Hi to all,
A newbie here. This is my second speaker build project - the first one being a Parts Express 2 way Usher 701 kit 12 years ago. I am now retired and want to push the boat out both in terms of final result and my learning curve. I tend to aim high knowing I will make mistakes so this time I am aiming for a pair of 3 way floor standers. My set up is:
Room 12ft x 17 ft with speakers to be set up on one of the short sides. Two leather couches and floor to ceiling heavy curtains on opposite short side. Harwood floor.
Amp = Marantz PM 8006
Streamer = Audiolab 6000N with Tidal
Turntable = Rega Planar P1
Building the enclosure should be ok - I have a lot of woodworking experience and necessary tools etc. . My main concern is the crossover. I am new to this so I seek forgiveness in advance for any 'obvious' gaffs. I attach a document with details of drivers and enclosure that I have come up with so far. Am I on the right track at all or way off the mark? Any constructive comments would be welcome. I have not purchased anything yet except a measuring mic for testing when the time comes. Thank you in advance.
A newbie here. This is my second speaker build project - the first one being a Parts Express 2 way Usher 701 kit 12 years ago. I am now retired and want to push the boat out both in terms of final result and my learning curve. I tend to aim high knowing I will make mistakes so this time I am aiming for a pair of 3 way floor standers. My set up is:
Room 12ft x 17 ft with speakers to be set up on one of the short sides. Two leather couches and floor to ceiling heavy curtains on opposite short side. Harwood floor.
Amp = Marantz PM 8006
Streamer = Audiolab 6000N with Tidal
Turntable = Rega Planar P1
Building the enclosure should be ok - I have a lot of woodworking experience and necessary tools etc. . My main concern is the crossover. I am new to this so I seek forgiveness in advance for any 'obvious' gaffs. I attach a document with details of drivers and enclosure that I have come up with so far. Am I on the right track at all or way off the mark? Any constructive comments would be welcome. I have not purchased anything yet except a measuring mic for testing when the time comes. Thank you in advance.
Attachments
Do you intend to use sub/s? If not assessing the pros and cons of a pair of 8" drivers rather than just one may be worthwhile.
For that room a pair of RS225 in a vented enclosure will likely do fine. But do you intend to design the system on your own? What about a good kit, like the Tarkus or alike? You will have to acquire, amongst other crafts, the tech/art(?) of acoustic measurements of loudspeakers if you want to design yourself.
Hi Andy19191, I don't intend using subs - I am not chasing a very deep base so was thinking the single RS225 would fit the bill.
Hi Markbakk, I do intend to design the system myself. I realise this is a challenge as I have never done so before. This is my second project - first one was a 2 way kit from Parts Express (Usher 701) 12 years ago. My default is to push the boat out in the knowledge I will make mistakes - that way I learn a lot quickly. I am very handy with woodwork so I am not concerned about that. My only purchase for this project so far is a Umik for testing when the time comes. I expect the main challenge will be the crossover so any comments on that would be much appreciated.
Thanks to you both for your interest.
Hi Markbakk, I do intend to design the system myself. I realise this is a challenge as I have never done so before. This is my second project - first one was a 2 way kit from Parts Express (Usher 701) 12 years ago. My default is to push the boat out in the knowledge I will make mistakes - that way I learn a lot quickly. I am very handy with woodwork so I am not concerned about that. My only purchase for this project so far is a Umik for testing when the time comes. I expect the main challenge will be the crossover so any comments on that would be much appreciated.
Thanks to you both for your interest.
My question was not about bass extension but having sufficient clean SPL and sensitivity. The reason most 3 way designs use 2 x 8" RS225 woofers rather than one is likely to become clearer as you continue designing a crossover and consider what to do about baffle step correction given the relatively low sensitivity and ouput of a single woofer. Are you looking at a wide or narrow baffle? How much baffle step correction are you looking to include? How much clean SPL do you need in the bass region? What is a reasonable overall speaker sensitivity and if the design is coming out a bit low compared to other designs what are the options?
My suggestion would be to rough out a design on paper using a single woofer and a pair or perhaps an 8" and a 12" if you want to stick with a single woofer. A single 8" woofer may still be the way to go for you but the reasons conventional 3 way designs without sub support tend to have more woofer area will be understood.
Hi Andy19191, I was going to wait until i had my enclosure ready to take the drivers and after testing make adjustments to my crossover. I am looking at a 12" baffle. Nor sure at this stage how much Baffle Step correction will be required. I was aiming for 86-90 db for the speaker. I have options as to how near my speakers will be to the back wall. However, I will take your advice and model 2 x 8" and a 12" single to see the differences. Thanks again for your interest.
Hi Shadowplay62. Thanks for your reply. A couple of questions
Is the rs225 enclosure vented or closed?
Does the Seas mid range have a separate enclosure to that of the woofer?
Thanks again.
Is the rs225 enclosure vented or closed?
Does the Seas mid range have a separate enclosure to that of the woofer?
Thanks again.
Hi Shadowplay62, Thanks for all that info - very interesting and I think it points me in the right direction. Is that an Italian flag I see by your name? I am heading to Rome for a week tomorrow, taking in the 6 nations match on Sat. I hope Italy don't spoil our party! I won't get a chance to reply for 10 days or so.
Thanks
Thanks
Hi Heigh,
Yes, it is, very similar to the Irish one, but I'm a bit far away from Rome (Italy is so looong...)
I had to check the 6 nations ranking and I see that it's all open with France and England. Forza!!
I hope that Italy will avoid the wooden spoon eventually.
I have read that you already have a mic, so just follow the instructions in this document
https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_REW.pdf
Enjoy the rugby and your trip to Rome even if in this period the city is crowded and messier than usual because of the jubilee.
Ciao
S.
Yes, it is, very similar to the Irish one, but I'm a bit far away from Rome (Italy is so looong...)
I had to check the 6 nations ranking and I see that it's all open with France and England. Forza!!
I hope that Italy will avoid the wooden spoon eventually.
I have read that you already have a mic, so just follow the instructions in this document
https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_REW.pdf
Enjoy the rugby and your trip to Rome even if in this period the city is crowded and messier than usual because of the jubilee.
Ciao
S.
Hi S I had a chance to look at your proposal quickly. However, when I use the values you propose, I am getting a different answer.
The most obvious difference is the mid range spike at approx 435Hz.
The RS225 is peaking at 90dB.
Consequently, the crossover point for RS 225 and MCA12rc is quite different.
Am I missing something? Thank you.
The most obvious difference is the mid range spike at approx 435Hz.
The RS225 is peaking at 90dB.
Consequently, the crossover point for RS 225 and MCA12rc is quite different.
Am I missing something? Thank you.
It's a nice plan, but i would suggest that you buy a cheap dsp and amps to learn how crossovers can influence the sound and experiment to find the right setup. Those can be cheap, you don't need top of the line for that. I used a cheap MiniDSP (first version) and some cheap chipamps to learn this and this helps me a lot now how to judge drivers purely on measurement and to know where the crossover should be. It will be a learning curve, but it can make a big difference.
But first, find drivers that have overlap in the frequency band and not to heavy resonances, build the right cabinet for it and measure with your mic and rew, and measure again untill you're sure you measure right. Good measurements are the base of all good crossovers, be it digital or analog. Once you have an id of crossover points and slopes, and where you need eq, you can start try to do this analog passive.
But first, find drivers that have overlap in the frequency band and not to heavy resonances, build the right cabinet for it and measure with your mic and rew, and measure again untill you're sure you measure right. Good measurements are the base of all good crossovers, be it digital or analog. Once you have an id of crossover points and slopes, and where you need eq, you can start try to do this analog passive.
I think you are simulating with the 8-ohm woofer and shadowplay62 is simulating with the 4-ohm.
I have used the 8 Ohm version of the DA woofer, but, I think you used the impedance files of wf and mid traced from the datasheet and not those of the impedance of the drivers calculated in their volume (give a look at the image in post #9).
Moreover, I have manipulated the FRD files of all the drivers in their respective positions on the baffle in Diffraction tools and applied the baffle loss for wf and mid before merging LF and HF part.
Try to replace your file with the ones attached.
PS I modified the R// of the Tw HP because I have used a wrong zma file.
Why all this discussion about the crossover in this stage? First get the enclosure and position of drivers right in a dummy enclosure and perform measurements…
Hi all. Thank you for your contributions. I am abroad at the moment so it will be close to two weeks before I can review your contributions. In the meantime Happy St Patrick’s Day to everyone ☘️☘️☘️
Hi, I hope your journey goes well.
If you want to prevent some of the usual mistakes beginners do, I may give you some ideas.
First, you got a measuring microphone. I hope you didn't go for the expensive version. USB may seem very convenient on first sight, but can lead to erratic measurements because of timing issues. Most prefer an USB audio interface with a phantom powered XLR mik because of that.
Anyway, pick yourself a measuring program, most go for REW, some choose Arta. There are others, free or commercial that work as well.
Start measuring anything you can get. Change the distance and angle, also try different positions of the speaker in the room. You should get an idea about what you do. You will find that you can completely different curves from one and the same speaker. Then find out why and how you can reliable, repeatable measurements.
That should be done before you order anything else for your speaker.
Then a second point. First, a 3-way is much more critical than a two way to develop. Most with real life experience will say it close to impossible for a first project. If you aim for something really good. Something that is not worse than a commercial speaker your could have bought for half of your investment. But there is a good way to get around this.
If you do a 3-way, you will find the parts for a passive crossover ridiculous expensive if you use something that doesn't degrade the bass. Just look for some coils like the ones in your simulations. Because of clever marketing of a greedy German manufacturer, you pay more money for a simple reel of copper wire today, than a modern class D quality amp costs.
In fact, it is much cheaper today and (!) better to go active, at least for the bass. Active means a DSP and an amp or a combination of both.
This makes your aim of a 3-way more realistic, as well.
You can see it this way:
The 3rd way relieves the mid-high of the stress from bass frequency, making them sound much better, while reaching deeper as well.
So the more you follow this concept, you are lead to a two way with integrated subwoofer, divided by 100-200 Hz. To realize this passive will cost you more than the rest of your drivers if you take low distortion and low resistance coils. Which makes no real sense, as you still have a single amp do the whole work, heavy and light at the same time and loose damping factor. Most amps play better when they don't have to deliver huge current to a bass driver, while trying to reproduce heights at the same time.
So that for an idea. You could do at least the 3rd way active.
Stay safe!
If you want to prevent some of the usual mistakes beginners do, I may give you some ideas.
First, you got a measuring microphone. I hope you didn't go for the expensive version. USB may seem very convenient on first sight, but can lead to erratic measurements because of timing issues. Most prefer an USB audio interface with a phantom powered XLR mik because of that.
Anyway, pick yourself a measuring program, most go for REW, some choose Arta. There are others, free or commercial that work as well.
Start measuring anything you can get. Change the distance and angle, also try different positions of the speaker in the room. You should get an idea about what you do. You will find that you can completely different curves from one and the same speaker. Then find out why and how you can reliable, repeatable measurements.
That should be done before you order anything else for your speaker.
Then a second point. First, a 3-way is much more critical than a two way to develop. Most with real life experience will say it close to impossible for a first project. If you aim for something really good. Something that is not worse than a commercial speaker your could have bought for half of your investment. But there is a good way to get around this.
If you do a 3-way, you will find the parts for a passive crossover ridiculous expensive if you use something that doesn't degrade the bass. Just look for some coils like the ones in your simulations. Because of clever marketing of a greedy German manufacturer, you pay more money for a simple reel of copper wire today, than a modern class D quality amp costs.
In fact, it is much cheaper today and (!) better to go active, at least for the bass. Active means a DSP and an amp or a combination of both.
This makes your aim of a 3-way more realistic, as well.
You can see it this way:
The 3rd way relieves the mid-high of the stress from bass frequency, making them sound much better, while reaching deeper as well.
So the more you follow this concept, you are lead to a two way with integrated subwoofer, divided by 100-200 Hz. To realize this passive will cost you more than the rest of your drivers if you take low distortion and low resistance coils. Which makes no real sense, as you still have a single amp do the whole work, heavy and light at the same time and loose damping factor. Most amps play better when they don't have to deliver huge current to a bass driver, while trying to reproduce heights at the same time.
So that for an idea. You could do at least the 3rd way active.
Stay safe!