I do love me a good B&W mid. The main issue I have with this one is the deep dip around 3 k, signifying a strong radial dampening action by the cone internally. The good part of that is low energy storage and short decay, but the bad part is excess IM up top and usually strong peaking that is difficult to control off axis, plus it won't show up with a short burst of sine sweep.
Don't get me wrong, I do love the continuum cone tech, but they have some issues with low crossover points as well, which is sort of an impractical thing for a larger cone mid to be held back in performance by. I did some listening tests on this same mid and came to the conclusion it wasn't suitable for use with a dome up top for matching power response. Possibly a WG tweeter would work OK.
re: NE180W I won’t release any design where the breakup wanders; let alone 3 wandering breakups. But honestly I don’t think there’s any point recommending NLA drivers. The ship has sailed.
I think the OP queries re: the 15M or 18M is fair. But the resonance is real and whether you like that special effect or not, well only your ears can tell you. People have painstakingly shown that’s it’s not ideal:
Or that it can be eliminated (Purifi).
I try to recommend things that are available.
@profiguy
Have you had a chance to work with the one from the D4? (2022 release with minimalistic spider)
Why go with a wave-guided tweeter when you can go coaxial? The cone serves as the waveguide and the dispersion is symmetric horizontally and vertically.
I’m not at liberty to tell you what Continuum is, or isn’t. And won’t publish measurements til we’re ready.
I think the OP queries re: the 15M or 18M is fair. But the resonance is real and whether you like that special effect or not, well only your ears can tell you. People have painstakingly shown that’s it’s not ideal:
Or that it can be eliminated (Purifi).
I try to recommend things that are available.
@profiguy
Have you had a chance to work with the one from the D4? (2022 release with minimalistic spider)
Why go with a wave-guided tweeter when you can go coaxial? The cone serves as the waveguide and the dispersion is symmetric horizontally and vertically.
I’m not at liberty to tell you what Continuum is, or isn’t. And won’t publish measurements til we’re ready.
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Oh missing the link-
Why cone edge resonance matters-
https://web.archive.org/web/2013021...oheuristics.org/primers/linear_distortion.htm
Why cone edge resonance matters-
https://web.archive.org/web/2013021...oheuristics.org/primers/linear_distortion.htm
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tktran303, wht is the ref of that new white kevlar unit, please ? LF27677 8 ohms ?. They have a lot different according the loudspeaker serie at B&W.
About the coaxial... that is never really pretty when you see the datasheets... certainly not easy for most diyers if no DSP. It is also 90° at best from what I understood (some BC and BMS ?). I like a lot what did 5thelement on his deep DIY BW 801 like, with the little tweeter that swaped the dustcap.... because time align should not be bad... that's not the case with most of the coaxs vmeaning you need to work with FIR and delays. (or I assume with coil pass band on the mid if staying passive... hard and expensive)
About the coaxial... that is never really pretty when you see the datasheets... certainly not easy for most diyers if no DSP. It is also 90° at best from what I understood (some BC and BMS ?). I like a lot what did 5thelement on his deep DIY BW 801 like, with the little tweeter that swaped the dustcap.... because time align should not be bad... that's not the case with most of the coaxs vmeaning you need to work with FIR and delays. (or I assume with coil pass band on the mid if staying passive... hard and expensive)
@tktran303 - I agree the breakup can be audible and aggravate IMD behavior if severe. My NE180s didn't exhibit this breakup shown above. Only a slight edge reflection around 1k.
Did not have a chance to play with D4 mid drivers yet. Mine were from 2nd gen continuum in LCR series with double neo motor. I also have N800 mids with yellow aramide / kevlar. Those have very stiff spider. Also sound very nice. The double neos are very efficient around 98 dB / 2.8V. Have contemplated a coax with LCR mids that have removable phase plug. Could fit some LPG Ti domes in there. No issues with IMD if LP xover is high enough.
I usually don't talk much about older NLA drivers, but some are so good they can't be ignored. The Focal 5K013 was a fab driver. Very sad its gone. Same for the Focal Access 10As and.larger Audioms. What nice drivers.
I ignored the NE series cone drivers for a long time. When I finally heard some small MTM 2 ways with NE149s and CAT378s playing Yoyo Ma on cello, I was floored at harmonic richness, clarity and resolution of these little drivers. The speakers sounded like I was sitting in front of vintage Quad ESLs. They were driven by modded Mcintosh 275s. It was the best midrange I've heard in many many years from any smaller speaker. Hearing a Michael Brecker sax solo and a few minutes of Chick Corea's piano on Return to Forever was just as impressive. Whatever cone material composition Vifa / Peerless used on these, I dont have much clue, but the music these things make is deeply impressive. They went though the trouble of using a Ti VC former and that wide open frame. This driver lineup is IMO a step ahead of the SS revelators in terms of cone material. The motor may be a little fancier on the SS, but the cones aren't as good based on the sound.
Did not have a chance to play with D4 mid drivers yet. Mine were from 2nd gen continuum in LCR series with double neo motor. I also have N800 mids with yellow aramide / kevlar. Those have very stiff spider. Also sound very nice. The double neos are very efficient around 98 dB / 2.8V. Have contemplated a coax with LCR mids that have removable phase plug. Could fit some LPG Ti domes in there. No issues with IMD if LP xover is high enough.
I usually don't talk much about older NLA drivers, but some are so good they can't be ignored. The Focal 5K013 was a fab driver. Very sad its gone. Same for the Focal Access 10As and.larger Audioms. What nice drivers.
I ignored the NE series cone drivers for a long time. When I finally heard some small MTM 2 ways with NE149s and CAT378s playing Yoyo Ma on cello, I was floored at harmonic richness, clarity and resolution of these little drivers. The speakers sounded like I was sitting in front of vintage Quad ESLs. They were driven by modded Mcintosh 275s. It was the best midrange I've heard in many many years from any smaller speaker. Hearing a Michael Brecker sax solo and a few minutes of Chick Corea's piano on Return to Forever was just as impressive. Whatever cone material composition Vifa / Peerless used on these, I dont have much clue, but the music these things make is deeply impressive. They went though the trouble of using a Ti VC former and that wide open frame. This driver lineup is IMO a step ahead of the SS revelators in terms of cone material. The motor may be a little fancier on the SS, but the cones aren't as good based on the sound.
The Revelator and Illimunator are surely exceptional sound-wise in their low end till uper bass/low mid relative to their size I was said by a valuable designer here, but I expect the NE serie to be better in the medium area where finally the 123 & 149 were targetted. Good measurements from Hifi Compass show that.
Interesting topic on the surround. I know Focal has put a lot of work into the controlling the resonance with the W cone surround. The Scan-Speak 18M/4631T Revelator 7" Midrange - 4 ohm has ridges too but uses a coated foam surround.
In my experience, the "bigger the better". I tend to pick larger drivers and use high crossover points. In theory there are problems with doing this, like beaming and breakup, but in listening tests this approach sounds the most "real" to my ears. Vocals produced by a 7" driver just sound more present and natural than produced by a 5.5 driver.
In terms of "presence" and "naturalness" I think it's ultimately a question of dynamic range.
There's only one thing better than a 7" mid, and that's two 7" mids... LOL
An acoustic kick drum is 16-22". The most common size being around 18-20". And we use single 8" woofers?
The OP ideal to use twin 10" is the right move...
There's only one thing better than a 7" mid, and that's two 7" mids... LOL
An acoustic kick drum is 16-22". The most common size being around 18-20". And we use single 8" woofers?
The OP ideal to use twin 10" is the right move...
I’m not the most scientific person but I’m old and have listened to a ton of speakers and I like 7” mids. Two of my favorites are the Usher 8948a, and the 8” b&c 8pe21. Beautiful and natural not the last word in hyper detail but you can listen all day.
For a medium size midrange driver I would recommend the PHL https://www.phlaudio.com/fileadmin/user_upload/phl_audio/1120_SpecSheet.pdf or the 16 Ohm version for line array https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/speaker-phl-audio-1130-16-ohm-6-5-inch.html
Awesome sound and look at the Mms to Bl ratio...10g Mms with 12.7 Bl = 0.787 - Wow!
I heard this PD 10 inch in a soffit mounted active studio monitor with a Beyma TPL/ horn above 1.2 KHz... Just amazing life like dynamics.
For a large midrange driver I would recommend the astonishing Precision Devices 10 inch https://www.precision-devices.com/products/all-products/pd-103nr1/ Just look at the spec:
Frequency response : 180 Hz to 2,400 Hz +/- 1.5 dB!
Great 31g Mms with Bl of 18 giving a super fast (for a 10 inch driver) ratio of 1.7
Unlimited power handling... 700 watts true AES with 2,800 watts AES peaks !!!
Low Qts, perfect in 15 litre sealed box.
Awesome sound and look at the Mms to Bl ratio...10g Mms with 12.7 Bl = 0.787 - Wow!
I heard this PD 10 inch in a soffit mounted active studio monitor with a Beyma TPL/ horn above 1.2 KHz... Just amazing life like dynamics.
For a large midrange driver I would recommend the astonishing Precision Devices 10 inch https://www.precision-devices.com/products/all-products/pd-103nr1/ Just look at the spec:
Frequency response : 180 Hz to 2,400 Hz +/- 1.5 dB!
Great 31g Mms with Bl of 18 giving a super fast (for a 10 inch driver) ratio of 1.7
Unlimited power handling... 700 watts true AES with 2,800 watts AES peaks !!!
Low Qts, perfect in 15 litre sealed box.
They are not equivalent from cut-off areas point of view, first because their different size but also from their spl and THD profiles... bandwidth use will not be the same with each of them. All is about what you have below and above, no?
one can certainly add : 6ND430 ; 18H56 13 06 SDK ; PHL 930 , of course among others.
The NE149W-08 I chose ask some painfull trade offs for lambda designers as I am, as the use of 2 per chanel to have efficienty enough and soundstage hassle due to the layout of two drivers in the mid. But the price is low, in North America, soon NLA, though.
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nice driver indeed. I looked into PD.103NR1 and also 18Sound 10NDA610, another 10" high-sensitivity midrange, and didn't pull the trigger mostly concerned with potential beaming/dispersion mismatch and limited info I found online. Interestingly I have Beyma TPL-150H above, in an active system, currently crossing at 1.3kHz and 1.2 could be easily done. It's great to read you heard this PD 10" with TPL and found them to be a good match!
Also find the Precision Devices PD.103NR1 super interesting, and calculated around 1500 hz before beaming.
But also diden´t find much to read about it on the net, so alittle suspicious and around 265 $ but "big Thornann" sales them so maby okey.
Today i use 2 x 8 inch Aerogel-cone Audax HM210Z10 99 dB in MTM, from 340 hz up to 1850 hz with success. ( but 97-98-ish is more correct for them)
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@jawen
We seem to share a some criteria. I was running 2x 8PE21 in MTM up until recently, 300-1100Hz. The original goal was high sensitivity to drive them with SET, but buying the SET for mids has been postponed while the dust settles on the new GaN amps and I was driving them with 75Wpc class A/B KT88 amp, so moved to one mid which can provide more than enough SPL/dynamics. I still have to come to a conclusion about MTM vs MT in my setup. Yet this discussion had me thinking again about midranges.
BTW, on paper 2x 8" mids in MTM with a large tweeter like TPL-150H should suffer from dispersion issues. But haven't perceived that to be a significant issue.
We seem to share a some criteria. I was running 2x 8PE21 in MTM up until recently, 300-1100Hz. The original goal was high sensitivity to drive them with SET, but buying the SET for mids has been postponed while the dust settles on the new GaN amps and I was driving them with 75Wpc class A/B KT88 amp, so moved to one mid which can provide more than enough SPL/dynamics. I still have to come to a conclusion about MTM vs MT in my setup. Yet this discussion had me thinking again about midranges.
BTW, on paper 2x 8" mids in MTM with a large tweeter like TPL-150H should suffer from dispersion issues. But haven't perceived that to be a significant issue.
Yeah 😍 i just LOWE big dynamics and opportunities for real high SPL.
Is it trickey to mount that octagonal 8PE21 driver?...I always mill in the drivers so its flat at the baffle. ( seems hard with a octagonal 😉)
And SET can bee real nice in sound but i prefer big Class A solid-state with plenty of power, even if older Mcintosh and Pass Labs was fantastic especially in the midrange.
But Class-D amps maby are the future.
https://gansystems.com/newsroom/500w-heatsinkless-audio-amplifier-from-axign/
Ivé notice that driving the 2 x 8 inch midrange as high "as possible" ( without exaggeration) gives a really big advantage in sound presence, so i would never use them as low as 12-13-14-1500 hz.
Think its the big cone-area and low MMS that make "magic" happend, and yesterday i test my 2x8 inch MTM midrange up to 3K. (even if i know it´s going to beam över 2.063 hz)
It was fun and real interesting, and the music revealed things in my "old" song that i haven´t notice before.
After a while it was a little to much "in your face" tendency, and i felt my ears telling me it was enough at that level.
So now il will test to go as high as possible without reaching that"in your face" tendency line, but all tweaks takes alot of time to do so you have to be stubburn.
Best regards John.
Are we still on this course?
What are your design goals?
(I was wondering where this thread was heading, apart from sharing experiences and dreams, pretty valid in themselves of course)