First timer trying to build a 3 way, please critique and advise. I am planning to use these two together, mid and tweeter.
Tweeter Fountek NeoCD1.0 True Ribbon Tweeter $49.8/driver
Dayton RS52N-8 2" Dome Midrange $38.83/driver
Bass
Both tweeter and mid-range are self contained so I should assume it wouldn't need an enclosure?
Thanks for helping!!
Tweeter Fountek NeoCD1.0 True Ribbon Tweeter $49.8/driver
Really good horizontal dispersion but not so vertically. 4ohm, and 90db sensitivity. Pretty flat from 3.500hz - 10,000hz then raise a bit after that.
Not sure if this thing needs an enclosure? But why would it since the back is a plastic box?
Not sure if this thing needs an enclosure? But why would it since the back is a plastic box?
Dayton RS52N-8 2" Dome Midrange $38.83/driver
It is 8ohm, Problem to match with above?? Real flat curve from 500Hz-3000hz, can stretch to 3500hz but suffer a bit lost dispersion. Sensitivity at 89.4db matches well with above.
Perhaps m-t-m this with the above so both would be 4 ohm
Perhaps m-t-m this with the above so both would be 4 ohm
Bass
I will be using sub for below 100Hz, so bass needed to cover from 100hz-500hz. Any recommendations?
Both tweeter and mid-range are self contained so I should assume it wouldn't need an enclosure?
Thanks for helping!!
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Running the NeoCD1.0 down to 3500 Hz, much less 3000 Hz, is going to be rather tough on it as it really needs to be crossed higher, at least 4000 Hz and higher better. I used the RS52 in a 3-way crossed to a Neo CD3.0 at 3.8 kHz and a pair of RS180s crossed at 750 Hz to the RS52 in a TMWW arrangement. In a another 3-way, TMW design, I used a NeoCD1.0 crossed to a Morel MDM55 at 4.8 kHz, and an SS 8" woofer crossed to the MDM55 at 750 Hz. Neither of these dome midranges nor either of the Fountek ribbon tweeters need separate enclosures.
Paul
Paul
Thanks Paul, first timer, so lots of anxiety lol.
I double checked RS52N-8's spec, looked like it could stretch to 3800hz or even 4000hz. May suffer 2-3db at 30deg off axis. I am assuming that's how it works.
Since NEO has decent vertical dispersion, any merit to do the mtm config? Or that may just be waste of effort?
This thread has some useful tips. I take it the spec is still the same
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/104284-modding-dayton-rs52.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/104284-modding-dayton-rs52.html
Without any problem.. my first idea was 3k5, end up with 4k5..
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/302250-dayton-audio-rs225-8_rs52an-8_amt2-4-a.html
Measured without xover and front panel..
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After more reading, it seems like I have alternatives:
Tweeters,
In addition to Fountek's ribbon NeoCD1.0, these are alternatives:
1, Dayton Audio PT2C-8 Planar $49
2. HiVi RT1C-A Planar $40
3. HiVi RT2C-A Planar $79
4. HiVi RT1.3WE
Mid-range,
In addition to Dayton RS52N-8, their counterpart at Morel got lots praises:
1. Morel EM 1308 2-1/8" Dome
2. Morel MDM 55 2-1/8" Soft Dome
So it was like ribbon vs planar, and soft dome vs metal dome.
By the way, system will be used in a room 15ft x 16ft and 9ft ceiling, sitting about 11 ft from the speakers.
toffee, please read these "classics" too, by the Zaph!
Zaph|Audio -test of ribbon tweeters
Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5 - a 3-way with RS52 midrange
You will get warned about vertical lobing with high xo, but don't be afraid! Crossing at 4-4,5k will give very nice sound for piano and cymbals. Just use LR4 acoustic slopes!
Zaph|Audio -test of ribbon tweeters
Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5 - a 3-way with RS52 midrange
You will get warned about vertical lobing with high xo, but don't be afraid! Crossing at 4-4,5k will give very nice sound for piano and cymbals. Just use LR4 acoustic slopes!
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Dayton RS52N-8 is the best dome midrange currently on the market..
Find Hobby 5/2009 for interesting comparison..
https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/datenbler-mainmenu-40/mittelt-mainmenu-60/337-morel-mdm-55
??-????????
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That is a personal opinion. I know many fall all over the RS52 because of how they measure, but that doesn't mean they don't sound like poop.
I think they sound like poop.
The EM1308 is incredible! ...and the MDM55 is not far behind it. The HiVi DMN-a and DMB-a I like more than the RS52 as well.
This, just like yours, is a subjective opinion.
Later,
Wolf
This is not personal opinion, measured distorsion is at least 3 times better that any other dome midrange..
RS52AN have 0.1% between 800Hz and 3k5, first peak on 4k is only 0.3%.. Morel EM1308 and MD55 don't fall below 0.3%..
Although it's a little frustrating that most ribbon tweeters are a bit directional due to the diaphram dimensions, these Fountek 1.5's are better than most, and sound very good when used right. Below about 1kHZ the size of the baffle board becomes important due to what's called "baffle step response". The baffle affects the way the wavefronts are propagated. Keeping a crossover out of the frequency range where the ear is most sensitive, and where the majority of stereo imaging effect happens (approx. 800HZ - 6kHZ) is a good idea.
In my recent speaker projects I've been going to the trouble of making a great little minimally resonant subenclosure for the 3 inch Peerless TG9FD1008 ($21 ea) or the Vifa TC9FD1008 ($12 ea) drivers, which I've come to love. I use a 4 inch inner diameter ABS plastic pipe about 8 inches long, from home Depot (plumbing dept.) and fill the back half with thick felt, foam rubber and regular synthetic fiberglass. The back end is sealed by the rear of the cabinet. The TG is slightly flatter than the TC in the high end. Both brands got bought by Tympani. They do a great job from about 400HZ to 14kHZ, and have no severe resonance or abrupt drop-off at any frequency, which makes them easier to crossover. They can do a great job of handling from 400HZ to 8kHZ, where the ribbon can take over at the high end, and a 6, 8 10 or 12 inch driver could do the low end below 400HZ. If you also used a 4 pole active crossover ahead of power amps, you would have a very high-end system.
Also, make sure you have good tone controls in your preamp, Baxandall is best, 4 section is what I designed and built and totally believe in. Those who have no tone controls at all are fools for several reasons. Below 400HZ I'd go for Peerless Nomex cone drivers, which I have and am very impressed by (about $60 each for the 6.5 inch). Midrange domes can sound pretty good, but usually have a very limited range of usable frequency. Then the crossover needs to be high order and very accurate.
In my latest speaker, it's just a Peerless TG9 three inch mid/tweeter and an old 8 inch Kevlar woofer in a sealed enclosure, with X=480HZ 4 pole active crossover, and it sounds VERY good to my ears. I also pump up the low bass with active EQ so the acoustic output is relatively flat down to 30HZ. I've built dozens of high end speaker systems over the decades, and this one competes well with any of them, and it's so relatively simple. Oddly, I don't miss the energy above 15kHZ at all. The 3 inch drivers acting as tweeters get directional at the high end, but they do it gradually, and I don't mind at all.
Buying or building an active crossover may seem like a bigger project than you wanted, but getting a passive crossover to be accurate is actually very difficult. Actives are predictable and can easily be high order (4 pole). Passives have to deal with the changing impedances of most drivers (check out some impedance graphs), and any adjustment of amplitude will throw off everything else since everything in a passive crossover is interactive. Plus once you've got a chassis and power supply for the active crossover, it's not real hard to add the low bass active EQ, which IMO makes a huge improvement. I hope this helps. Probably a bit much for a first timer but who knows. You might like my hobby website: ephaseaudio.com
In my recent speaker projects I've been going to the trouble of making a great little minimally resonant subenclosure for the 3 inch Peerless TG9FD1008 ($21 ea) or the Vifa TC9FD1008 ($12 ea) drivers, which I've come to love. I use a 4 inch inner diameter ABS plastic pipe about 8 inches long, from home Depot (plumbing dept.) and fill the back half with thick felt, foam rubber and regular synthetic fiberglass. The back end is sealed by the rear of the cabinet. The TG is slightly flatter than the TC in the high end. Both brands got bought by Tympani. They do a great job from about 400HZ to 14kHZ, and have no severe resonance or abrupt drop-off at any frequency, which makes them easier to crossover. They can do a great job of handling from 400HZ to 8kHZ, where the ribbon can take over at the high end, and a 6, 8 10 or 12 inch driver could do the low end below 400HZ. If you also used a 4 pole active crossover ahead of power amps, you would have a very high-end system.
Also, make sure you have good tone controls in your preamp, Baxandall is best, 4 section is what I designed and built and totally believe in. Those who have no tone controls at all are fools for several reasons. Below 400HZ I'd go for Peerless Nomex cone drivers, which I have and am very impressed by (about $60 each for the 6.5 inch). Midrange domes can sound pretty good, but usually have a very limited range of usable frequency. Then the crossover needs to be high order and very accurate.
In my latest speaker, it's just a Peerless TG9 three inch mid/tweeter and an old 8 inch Kevlar woofer in a sealed enclosure, with X=480HZ 4 pole active crossover, and it sounds VERY good to my ears. I also pump up the low bass with active EQ so the acoustic output is relatively flat down to 30HZ. I've built dozens of high end speaker systems over the decades, and this one competes well with any of them, and it's so relatively simple. Oddly, I don't miss the energy above 15kHZ at all. The 3 inch drivers acting as tweeters get directional at the high end, but they do it gradually, and I don't mind at all.
Buying or building an active crossover may seem like a bigger project than you wanted, but getting a passive crossover to be accurate is actually very difficult. Actives are predictable and can easily be high order (4 pole). Passives have to deal with the changing impedances of most drivers (check out some impedance graphs), and any adjustment of amplitude will throw off everything else since everything in a passive crossover is interactive. Plus once you've got a chassis and power supply for the active crossover, it's not real hard to add the low bass active EQ, which IMO makes a huge improvement. I hope this helps. Probably a bit much for a first timer but who knows. You might like my hobby website: ephaseaudio.com
Yes- he did, but I don't always agree with what he says. People should be able to form their own opinions by their own research and not just swallow/regurgitate what another professes. I don't like the DQ25 either.
V- just because it measures well does not mean is sounds good. A driver can have vanishingly low HD and still sound like crap.
I've heard and used drivers with ultralow HD. I feel there is a point of diminishing returns at some point down the scale. Anything that measures under 1% HD in a system I've found to be low enough and usually high enough resolution. Some low HD drivers sound bland and overdamped, and have no life in the music they produce. The Morel has the life that I listen for in music. FWIW, I use Usher 9845 in one of my reference pairs, and it is a gem. I'm not talking about 'livelyness' or a distorted or splashy character, but a non-sterile result that oozes realism.
Measurements are not everything. They are only part of the puzzle.
Later,
Wolf
PS- Lou Corragio (RIP) from over on PETT at a time or another stated there is an unofficial group of people called 'The RS52 ain't $#!+ club', and the unofficial members know who they are. The fact that there are several people who ascribe to this club as members means it isn't the be all and end all to everyone.
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