I contributed but you delete my posts in that thread because of personal matters. I don't think such behavior serves the purpose of getting the full picture of what data people expect from a manufacturer. If you ask a question and only allow the answers you like then why ask the question in the first place?
I would imagine because you have cast aspersions about his credibility / honesty / truthfulness on this thread. The personalising was yours; you can hardly blame them if they subsequently have little desire to discuss matters further with you because of that. I'm not suggesting I haven't been guilty of similar in the past, but I accept that I will not be flavour of the month with those on the receiving end, nor expect them to look on me or my views in a favourable light.
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Deleting my posts in that thread helps his "credibility / honesty / truthfulness"?
There are no removed posts in that thread.
Sorry Sy, you beat me to it.
As far as I can see, you've little to complain about on that score. It's the equivalent of passing water on somebody's doormat then expecting to be asked in for a pleasant chat. You can hardly blame them, if you accuse them of dishonesty (which tends to cause major offense) of either telling you to get knotted, or having zero interest in anything you have to say in the future.
Back OT.
As far as I can see, you've little to complain about on that score. It's the equivalent of passing water on somebody's doormat then expecting to be asked in for a pleasant chat. You can hardly blame them, if you accuse them of dishonesty (which tends to cause major offense) of either telling you to get knotted, or having zero interest in anything you have to say in the future.
Back OT.
It seems like many of the best Engineers get angry pretty easily... We work so hard to learn what we believe is right, and then someone comes along and tells us we're wrong... I try to remind myself that being wrong is a good thing; it means I get to learn something. Edison put it well when he said, "The most important ingredient of success is failure". The trick is to not take it personally. Same thing with guitar, and probably everything else in life; patience and don't take yourself too seriously. Things are always changing, new info keeps coming along, etc. Who ever started this thread was just asking for recommendations on which 3 or 4 inch drivers he should check out. A lot of good info has been shared.
I read most of this thread myself, but am not sure if the thread originator is just building some small computer speakers, or if he wants these to be a main system in his living room (?). Maybe that would be a good area to talk about at this point. Room acoustics, wall proximity, is he thinking of adding a woofer for below 200HZ? Maybe he did say, and I forgot.
I read most of this thread myself, but am not sure if the thread originator is just building some small computer speakers, or if he wants these to be a main system in his living room (?). Maybe that would be a good area to talk about at this point. Room acoustics, wall proximity, is he thinking of adding a woofer for below 200HZ? Maybe he did say, and I forgot.
Bob - indeed this thread did wander a bit over Time and space since Sept '12, during which span markus' original intention expressed for the candidate driver may have changed
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-good-dispersion-high-xmax-4.html#post3182361
but I can't parse if any such revision to application has been clarified.
Those of us who have played with FR drivers for a while are fully aware of their shortcomings, and often prefer to accept and live within those limitations (myself included, for the most part) When asked to make observations, suggestions or recommendations, I think disservice is made if high priority is not placed on the question of application.
Posturing or vituperation over the bona fides of specific manufacturers or enthusiast DIYers to take "meaningful / accurate, etc" measurements does no good (who wins a pi$$ing contest when everyone gets wet feet?), neither does it address the question as to whether / how any specific set of measurements translate to the real word experience of listening to music for enjoyment.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-good-dispersion-high-xmax-4.html#post3182361
but I can't parse if any such revision to application has been clarified.
Those of us who have played with FR drivers for a while are fully aware of their shortcomings, and often prefer to accept and live within those limitations (myself included, for the most part) When asked to make observations, suggestions or recommendations, I think disservice is made if high priority is not placed on the question of application.
Posturing or vituperation over the bona fides of specific manufacturers or enthusiast DIYers to take "meaningful / accurate, etc" measurements does no good (who wins a pi$$ing contest when everyone gets wet feet?), neither does it address the question as to whether / how any specific set of measurements translate to the real word experience of listening to music for enjoyment.
Not so much in my experience. And "the best Engineers" tend to avoid verbal predicates like "very good" and "high" (except in casual conversation, where subjective answers to subjective questions are expected) . . . when they want objective answers they ask objective questions, and generally include context as well. The "anger" thing more generally reflects personality (typically "control") issues, not engineering ability (although maybe control freaks are over-represented in the engineering community in general 😉).
While I agree the narrow dips can go unnoticed, but the narrow peaks can sound very disturbing. This seems to be true for metal cone drivers. In Alpair 5 (which I have) there is strong resonance peak just above 10kHz, and it makes annoying whistling like sound on certain input signals. It is clearly perceivable and I need to notch filter it out for the driver to be listenable.
On the other hand CHR70 (which I also have) does not sound nearly that bad, even there is also that peak which looks like a resonance, but apparently the Q is not so severe.
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If the purpose of the thread is still to find a fullrange driver with the specified 3-4" diameter and 'good' dispersion, it has been pretty much exhausted. Something like the Peerless/ Vifa TC/ TG9 family is about as good as things are going to get for a fullrange driver in terms of on and off-axis smoothness and even those can't offer the kind of 90 degree performance that seems to be required- it would appear to be a physical impossibility with conventional drivers. If the desired directivity spec. can't be met, either the requirements need to be relaxed or another solution needs to be found. The obvious option is the addition of a tweeter, hateful though that might be. ;o) The only other option that occurs to me is having a look at BMR drivers- although that's a whole other can of worms from a technical standpoint. Perhaps you should have a word with Overkill Audio about this. Otherwise Markus I think you're out of luck in the real world- just because you can specify a driver doesn't mean it can exist!
334 post and how much data with regards to dispersion and xmas was shown? 3 drivers? And the data for two of those drivers was provided by myself! "Exhausted" is pretty far-fetched don't you think?
Not at all. I'm basing it on your criteria being too stringent for the class of driver- or more specifically the bandwidth you are looking for. I don't think what you seem to be after in terms of directivity is physically possible, simple as that. I'm trying to be helpful! I don't have the industry experience that some of the contributors to this thread have, but I have explored a lot of the possibilities out there over the last 35 years or so and have a reasonable technical knowledge as well as a fair grasp of the market. From mainstream manufacturers it just isn't going to get much better than the TC9, or perhaps the Scanspeak 10F or the Fostex FF85K- although the last two are more of an extended range mid even compared to the TC9. In terms of more specialist (or at least smaller scale) manufacturers, MA and Jordan are about as good as it gets. I have the 10Fs, Alpair 7s, Jordan JX92S, MA CHR70s, the 2" Bandors and FE127s to hand, but I wouldn't expect any of them to look like anything other than a mess at 90 degrees at the top of their ranges. It just isn't a realistic criteria. I would respectfully ask what you are expecting to see in your ideal driver- what would be your minimum standard for directivity? I'm perfectly serious about BMRs BTW- there is some chance they might give you the coverage you seem to want, although you may find measurements of them upsetting. I would personally be interested to see any measurements Overkill Audio has of his units, which are probably as good as BMR gets just now.
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markus, read Toaster's last two posts thoroughly - I think he's quite diplomatically expressed as close to a consensus as this thread is likely to find
bravo, T!
Of all of the non BMR devices named in #336, I've recently heard or currently own all but the TC9 and any of the Bandors, (actually I've heard more than just those, but who cares) and in case it's not been spelled out clearly, I couldn't give a rip about dispersion much past 20dg, and very much enjoy the Alpair7 that you chose to highlight.
Before you scream red herring or such one more time, if you don't get that for a large percentage of FR DIYers the entire system , not just the speakers, is only a tool to serve the enjoyment of the music, and many of us balance a number of real world compromises to that end, it'll be increasingly difficult to maintain a meaningful and respectful conversation.
edit: yes, exactly what are your current criteria?
bravo, T!
Of all of the non BMR devices named in #336, I've recently heard or currently own all but the TC9 and any of the Bandors, (actually I've heard more than just those, but who cares) and in case it's not been spelled out clearly, I couldn't give a rip about dispersion much past 20dg, and very much enjoy the Alpair7 that you chose to highlight.
Before you scream red herring or such one more time, if you don't get that for a large percentage of FR DIYers the entire system , not just the speakers, is only a tool to serve the enjoyment of the music, and many of us balance a number of real world compromises to that end, it'll be increasingly difficult to maintain a meaningful and respectful conversation.
edit: yes, exactly what are your current criteria?
I'm inferring them from your criticisms of the measurements seen so far as significantly more uniform directivity (or at least more smoothly tapering directivity) than appears to be available in real drive units. Better you tell me/ us surely? If your criteria are more relaxed than they appear to be, fair enough. I did ask in the post above that you clarify what you are after and I did qualify too '...what you seem to be after...' Better to be more specific, surely?
Just add another TC9 and put it at an angle to the first. No X-over, no different driver signature and more bass extension (one of the areas where the driver leaves you wanting). If the ohms are bothering you or your amp, get another two for further benefits to bass and omnidirectionality or try to get the 4 ohm version.
If anything I did criticize the lack of meaningful dispersion data. What is available in real drive units? Where is the data? We've seen at least 2 drivers that have a very different polar pattern, so it's obviously not just the diaphragm size that matters.
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