I am a new user, I need some advise for my project of 3\4 way speaker. I need to keep the best part of the pro side and the top class consumer side (dynamic, punchy, but also open, neutral and smooth sound)
I consider 2 possibility:
- 4 ways
woofer: eminence kappapro 15" lf side firing
(increase saf
), according with Branwell and Erik Tangen (almighty subwoofer), see: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38420&highlight=
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1014/
behringer dcx xo (150 Hz)
mid-low: beyma 8lw30
(very low distortion, right price, see here http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/producto.php ) or phl 2460
behringer dcx xo (800-1300 Hz)
mid-hi: accuton c44-6 very low distortion, good numbers.
passive xo (3500-4000 Hz low order)
tweeter: accuton c12-6
- second solution, 3 ways
woofer: eminence kappapro 15" lf side firing
behringer dcx (130 Hz)
Midwoofer: phl 2460 or 1220 (wich is best?)
behringer dcx (1800 Hz)
Tweeter: morel supreme 110
I consider 2 possibility:
- 4 ways
woofer: eminence kappapro 15" lf side firing
(increase saf
), according with Branwell and Erik Tangen (almighty subwoofer), see: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38420&highlight=http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1014/
behringer dcx xo (150 Hz)
mid-low: beyma 8lw30
(very low distortion, right price, see here http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/producto.php ) or phl 2460
behringer dcx xo (800-1300 Hz)
mid-hi: accuton c44-6 very low distortion, good numbers.
passive xo (3500-4000 Hz low order)
tweeter: accuton c12-6
- second solution, 3 ways
woofer: eminence kappapro 15" lf side firing
behringer dcx (130 Hz)
Midwoofer: phl 2460 or 1220 (wich is best?)
behringer dcx (1800 Hz)
Tweeter: morel supreme 110
Besides... since I have to equalize the woofer (eminence kappa pro 15 lf) to reach 30-35 Hz flat and I don't need very hi spl I am thinking if a sealed box (with some equalization) could produce a better and cleaner sound that a corresponding vented one. I would exclude ebs because I remember that someone (I don' remember who) said that ebs have a dull sound compared to smaller boxes.
Frankx said:I am a new user, I need some advise for my project of 3\4 way speaker. I need to keep the best part of the pro side and the top class consumer side (dynamic, punchy, but also open, neutral and smooth sound)
I consider 2 possibility:
- 4 ways
woofer: eminence kappapro 15" lf side firing
(increase saf
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1014/
behringer dcx xo (150 Hz)
mid-low: beyma 8lw30
(very low distortion, right price, see here http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/producto.php ) or phl 2460
behringer dcx xo (800-1300 Hz)
mid-hi: accuton c44-6 very low distortion, good numbers.
passive xo (3500-4000 Hz low order)
tweeter: accuton c12-6
- second solution, 3 ways
woofer: eminence kappapro 15" lf side firing
behringer dcx (130 Hz)
Midwoofer: phl 2460 or 1220 (wich is best?)
behringer dcx (1800 Hz)
Tweeter: morel supreme 110
EBS must have lower quality,because it has more bass extension.However I use one,and like it alot.(jbl2226)
Bear in mind that this isnt a high efficency system if it relies on normal morel tweeters. Be careful using prosound components for hifi use,its best to use ones that are proven by others.
Consider 2way
1" horn + 12" mid
3way
1" horn + 6" cone mid horn + 12" midbass
www.geocities.com/xobt
Thank you Mike for the advise
I need to use pro sound drivers for the mid bass just because after some project with hifi driver I have discovered that pro sound driver have a punchier and better sound. The jbl is a very good driver but a bit too expensive! the eminence 15 kappa pro lf have a good reputation and low price.
About the efficency I don't relly need hi efficency since I have some hi power amp: I just need that kind of sound (pro).
I am a bit afraid from pro sound tweeter because in my experience they sound veeery dynamic but too harsh.
Do you have experience with some pro 8" driver that have a very good sound in the 150-1000 Hz area? I just know a bit the beyma 8" and the phl 8"
I need to use pro sound drivers for the mid bass just because after some project with hifi driver I have discovered that pro sound driver have a punchier and better sound. The jbl is a very good driver but a bit too expensive! the eminence 15 kappa pro lf have a good reputation and low price.
About the efficency I don't relly need hi efficency since I have some hi power amp: I just need that kind of sound (pro).
I am a bit afraid from pro sound tweeter because in my experience they sound veeery dynamic but too harsh.
Do you have experience with some pro 8" driver that have a very good sound in the 150-1000 Hz area? I just know a bit the beyma 8" and the phl 8"
I understand but there is a lot of people who think different:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38420&highlight=
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1014/
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46720&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=2
and a lot more.
I listen to a lot of rock and electronic music (but not just this) and I have some years of experience in audiophile loudspeaker but in all that time I have discovered just few very good sounding system with that music (ex. some audio phisik and very big kharma). Besides I know a lot of very good sounding big pro monitors. So... that's why I need to try a project with pro audio drivers.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38420&highlight=
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1014/
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46720&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=2
and a lot more.
I listen to a lot of rock and electronic music (but not just this) and I have some years of experience in audiophile loudspeaker but in all that time I have discovered just few very good sounding system with that music (ex. some audio phisik and very big kharma). Besides I know a lot of very good sounding big pro monitors. So... that's why I need to try a project with pro audio drivers.
If you like the 'pro' sound then you'll do fine. I've just sold on my 'audiophile' scanspeak stuff to build 4-way pro stuff as I prefer it.
I'm using beyma 380CD/ TD250 horn with Precision devices 10" PD107 mid, beyma LX60 15" midbass, with planned labsubs below.(am using 3x sealed tempests at present - these will go under the labs from 10- 32Hz eventually))
xo's: labs to 80HZ, LX60 15's 80 - 300Hz, PD107's 300 - 1200Hz, 380CD's 1200Hz and above.
If you don't fancy horns then you could try a high output ribbon between a pair of 8" mids in MTM, with a 12" or 15" midbass and 2x18" below... The ribbons would need to play fairly low though...
Most of the high efficiency stuff is mentioned in 'horn' type searches btw - Although a search on JBL, Beyma or PHL will give some (hours of) good reading.
Good luck with your project
,
Rob
I'm using beyma 380CD/ TD250 horn with Precision devices 10" PD107 mid, beyma LX60 15" midbass, with planned labsubs below.(am using 3x sealed tempests at present - these will go under the labs from 10- 32Hz eventually))
xo's: labs to 80HZ, LX60 15's 80 - 300Hz, PD107's 300 - 1200Hz, 380CD's 1200Hz and above.
If you don't fancy horns then you could try a high output ribbon between a pair of 8" mids in MTM, with a 12" or 15" midbass and 2x18" below... The ribbons would need to play fairly low though...
Most of the high efficiency stuff is mentioned in 'horn' type searches btw - Although a search on JBL, Beyma or PHL will give some (hours of) good reading.
Good luck with your project
,Rob
Frankx,
Don't blame the driver. Blame the designer of the loudspeaker system. There are good and bad sounding units for both Pro and Home. How they are used is a whole other matter. You say you have a DCX and plenty power. Your wood working skills certainly are not lacking (from your pics). I have only one question. How large is your room? If the answer is - large enough to place the speakers 4' (1.3m) or so out from the rear walls, then it is time to leave the sound of music coming out of a box behind. Its time to enter the world of open baffles (no box). Your budget seems ok for a wide variety of drivers. You already have the electronics.
Look here first.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
Do searches for "open baffles" here and elsewhere to see the many designs. Here is mine. I would not have hesitated for a second to buy a Pro unit IF it offered superior performance. The combined cost of the drivers would be about the same as your examples - assuming you can get them.
If you really desire to use Pro drivers, you still could. There are plenty good ones that would work. These Ciares look good for subs (12.00 SW & 15.00 SW).
http://www.ciare.com/oem/
But it doesn't seem like you would have to. Best of luck.
Cheers,
AJ
p.s. I just bought a DCX to fool with while I work on my stand alone FIR computer
Don't blame the driver. Blame the designer of the loudspeaker system. There are good and bad sounding units for both Pro and Home. How they are used is a whole other matter. You say you have a DCX and plenty power. Your wood working skills certainly are not lacking (from your pics). I have only one question. How large is your room? If the answer is - large enough to place the speakers 4' (1.3m) or so out from the rear walls, then it is time to leave the sound of music coming out of a box behind. Its time to enter the world of open baffles (no box). Your budget seems ok for a wide variety of drivers. You already have the electronics.
Look here first.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
Do searches for "open baffles" here and elsewhere to see the many designs. Here is mine. I would not have hesitated for a second to buy a Pro unit IF it offered superior performance. The combined cost of the drivers would be about the same as your examples - assuming you can get them.
If you really desire to use Pro drivers, you still could. There are plenty good ones that would work. These Ciares look good for subs (12.00 SW & 15.00 SW).
http://www.ciare.com/oem/
But it doesn't seem like you would have to. Best of luck.
Cheers,
AJ
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
p.s. I just bought a DCX to fool with while I work on my stand alone FIR computer
I have a four-way mono system with pro drivers, and I find this relatively large and higher-than-average-efficiency system makes sound with an effortlessness that my smaller home-hifi equipment can only dream of.
I made a box which could be used ported or sealed with my woofer [200Hz LR24 lowpass x-over] so that I could listen to both types and I have developed a preference for the sealed box. I did try eq but found it unnecessary in this room.
I made a box which could be used ported or sealed with my woofer [200Hz LR24 lowpass x-over] so that I could listen to both types and I have developed a preference for the sealed box. I did try eq but found it unnecessary in this room.
I quite like some pro kit. It's a myth that it's all bomb-proof and sounds duff, and like all myths, is therefore worth ignoring. Bomb-proof perhaps. Poor sounding? I do believe a certain company by the name of ATC might take issue with that! To name but one.
Open baffle would be a good way forward (no pun intended)
Best
Scott
Open baffle would be a good way forward (no pun intended)
Best
Scott
(sorry for my english)
Hi Frankx,
Torino........., have you listened the Apocalipse Now of B.A.?
About your project I think it is basically correct. The 4 way is interesting
but normally the c44-c12 is "married" with Al or ceramic woofer.
I think if you can sacrifice a bit of SPL with a 6"+12" you will have more accurate sound, expecially with severe piano recordings like " the Koln concert" and similar . But it is only my personal opinion
regards
Hi Frankx,
Torino........., have you listened the Apocalipse Now of B.A.?
About your project I think it is basically correct. The 4 way is interesting
but normally the c44-c12 is "married" with Al or ceramic woofer.
I think if you can sacrifice a bit of SPL with a 6"+12" you will have more accurate sound, expecially with severe piano recordings like " the Koln concert" and similar . But it is only my personal opinion
regards
Thank you for all the replies!
Rob:
You suggest a very interesting project but for me a bit too complicate and expensive! :-( am a bit scared to try totally new tipology of driver and enclosures since I don't have any experience in ribbons and open baffles.
Bzdang:
I think I will follow your suggest to test ported and sealed enclosures but I suspect that the eminence kpro15 (and similar woofers) cannot reach 40 Hz (the minimum for me) in the sealed enclosures. I wonder if I equalize the sealed to reach the 35-40 Hz what happen to the "punchness" of the sound. (sorry for my english!).
Rob:
You suggest a very interesting project but for me a bit too complicate and expensive! :-( am a bit scared to try totally new tipology of driver and enclosures since I don't have any experience in ribbons and open baffles.
Bzdang:
I think I will follow your suggest to test ported and sealed enclosures but I suspect that the eminence kpro15 (and similar woofers) cannot reach 40 Hz (the minimum for me) in the sealed enclosures. I wonder if I equalize the sealed to reach the 35-40 Hz what happen to the "punchness" of the sound. (sorry for my english!).
AJinFLA said:Frankx,
Don't blame the driver. Blame the designer of the loudspeaker system. There are good and bad sounding units for both Pro and Home. How they are used is a whole other matter. You say you have a DCX and plenty power. Your wood working skills certainly are not lacking (from your pics). I have only one question. How large is your room? If the answer is - large enough to place the speakers 4' (1.3m) or so out from the rear walls, then it is time to leave the sound of music coming out of a box behind. Its time to enter the world of open baffles (no box). Your budget seems ok for a wide variety of drivers. You already have the electronics.
Look here first.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
Do searches for "open baffles" here and elsewhere to see the many designs. Here is mine. I would not have hesitated for a second to buy a Pro unit IF it offered superior performance. The combined cost of the drivers would be about the same as your examples - assuming you can get them.
If you really desire to use Pro drivers, you still could. There are plenty good ones that would work. These Ciares look good for subs (12.00 SW & 15.00 SW).
http://www.ciare.com/oem/
But it doesn't seem like you would have to. Best of luck.
Cheers,
AJ
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
p.s. I just bought a DCX to fool with while I work on my stand alone FIR computer
AJinFLA
Wery nice speakers!!
My room is 3x5 Meters, the speakers are on the longer side. I don't know if is large enough to place the speakers 4' out from the rear walls. Also I have to care about my wife
hehe... (that's why side firing woofer!).As I said before I am a bit afraid to build a totally new tipe of enclosure like the open baffle (I have no experience with that type of speaker) isn't true that open baffles needs veeery big woofers to reach a good levels in the low end?
Can you tell me the difference in the bass sound between open baffle and ported design?
Cheers
Frankx, during my design phase I simulated in WinISD and found that the size for an acceptable ported box made also a sealed box with Qtc of 0.52 and good group delay. The predicted response curve rolled off gently with -3dB at around 60Hz, but these are not 4" woofers, they have much more authority to move air at low frequencies, and the room will help. I think you will find the sealed box low output is suprisingly good.
Thank you Scott
----------------
Inertial, Thank you for the advise
I Know that ceramic drivers sounds better together but some guys (like tony Gee) says that are not so dynamic, I know some kharma design that sounds very very good but that have a 12" woofer. A very dynamic loudspeaker is what I am looking for! So I would try to mate the accuracy of the ceramic mid-hi with the authority of the pro audio low end.
Recently I am more for a simplier 3ways with 15 kappa pro (side firing), phl 1220 or 2460 and morel supreme.
If you see the distortion graph of the phl you can appreciate that the distortion of the accuton 7" isn't lower than the phl!!! so isn't true that those pro audio stuff are so bad! (I hope...)
----------------
inertial said:(sorry for my english)
Hi Frankx,
Torino........., have you listened the Apocalipse Now of B.A.?
Sorry what you mean with B.A. ?
About your project I think it is basically correct. The 4 way is interesting
but normally the c44-c12 is "married" with Al or ceramic woofer.
I think if you can sacrifice a bit of SPL with a 6"+12" you will have more accurate sound, expecially with severe piano recordings like " the Koln concert" and similar . But it is only my personal opinion
regards
Inertial, Thank you for the advise
I Know that ceramic drivers sounds better together but some guys (like tony Gee) says that are not so dynamic, I know some kharma design that sounds very very good but that have a 12" woofer. A very dynamic loudspeaker is what I am looking for! So I would try to mate the accuracy of the ceramic mid-hi with the authority of the pro audio low end.
Recently I am more for a simplier 3ways with 15 kappa pro (side firing), phl 1220 or 2460 and morel supreme.
If you see the distortion graph of the phl you can appreciate that the distortion of the accuton 7" isn't lower than the phl!!! so isn't true that those pro audio stuff are so bad! (I hope...)
Attachments
Hi Frankx,
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/proto.htm
The dimensions are approx. 26"Hx14"Wx12"D. Probably MUCH smaller than the enclosure needed for a KappaPro 15"! The drivers are 4x12" http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/297-608.pdf
You will not hear clearer more natural bass than this. At first listen you think something is wrong - because you are used to hearing a "box". It is upon further listening that you realize the superior naturalness of the bass. The boom,slam,etc is gone. Again, you will not have heard clearer cleaner more natural bass. You really have to hear it to understand. But don't just take it from me. I have owned many, many speakers, boxes, planars, etc. Look at the list this gentleman has owned. Listen to his comments. I agree 100%. http://www.doddsy.net/steve6_009.htm
Now, unfortunately Frankx, I think a LARGE part of your problem is your room! 3m means that your speakers are probably close to if not touching your rear wall! With a monopole speaker like yours, you have a huge imbalance in the power response already. The bass range probably exceeds your treble by 15db - or more. You are also sitting "near" field from your speakers, probably about 2m or so. Not always good. The dipole would certainly be superior here. Less boom. Remember with a compact cabinet like mine, you can slide the speakers out say 0.8m into the room, give it a little distance from the rear wall, when listening. Then push them back against the wall when done, or when the wife yells at you (dipoles tend to be MUCH lighter, because you have no box!). The bass will be plenty! You would probably also have to deaden the wall a bit behind the mids. Its hard to say. The problem is integration of your mids/highs at such close range. Again I suspect this is part of your problem. the nice thing is that you have a DCX. This will certainly help. Perhaps you should consider a coaxial driver. They integrate extremely well at close range because of their point source nature. There are some very nice Pro models. I hesitate to recommend them because I only have first hand experience with a few. These I have heard http://www.radianaudio.com/products/ceiling/8_ceiling.php4?viewT=ceiling&viewC=8_ceiling&viewI= sound very nice. They don't have the absolute refinement of the SEAS/Vifa that I use, but still quite dynamic. Maybe some other members here can comment on these http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/producto.php
There are also some nice ceiling units (YES) like these http://www.kef.com/products/ciseries/technical/ci200qr_tec.html
that can be used OB.
Or these SA-15R http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteReferenceProduct/RModels/InWall/SA_Specs.htm
can't say what will be available for you. Again perhaps other members can suggest others.
I hope I at least gave you some ideas to consider.
Gotta run.
Cheers & good luck
AJ
btw, just to be clear, I'm suggesting ceiling speakers because they are very suitable for open baffle, since they are intended for infinite baffle scenarios.
A closed or ported box can be just as difficult to design as an open baffle. If you read the Linkwitz website he goes into great detail on how to do this.
Yes and No. You need drivers capable of large excursion. But my woofer frames are essentialy these.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/proto.htm
The dimensions are approx. 26"Hx14"Wx12"D. Probably MUCH smaller than the enclosure needed for a KappaPro 15"! The drivers are 4x12" http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/297-608.pdf
You will not hear clearer more natural bass than this. At first listen you think something is wrong - because you are used to hearing a "box". It is upon further listening that you realize the superior naturalness of the bass. The boom,slam,etc is gone. Again, you will not have heard clearer cleaner more natural bass. You really have to hear it to understand. But don't just take it from me. I have owned many, many speakers, boxes, planars, etc. Look at the list this gentleman has owned. Listen to his comments. I agree 100%. http://www.doddsy.net/steve6_009.htm
Now, unfortunately Frankx, I think a LARGE part of your problem is your room! 3m means that your speakers are probably close to if not touching your rear wall! With a monopole speaker like yours, you have a huge imbalance in the power response already. The bass range probably exceeds your treble by 15db - or more. You are also sitting "near" field from your speakers, probably about 2m or so. Not always good. The dipole would certainly be superior here. Less boom. Remember with a compact cabinet like mine, you can slide the speakers out say 0.8m into the room, give it a little distance from the rear wall, when listening. Then push them back against the wall when done, or when the wife yells at you (dipoles tend to be MUCH lighter, because you have no box!). The bass will be plenty! You would probably also have to deaden the wall a bit behind the mids. Its hard to say. The problem is integration of your mids/highs at such close range. Again I suspect this is part of your problem. the nice thing is that you have a DCX. This will certainly help. Perhaps you should consider a coaxial driver. They integrate extremely well at close range because of their point source nature. There are some very nice Pro models. I hesitate to recommend them because I only have first hand experience with a few. These I have heard http://www.radianaudio.com/products/ceiling/8_ceiling.php4?viewT=ceiling&viewC=8_ceiling&viewI= sound very nice. They don't have the absolute refinement of the SEAS/Vifa that I use, but still quite dynamic. Maybe some other members here can comment on these http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/producto.php
There are also some nice ceiling units (YES) like these http://www.kef.com/products/ciseries/technical/ci200qr_tec.html
that can be used OB.
Or these SA-15R http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteReferenceProduct/RModels/InWall/SA_Specs.htm
can't say what will be available for you. Again perhaps other members can suggest others.
I hope I at least gave you some ideas to consider.
Gotta run.
Cheers & good luck
AJ
btw, just to be clear, I'm suggesting ceiling speakers because they are very suitable for open baffle, since they are intended for infinite baffle scenarios.
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