When I proposed the topic, I thought that you would first tell me about the loudspeakers, that they are not well chosen.
Or about the separate speakers cabinet that is not a good approach.
If that didn't happen then it's good and I can continue.
I know that MDF is better and it will be after I learn how to make good speakers.
Now is PAL ,for the material of the speakers, my wife received 2 new wardrobes, good deal for each.
I still have a few pieces .
The response of the loudspeakers in the speakers cabinet can only be obtained in special well-proofed rooms, isn't it?
With Umik1 and REW or DATS v3 or CLIO pocket...
For an amateur it is possible ?
Your support means a lot, I didn't even expect to receive so much, thank you for all.
I saved all the files you worked on and I see important changes for medium and bass.
Here for me is an interesting article
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/phase-vs.-polarity/
Phase could affect the sound more than I thought .
Or about the separate speakers cabinet that is not a good approach.
If that didn't happen then it's good and I can continue.
I know that MDF is better and it will be after I learn how to make good speakers.
Now is PAL ,for the material of the speakers, my wife received 2 new wardrobes, good deal for each.
I still have a few pieces .
The response of the loudspeakers in the speakers cabinet can only be obtained in special well-proofed rooms, isn't it?
With Umik1 and REW or DATS v3 or CLIO pocket...
For an amateur it is possible ?
Your support means a lot, I didn't even expect to receive so much, thank you for all.
I saved all the files you worked on and I see important changes for medium and bass.
Here for me is an interesting article
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/phase-vs.-polarity/
Phase could affect the sound more than I thought .
So that's how it should be, thank you for both.
Yes interesting, but not written about designing speakers. When you use your simulator you want to see phase plotted so you can see how the drivers are working together at the crossover.
It's not an optimised combination of drivers, and the woofer i don't like. But you can still make something decent out of it. Idem with the cabinets, i would do it different, but it can work quiet decent.
What i mainly wanted to show, is that the crossover was not good, and you can with what you supplied of data (measured or not) can do a lot better, and also try to phase align them in the crossover. Therefor you need (with this setup) 2nd order filters and a third order lowpass on the mid. It's your try on a 3 way, so i was not discussing driver or box choice, only the crossover.
I would probally use SB acoustic drivers for this, something like an SB26ADC tweeter, and SB17LFC35-8 mid and a SB34NRX75-6 woofer. Those don't cost that much but are way higher quality drivers i think, that are a lot easier to work with. And other brands also got a lot better drivers for simiar money... I would also do the tweeter and mid in one cabinet, and the woofer in a seperate, so you can put the tweeter as close to the mid as possible (it's better). Between the mid and woofer the distance is less an issue.
But again, with what you got you still can make quiet decent speakers if you do the crossover right. Measure it (read the manual of REW for how, it's free) in the cabinets, and work from that. The more precise your measurements are, the more precise you can design your crossover.
What i mainly wanted to show, is that the crossover was not good, and you can with what you supplied of data (measured or not) can do a lot better, and also try to phase align them in the crossover. Therefor you need (with this setup) 2nd order filters and a third order lowpass on the mid. It's your try on a 3 way, so i was not discussing driver or box choice, only the crossover.
I would probally use SB acoustic drivers for this, something like an SB26ADC tweeter, and SB17LFC35-8 mid and a SB34NRX75-6 woofer. Those don't cost that much but are way higher quality drivers i think, that are a lot easier to work with. And other brands also got a lot better drivers for simiar money... I would also do the tweeter and mid in one cabinet, and the woofer in a seperate, so you can put the tweeter as close to the mid as possible (it's better). Between the mid and woofer the distance is less an issue.
But again, with what you got you still can make quiet decent speakers if you do the crossover right. Measure it (read the manual of REW for how, it's free) in the cabinets, and work from that. The more precise your measurements are, the more precise you can design your crossover.
Honestly, I didn't choose the speakers, this is what I got after several attempts.
w130s and DT25N they were for a small 11L speaker, then I changed my mind and bought CiareHWB200.
Your friendly analysis is correct and help me make a decision, thank you.
Ciare has an impressive magnet, I hope that after the break-in it will not disappoint me.
Now 12" woofer is too much for WAF, I will stay with this configuration .
In separate cabinet I could easily align the speaker coils for time alignment.
I don't think there will be a big difference if tw and w130s are flush mounted in the same box.
Ciare moved a little higher ,glue, sound absorber and then I focus on filters.
w130s and DT25N they were for a small 11L speaker, then I changed my mind and bought CiareHWB200.
Your friendly analysis is correct and help me make a decision, thank you.
Ciare has an impressive magnet, I hope that after the break-in it will not disappoint me.
Now 12" woofer is too much for WAF, I will stay with this configuration .
In separate cabinet I could easily align the speaker coils for time alignment.
I don't think there will be a big difference if tw and w130s are flush mounted in the same box.
Ciare moved a little higher ,glue, sound absorber and then I focus on filters.
Without a measuring device, do not expect an satisfactory speaker. The above is usefull for practice only, might help you only if you obtain real frd and zma files from manufacturer, if those things is not real your will get an usatisfactory result, and one more you will spend a lot of money and time on that speakers and at the end it will never sound corect. Why don't you build some finished and allready developed speakers for example some from Troles Gravesen for example? Thats great speakers expecialy recent ones from year-two ago. I don't want to discourage you, but I can tell you from experience, I spent a lot of time and money for nothing until I bought Audiomatica Clio, speakers finaly sound correct, believe me thats wasting of time and money without measuring device. Manufacturer data is useful for deciding which speaker you want to buy, but manufacturer must be trusted othervise you can't know if data is fake or not. When you chose right speakers and you design your box, the next step is mounting drivers and measuring them to obtain frd and zma files. For clio pocket you will need an calibrated microphone and also calibration file from that microphone so that when you obtain your real frd and zma you will need to post proces that data by calibration file since clio pocket do not have calibration file post procesing integrated in clio pocket software, it exist in much expensive clio devices only, for pocket you need to do it yourself. And than when you are done right with measurements and post procesing than you are ready for Xsim. After Xsim you can do fine tuning on real speakers by measuring them and correct some things in crossover in case it need corection. Thats all.
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Thank you shadowplay62 ,I will read your document carefully.
@savan
I appreciate the involvement and the help offered, it matters a lot .
What you say is correct, I read it, I asked, I have no doubt.
I have to ask again , the answer is very important ,maybe now I get it.
Can good measurements be made in a small normal room?
I know it's not possible. what is your answer ?
@savan
I appreciate the involvement and the help offered, it matters a lot .
What you say is correct, I read it, I asked, I have no doubt.
I have to ask again , the answer is very important ,maybe now I get it.
Can good measurements be made in a small normal room?
I know it's not possible. what is your answer ?
It is possible, if you use the capabilities of the REW program or similar programs.
You need to get two measurements, one measurement is made near the LF speaker, this allows you to get rid of room resonances. The second measurement is made in the far field, and a time window is used to get rid of the reflected signal, then these two measurements are matched by level and frequency, obtaining the final frequency response that is very close to the frequency response obtained in an open space without reflections. More detailed information on how to do this can be found on the Internet.
But I will tell you a little more, using the results of the microphone measurement, you can make a correction to the frequency response of the speaker so as to partially compensate for the influence of the room on the sound, and if you approach such a correction carefully, then sometimes it leads to a positive result. But for this you also need a computer or DSP, because introducing correction to the frequency response of the speaker system using passive filters is quite problematic.
Yes. The most used diy techique as we do not have a deaf room to get quality measurements is what uriy-sh say, later combine nearfield and farfield measurement and thats enought for an good speaker. Trought impulse response from farfiled measurements you can fully determine the distance of the speakers and also you can see the first reflection which you need trought software to eliminate by selecting only impulse response from start to the first reflection and import that selection into frequency response window, that way you can get good measurement for mids and highs.. Bass measurements is critical and reguire an deaf room for real bass measurements, but using nearfiled measurement is diy practice for those without deaf room and later combining nearfiled and farfield measurement results. This is an good practice which I practicing too http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/measurements.htm and its simply enought for making an good speaker.
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Theoretical it is, but many speakers that sound and measure exellent have passive crossovers. And the convenience of a speaker with single amp and fixed filters is something many prefer above an active system that is to complex to operate. But those crossovers are build on measurements and are far more complex to build than DSP correction.
I use(d) both, and very often a dsp unit, even a cheap one helps a lot to develop a good passive crossover for me as it's easy to experiment. So i would alo suggest buying a dsp, even if it's a very cheap one, so you can experiment what filters your setup need. It will teach you a lot. And you can later, if you understand the matter more, still make a passive crossover for it.
Butfor dsp, you need an amp per band (in your case 2x3 amp channels), and good dsp's are not cheap neighter. But the cheap (not so good) ones are not that bad this day anymore. You can get the quiet good Dayton 408 for 200€ down here, and good sterep amp like the Ayma A7 (not top of the line, but good) are not that expensive neighter (75€). If you want to go on with speaker building and learn more, this can be a good thnig to experiment with dsp with this setup. For less than 500€ you can have an active amp/dsp setup to power your speakers. (3xA7 + 1x408)
I use a MiniDSP Flex mostly today, it fits my need, but it's expensive and only 2x4 channels, the 2x8 channel exist, but cost a lot (like 6-7x the price of the Dayton). It's fully transparant altough (n digital sound), some older were not (but still usable). My amps used in the dsp setup are most of the time NCore amps build by Audiophonics in France (I live in Belgium). But you don't need that to start (i started with far less). The Dayton 408 and Ayma A7 amp get you a long way...
And yes, you can measure in room to get good measurements, you just need to do it right (again, see the manual of REW, it's all explained). Measurements are key, in both dsp based and passive setups, to get it right. And a setup to measure cost not that much. It's a measurment mic (Umik, Dayton, ... even Behringer with a calibration file can do the job) a sturdy mic stand, a 2ch I/O soundcard (can be cheap) a few cables and REW software (free). I use an UMIK-1, a Steinberg (Yamaha) UR-22MKII soundcard and REW.
I can recomend Clio Pocket 3 as a direct starting point for speakers development for those who need an easy and profesional solution. Also buy microphone calibration to obtain calibration file, thats important if you need an extra accouracy. https://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?page_id=3557
I would not call Clio cheap, even the Pocket system with a mic will be over 1K (and is limited in use). Rew is free and as good, and the tools to measure don't have to cost much neighter. For a starter that is enough. Clio is like said very good, but aimed at professionals who can earn back the investment of a few K. For hobbyist that is steep for just measuring.
You find a lot of useful info on this forum but you can start with this measurement guide:
https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_REW.pdf
Same opinion for measurements to all, excellent answers, many details provided, thank you very much.
There is a lot of information on the net, here on the forum and already saved to me.
I will save everything I received here, thanks again.
I have a PC, need for a sound card, microphone with calibration, support for it,some cables.
Doubts remain for the 2.5m high room,small free surface (a lot of furniture), a lot of glass windows, noises from the neighbors.
And for my skill to do exactly what I need to do and interpret the result correctly .
No musical training for me and no ears trained to accurately distinguish sounds.
I have to think about all of these .
I know something about three-amping from the R.Elliott website.
No passive speaker filter is needed anymore.
DSP, a digital signal processor probably does more and is a good temptation.
(at the same level of quality as the speakers (low...), I also built their amplification 2x50w/8ohm and I listen to Tidal through a cheap DAC)
The question always remains if we want to listen to the music in the artist's version or artificially processed according to our own taste.
I think I prefer to hear as close to the original as possible.
There is a lot of information on the net, here on the forum and already saved to me.
I will save everything I received here, thanks again.
I have a PC, need for a sound card, microphone with calibration, support for it,some cables.
Doubts remain for the 2.5m high room,small free surface (a lot of furniture), a lot of glass windows, noises from the neighbors.
And for my skill to do exactly what I need to do and interpret the result correctly .
No musical training for me and no ears trained to accurately distinguish sounds.
I have to think about all of these .
I know something about three-amping from the R.Elliott website.
No passive speaker filter is needed anymore.
DSP, a digital signal processor probably does more and is a good temptation.
(at the same level of quality as the speakers (low...), I also built their amplification 2x50w/8ohm and I listen to Tidal through a cheap DAC)
The question always remains if we want to listen to the music in the artist's version or artificially processed according to our own taste.
I think I prefer to hear as close to the original as possible.
No, thats wrong. What you hear is just a matter of weather and mood and doesn't necessarily mean you'll like what you heard the day before. I went through that. You need measurement device, diy or not diy, It's only when you get the measuring device than you see how wrong everything was. : )
A good speaker is one that can play all day long from morning to night without tiring you or bothering you at any point, thats only one verification method without measuring device. : )
A good speaker is one that can play all day long from morning to night without tiring you or bothering you at any point, thats only one verification method without measuring device. : )
This is my reference speaker of all time, I changed many speakers but those one is simply the best relaxing one for me, flat like a butter -> https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/best-8-inch-woofer.278192/post-7562003 I'm planning to put 3 more Audax per cabinet so that Raal get no attenuation at all but just only one 4.7uF capacitor, simulation result promises that! Probably from beggining in D'appolito configuration.
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Seccond one which I like a lot is https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/best-8-inch-woofer.278192/post-7566948 still not as one with Raal but very relaxing and neutral speaker.