What would be nice is a “mid equivalent” to the Lab12.
A modest price driver, good design I believe, and a supercharger to the music.
Surely someone’s done *something like that??
A modest price driver, good design I believe, and a supercharger to the music.
Surely someone’s done *something like that??
Re: 2482 at low XO
IME, this depends mostly on the horn, and I'd be expecting to EQ anyway.
That said, I have yet to use the 2482s I have. Maybe they do have problems.
I have used an Altec 291K driver down to 300Hz with no problems. It takes a big horn, but it works fine.
exurbia said:
IME, this depends mostly on the horn, and I'd be expecting to EQ anyway.
That said, I have yet to use the 2482s I have. Maybe they do have problems.
I have used an Altec 291K driver down to 300Hz with no problems. It takes a big horn, but it works fine.
BTW, you'll probably get enthusiastic participation regarding horns over at the Audio Asylum.
They have a high efficiency speaker forum.
You've got lots of reading to do... That notebook I loaned you is nearly all horn articles.
Here is a really good starting reference:
http://melhuish.org/audio/horn.html
They have a high efficiency speaker forum.
You've got lots of reading to do... That notebook I loaned you is nearly all horn articles.
Here is a really good starting reference:
http://melhuish.org/audio/horn.html
While not being "modest" in price, I believe this is the combination you are looking for:
BMS 4540ND (only) from Assistance Audio (stated by a stateside reseller as the best sounding of the BMS line regardless of price).
http://www.assistanceaudio.com/02_bms.html
Center coupled, with possibly the dust cap removed (cut to expose the BMS driver), to this driver:
McCauley 6326CX from SpeakerCity.
http://www.mccauleysound.com/component_overview.cfm?ID=114
The combination shoud be at least as good as anything mentioned (but perhaps a bit different). The right crossover and eq. filter might be difficult to create, but still - a LOT easier than making a good front horn.
BMS 4540ND (only) from Assistance Audio (stated by a stateside reseller as the best sounding of the BMS line regardless of price).
http://www.assistanceaudio.com/02_bms.html
Center coupled, with possibly the dust cap removed (cut to expose the BMS driver), to this driver:
McCauley 6326CX from SpeakerCity.
http://www.mccauleysound.com/component_overview.cfm?ID=114
The combination shoud be at least as good as anything mentioned (but perhaps a bit different). The right crossover and eq. filter might be difficult to create, but still - a LOT easier than making a good front horn.
Horn vs OB
rick 57
Here's a small horn with big sound. Maybe someone from down your way has tried the Cowan Horn Sub Jr, or one like it?
http://diy.cowanaudio.com/
This would work out for a 300 - 400 Hz crossover. and would give you an exceptional bass/midbass in a fairly small enclosure along with a couple of options to load it, and still get an Audax mid or cheaper horn. This would surpass any reflex or sealed enclosure in quality, and would be cheaper than a stack of 15's for OB bass.
exurbia -- I have 4 of the Audax PRO170 but not all on the same baffle! That's a lot of firepower. How did you match the quad up in the bass and treble?
Hey John! Nice coke bottle. Oh, I meant horn! Red hot!
I wrote...
Tim
rick 57
Here's a small horn with big sound. Maybe someone from down your way has tried the Cowan Horn Sub Jr, or one like it?
http://diy.cowanaudio.com/
This would work out for a 300 - 400 Hz crossover. and would give you an exceptional bass/midbass in a fairly small enclosure along with a couple of options to load it, and still get an Audax mid or cheaper horn. This would surpass any reflex or sealed enclosure in quality, and would be cheaper than a stack of 15's for OB bass.
exurbia -- I have 4 of the Audax PRO170 but not all on the same baffle! That's a lot of firepower. How did you match the quad up in the bass and treble?
Hey John! Nice coke bottle. Oh, I meant horn! Red hot!
I wrote...
Tim
alternative driver
Hi rick
I would try the 2445j if you can get it. The 16r diaphragm allows it to have the back chamber modified, you can do the mod with the 8r dia but the power handling is compromised. With a maximum input of 120 watts (modified back chamber) these are simply astonishing drivers.
War in karratha would be great, it might liven the place up. we could declare war on those people from across the tasman, you know the ones that talk funny.😉
Hi rick
I would try the 2445j if you can get it. The 16r diaphragm allows it to have the back chamber modified, you can do the mod with the 8r dia but the power handling is compromised. With a maximum input of 120 watts (modified back chamber) these are simply astonishing drivers.
War in karratha would be great, it might liven the place up. we could declare war on those people from across the tasman, you know the ones that talk funny.😉
altec vs jbl
Jeff,
The altecs have a brilliant suspension, this allows them to go that low. years ago we used Mantaray horns with great success the throw was amazing. I did use them in the house but the rays were just too big. with jbl 2482's the sound hardened right up, the 2445's just sing, if you can find a pair at the right price i'll do the mod for free. Just send the back house and i'll machine it for you.
Jeff,
The altecs have a brilliant suspension, this allows them to go that low. years ago we used Mantaray horns with great success the throw was amazing. I did use them in the house but the rays were just too big. with jbl 2482's the sound hardened right up, the 2445's just sing, if you can find a pair at the right price i'll do the mod for free. Just send the back house and i'll machine it for you.
Hi,
Hey, this thread is gone a long way while I was sleeping.
My turn.
I am convinced that a rounded mouth with less diffraction can help a lot with smoothing the curve, and probably a throat curved along the lines of the Peavey Quadratic, or Geddes waveguide can also help on that regard.
Miguel mentero
Hey, this thread is gone a long way while I was sleeping.
My turn.
No anechoic measurements done, but from memory, this was some +6dB in room at 600Hz.
There is a lot of horn contribution to the irregularities. The open baffle measurements show a rising curve, but not that irregular.
In this particular configuration, I found the sound a bit honky, specially on male voices.
I am convinced that a rounded mouth with less diffraction can help a lot with smoothing the curve, and probably a throat curved along the lines of the Peavey Quadratic, or Geddes waveguide can also help on that regard.
Miguel mentero
Jeff
AA occurred to me too, I’ve posted the same question at the Audio Asylum.
The 2482 I’ve read cover 300 Hz to 6k. Hopefully the bottom end is not marginal. What range were you expecting from them?
I’m making my way through melhuish.org/audio/horn.html Haven’t yet seen a good prospect for this range. Yes, I should dig through the Mai heritage archives. 😉
If the budget were stretched, what $ would you need to pay on eBay for a reasonable compression driver that would go comfortablt to 250 Hz, not necessarily JBL, eg Altec 291K?
Geddes makes big claims for his waveguide. But IIRC it’s not out yet.
Brett
I’m looking for 300 Hz –1.5 khz; the 4540ND covers 1.2 khz-30 khz.
The 4591 (200 hz-9 khz) is the closest to my need.
The McCauley 6326CX - oddly, SpeakerCity for this driver do not quote any of Qts, Qes or Qms.
* Anyone
What do you lose, if you don’t use a compression driver?
I see the PHL 3820 & 3840 should cover the range.
Any good options from Selenium?
I know William Cowan uses the Unity Horn - it seems they’d be great, but too dear, and I think with the demise of Lambda no longer available.
Were you suggesting it may be possible to use other drivers - Audax or others, in the same Unity horn shape & configuration?? That would be great! Are drawings available??
Why are horn drivers so *dear – because they’re pro? Maybe my budget is semi-pro, 2nd hand or Asian.
It seems there is no list of horn drivers (as there is for all other driver types, at LSDG).
The 2445J looks like it drops rapidly about 650 Hz; 500 is the minimum JBL quote.
The JBL 2445 would do perfectly. - inc horn $US 500 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=47092&item=3769892367&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V - how much better might it be than a PHL 3451 $US 166?
Miguel &/ or Swedish Chef
The B&C drivers sound a good option.
I like the benefit of the faraday ring in the 8 inch B&C 8PE21.
But while www.cadaudio.dk quotes it’s sensitivity as 98 dB, Parts Express quote 94.
Yet while cadaudio quote Xmax as 2 mm, PE quote 5 mm. Different models??
Good discussion guys! I may just jump from the OB camp!
AA occurred to me too, I’ve posted the same question at the Audio Asylum.
The 2482 I’ve read cover 300 Hz to 6k. Hopefully the bottom end is not marginal. What range were you expecting from them?
I’m making my way through melhuish.org/audio/horn.html Haven’t yet seen a good prospect for this range. Yes, I should dig through the Mai heritage archives. 😉
If the budget were stretched, what $ would you need to pay on eBay for a reasonable compression driver that would go comfortablt to 250 Hz, not necessarily JBL, eg Altec 291K?
Geddes makes big claims for his waveguide. But IIRC it’s not out yet.
Brett
I’m looking for 300 Hz –1.5 khz; the 4540ND covers 1.2 khz-30 khz.
The 4591 (200 hz-9 khz) is the closest to my need.
The McCauley 6326CX - oddly, SpeakerCity for this driver do not quote any of Qts, Qes or Qms.
* Anyone
What do you lose, if you don’t use a compression driver?
I see the PHL 3820 & 3840 should cover the range.
Any good options from Selenium?
I know William Cowan uses the Unity Horn - it seems they’d be great, but too dear, and I think with the demise of Lambda no longer available.
Were you suggesting it may be possible to use other drivers - Audax or others, in the same Unity horn shape & configuration?? That would be great! Are drawings available??
Why are horn drivers so *dear – because they’re pro? Maybe my budget is semi-pro, 2nd hand or Asian.
It seems there is no list of horn drivers (as there is for all other driver types, at LSDG).
The 2445J looks like it drops rapidly about 650 Hz; 500 is the minimum JBL quote.
The JBL 2445 would do perfectly. - inc horn $US 500 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=47092&item=3769892367&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V - how much better might it be than a PHL 3451 $US 166?
Miguel &/ or Swedish Chef
The B&C drivers sound a good option.
I like the benefit of the faraday ring in the 8 inch B&C 8PE21.
But while www.cadaudio.dk quotes it’s sensitivity as 98 dB, Parts Express quote 94.
Yet while cadaudio quote Xmax as 2 mm, PE quote 5 mm. Different models??
Good discussion guys! I may just jump from the OB camp!
how Compression drivers work
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3544&page=2
ahh
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3544&page=2
ahh
BLECCH
Edgar horn yuk!!! with a wanky little dynaudio p**s weak soft dome. sounds allright with a real driver.
Edgar horn yuk!!! with a wanky little dynaudio p**s weak soft dome. sounds allright with a real driver.
Re: edgar horn
You could also try something like this
I'd like to get a better Beyma or B&C to try it in something similar.
Again, depends on the driver. Some of them may also 'work' down there, but how good do they actually sound?jeff mai said:
Could I see the conical too please?
John, what did it actually sound and/or measure like down that low? Did you do any mods to the driver as the resonance is a lot higher than that iirc.John Sheerin said:
I normally split at 4-500Hz using a 10/12/15 down lower and a CD above.rick57 said:
You could also try something like this
I'd like to get a better Beyma or B&C to try it in something similar.
I'm not sure you'll get a good 400Hz out of it and there have been comments on toher forums about it not working real well at the bottom end either.Tim Moorman said:
I have a few 2445 and (new) 2446 laying around. Could I take you up on that too?exurbia said:
I'm going to the US next year, and one of my first stops in Ca will be to see Bruce and listen to the Titan. If it sounds as good as I hope it will, I'm going to order a full rig. And use my Khorns as rears.rick57 said:
Hi,
This is what the manufacturer thinks about it. 98dB/w/m and Xmax plus minus 1mm.
http://www.bcspeakers.com/compproducts/speakers/8pe21.htm
Don't worry, the cone will move very little in a horn.
Miguel
This is what the manufacturer thinks about it. 98dB/w/m and Xmax plus minus 1mm.
http://www.bcspeakers.com/compproducts/speakers/8pe21.htm
Don't worry, the cone will move very little in a horn.
Miguel
edgarhorn
sorry jeff i should have qualified that . i am referring to the tractrix mid, the rectangular one. it is not the horn itself that is crud, it is those awful dogaudio domes. i built some awhile ago with proper drivers they were ok. but maybe not Hi-Fi
sorry jeff i should have qualified that . i am referring to the tractrix mid, the rectangular one. it is not the horn itself that is crud, it is those awful dogaudio domes. i built some awhile ago with proper drivers they were ok. but maybe not Hi-Fi
Re: Re: edgar horn
It sounded fine - about the same as an EVM12L on the same horn (obviously different throats). I did not play it real loud because of where I was living at the time. It measured flat from about 100hz to 5khz. It was down 6dB at 90hz, iirc.
Also, phenolic drivers sound great - if you have a JBL 2482 or a 2470 and it sounds bad, you're doing something wrong. Some of the old RCA's that have phenolic diaphragms also sound great - obviously the 1428, but there is another one as well that I've heard that has a pepper shaker phase plug and regular rim-driven diaphragm that sounded wonderful on a large conical horn.
Brett said:
It sounded fine - about the same as an EVM12L on the same horn (obviously different throats). I did not play it real loud because of where I was living at the time. It measured flat from about 100hz to 5khz. It was down 6dB at 90hz, iirc.
Also, phenolic drivers sound great - if you have a JBL 2482 or a 2470 and it sounds bad, you're doing something wrong. Some of the old RCA's that have phenolic diaphragms also sound great - obviously the 1428, but there is another one as well that I've heard that has a pepper shaker phase plug and regular rim-driven diaphragm that sounded wonderful on a large conical horn.
Oh, I forgot this part - it can be desirable to have the driver's resonance between the high and low cutoff of the horn, so the fact that the JBL CD I used had a resonance of 270hz doesn't mean it won't work down to 90hz (or lower on an appropriate horn). As I said before, the issue you run into is limited excursion and thus limited output level at low frequencies - it's not that you can't get response from the driver that low. You just need to evaluate how much output you can cleanly get at the lowest frequency you want to use the driver / horn combo to as part of your design procedure.
Interesting John, and food for thought.John Sheerin said:
My fave drivers are the BMS 4590 and (Beyma CP380M) which I've been using for a couple of years on a variety of horns and are phenolic diaphramed. I might try a bigger trax for the BMS when I get home and pop them on top of the Khorns.
I'd still like to build a set of the big Unity's you have on your site, but not until I get Praxis and more spare time.
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