drivers you chose. I like these a lot! And the 12" is a gem.
I like and have used SBA drivers too. And my latest two projects were done with Hypex FA 3-way dsp-amps. Ncore amps and potent dsp, analog and digital inputs, possibilty for display and remote control etc. Hypex FA series make loudspeaker construction possible even for me, a noob with zero electrics or engineering education!
https://www.hypex.nl/products/amplifier-families/fusion-amplifier-family/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-new-hypex-fusion-plate-amps.306815/
A SEAS 3-way project with FA253 http://www.seas.no/images/stories/d...gRO4Y_MKIII_ApplicationNote_AssemblyGuide.pdf
https://www.hypex.nl/products/amplifier-families/fusion-amplifier-family/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-new-hypex-fusion-plate-amps.306815/
A SEAS 3-way project with FA253 http://www.seas.no/images/stories/d...gRO4Y_MKIII_ApplicationNote_AssemblyGuide.pdf
Your choice on how you go about it. Fair enough.
The comment of a kit. I took that to relate to the speakers. While drivers can be picked their actual behaviour will be influenced by the cabinet arrangement they are mounted in. There are alternatives. Surely the first step is to simulate this. That allows you to see what your active cross overs need to achieve,
Maybe you realise this maybe you don't so just posting to point this out.
Thanks all for the response and tips. I'm processing. Found another active crossover in my country and just got off the phone with the guy: https://audio-products.nl/shop/lr24-3/ will visit him for additional support and planning. The crossover points can be adjusted, every channel has 0 tot -12 db attenuation.
I bought 4 icepower 80 watt modules crazy cheap for 14 pounds each on ebay from the uk, they are on their way, two for the bass on mono will create 6 channels. So that doesn't hurt if it doesn't work out at all.
@IamJF "You need to measure the drivers in the box you build." I get this. So you're saying measure the drivers one by one without any crossover with a temporary amp and design from there? Interesting.
Still not sure if we talk about the same thing since it's neither "Digital or passive", I'm planning for active analog first. And I do get they will not behave like the data sheet, so we get close from there and measure, finetune after. I don't believe it will be 30db off. I have a range of 12 to work with.
"With a solution like the Hypex DSP + Amplifiers" I understand there are other solutions, maybe ones which are generally better. I want to try this one and needed advice on that. I do not want a dsp solution (I do get you argument on not being able to hear it), maybe later with the 6 channel dac, but only if it's needed. I understand that for people with just a digital source it's a great way to go!
I want an analog path from my record player. I do know digital, Roon, is better, but that's not the point, I'm 52, I have a life long record (and cd) collection. I want to be able to play them. Especially when I use the speakers.
"You will HEAR when you overload the drivers and in normal HiFi operation you simply turn down the volume." Yes I get that. I was just worried about Roon sometimes starting at 100%, but I'm going to sue a pre-amp even for that pathway at first so that's not a fear anymore.
For headphones and one the road digital only is great. I have digital from my workstation to smsl c200 to my stax headphones already.
@SoundRight I might just buy the OmniMic system, or borrow it.
@Juhazi thanks for the reading material! I will..
@AjohnL "The comment of a kit. I took that to relate to the speakers. " There is no Kit. I'm building everything, the speakers, the amp, the active crossover.
Not the pre-amp, eye balling the Violectric DHA V380² for that. Just wanted some tips, some things to think about, read into. I'm in no hurry.
I bought 4 icepower 80 watt modules crazy cheap for 14 pounds each on ebay from the uk, they are on their way, two for the bass on mono will create 6 channels. So that doesn't hurt if it doesn't work out at all.
@IamJF "You need to measure the drivers in the box you build." I get this. So you're saying measure the drivers one by one without any crossover with a temporary amp and design from there? Interesting.
Still not sure if we talk about the same thing since it's neither "Digital or passive", I'm planning for active analog first. And I do get they will not behave like the data sheet, so we get close from there and measure, finetune after. I don't believe it will be 30db off. I have a range of 12 to work with.
"With a solution like the Hypex DSP + Amplifiers" I understand there are other solutions, maybe ones which are generally better. I want to try this one and needed advice on that. I do not want a dsp solution (I do get you argument on not being able to hear it), maybe later with the 6 channel dac, but only if it's needed. I understand that for people with just a digital source it's a great way to go!
I want an analog path from my record player. I do know digital, Roon, is better, but that's not the point, I'm 52, I have a life long record (and cd) collection. I want to be able to play them. Especially when I use the speakers.
"You will HEAR when you overload the drivers and in normal HiFi operation you simply turn down the volume." Yes I get that. I was just worried about Roon sometimes starting at 100%, but I'm going to sue a pre-amp even for that pathway at first so that's not a fear anymore.
For headphones and one the road digital only is great. I have digital from my workstation to smsl c200 to my stax headphones already.
@SoundRight I might just buy the OmniMic system, or borrow it.
@Juhazi thanks for the reading material! I will..
@AjohnL "The comment of a kit. I took that to relate to the speakers. " There is no Kit. I'm building everything, the speakers, the amp, the active crossover.
Not the pre-amp, eye balling the Violectric DHA V380² for that. Just wanted some tips, some things to think about, read into. I'm in no hurry.