I think NagysAudio is working for Digikey.
Looks like it, or just suffering from anti China syndrome.
To the OP:
Like another poster said, any component that is common in audio electronics and sold over eBay by sellers in HK/China is usually "fake". By fake, I mean they may be counterfeit, substandard, factory rejects, etc.
These parts usually work just fine in audio applications. It is unlikely that the hobbyist is able to test the part for full spec compliance nor is it likely that the hobbyist will perform prolonged burn-in of their projects at full power. Their designs may not even be able to survive vigorous testing even with genuine parts.
It is the very fact (that EUVL mentioned) that leads to eBay "fakes" - practically all parts are made in China. To be more accurate, most parts go through final packaging in the Far East. The die test/cut/packaging/assembly process usually results in a lot of rejects. This is usually the source for a lot of semiconductor fakes. Sometimes, these factories will also source cheaper, lower spec dies and repackage them as higher spec devices. For passives (capacitors, pots), this practice is rampant.
Just buying from authorized distributors, while being the obvious safe method, is not entirely secure. Several large IT companies can tell you that. I work for one such large company and we vigorously perform AOS, MQM (Assurance of Supply, Materials Quality Management) practices with our suppliers. Even genuine parts suffer from quality issues just because the factory is in China!!! E.g. a tier 1 inductor company with substandard glue issue, a tier one power company with DI water contamination issue. Granted, these issues can happen elsewhere, but generally speaking, Chinese management are less inclined to adhere to quality standards when schedule or cost factors are at risk (i.e. they need to make a profit too).
What does this mean for us hobbyists?
1) No harm taking a chance buying from eBay if the cost savings is significant.
2) Besides Digikey and Mouser (somewhat pricey), consider bulk distributors like Avnet. They sell small qty to private individuals at good prices. You may need to buy a certain qty. Plan your projects ahead.
3) Stay away from HK/China eBay for very audio specific, high cost components, e.g. fancy capacitors, fancy op-amps, fancy transistors.
4) Design your projects for reliability by using ample derating. This way, a slightly off-spec part will not cause any issues.
Whatever opinion you may have, please share it without slamming others.
Edit:
On 9/22/10, Avnet had both 2SK1058 and 2SJ162 for less than $9 a pair (in small qty)!! Today, 2SJ162 is out of stock. That's cheaper than the eBay $10 price. You just need to keep an eye out.
Like another poster said, any component that is common in audio electronics and sold over eBay by sellers in HK/China is usually "fake". By fake, I mean they may be counterfeit, substandard, factory rejects, etc.
These parts usually work just fine in audio applications. It is unlikely that the hobbyist is able to test the part for full spec compliance nor is it likely that the hobbyist will perform prolonged burn-in of their projects at full power. Their designs may not even be able to survive vigorous testing even with genuine parts.
It is the very fact (that EUVL mentioned) that leads to eBay "fakes" - practically all parts are made in China. To be more accurate, most parts go through final packaging in the Far East. The die test/cut/packaging/assembly process usually results in a lot of rejects. This is usually the source for a lot of semiconductor fakes. Sometimes, these factories will also source cheaper, lower spec dies and repackage them as higher spec devices. For passives (capacitors, pots), this practice is rampant.
Just buying from authorized distributors, while being the obvious safe method, is not entirely secure. Several large IT companies can tell you that. I work for one such large company and we vigorously perform AOS, MQM (Assurance of Supply, Materials Quality Management) practices with our suppliers. Even genuine parts suffer from quality issues just because the factory is in China!!! E.g. a tier 1 inductor company with substandard glue issue, a tier one power company with DI water contamination issue. Granted, these issues can happen elsewhere, but generally speaking, Chinese management are less inclined to adhere to quality standards when schedule or cost factors are at risk (i.e. they need to make a profit too).
What does this mean for us hobbyists?
1) No harm taking a chance buying from eBay if the cost savings is significant.
2) Besides Digikey and Mouser (somewhat pricey), consider bulk distributors like Avnet. They sell small qty to private individuals at good prices. You may need to buy a certain qty. Plan your projects ahead.
3) Stay away from HK/China eBay for very audio specific, high cost components, e.g. fancy capacitors, fancy op-amps, fancy transistors.
4) Design your projects for reliability by using ample derating. This way, a slightly off-spec part will not cause any issues.
Whatever opinion you may have, please share it without slamming others.
Edit:
On 9/22/10, Avnet had both 2SK1058 and 2SJ162 for less than $9 a pair (in small qty)!! Today, 2SJ162 is out of stock. That's cheaper than the eBay $10 price. You just need to keep an eye out.
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There are also known audio sources in Hong Kong with proven reputation, the likes of Spencer, MarkAudio, DIY HiFi Supply, .....
You just need to research a bit and watch out for suspicious sellers.
With a population of 1.6 billion when only a small portion is well off, it is impossible to avoid black sheep altogether.
Patrick
You just need to research a bit and watch out for suspicious sellers.
With a population of 1.6 billion when only a small portion is well off, it is impossible to avoid black sheep altogether.
Patrick
NagysAudio,
not sure if I'm convinced...I was asking because counterfeiting lateral MOSFETs is not easily done. Why invest in a sophisticated equipment and increase the manufacturing cost and complexity, it`s more convenient to stay on the technical level of 2N3055 and label the products 2SC5200, 2SC2922 or whatever.
not sure if I'm convinced...I was asking because counterfeiting lateral MOSFETs is not easily done. Why invest in a sophisticated equipment and increase the manufacturing cost and complexity, it`s more convenient to stay on the technical level of 2N3055 and label the products 2SC5200, 2SC2922 or whatever.
not really fakes
The parts floating out there on ebay are not necessarily fake. What happens is investors will commission work on a project in China at a factory, the customer pays for the material and what is left over ends up on ebay. Also, it is common for large companies to halt production on a product because it just doesn't sell as well as it did initially if at all. The items bought in bulk then go through an agent that liquidates the material and takes a commission. So most bypass the agents and off load directly on ebay. Whether it is genuine or not is irrelevant, if they are not stored or handled correctly (die and wafers) you will end up with junk. There are many sources on ebay that have proven reliable and those are the ones that I purchase from. You just have to make a judgment call and with a few parts bought at a time to establish the quality you can expect from the seller.
Nick
The parts floating out there on ebay are not necessarily fake. What happens is investors will commission work on a project in China at a factory, the customer pays for the material and what is left over ends up on ebay. Also, it is common for large companies to halt production on a product because it just doesn't sell as well as it did initially if at all. The items bought in bulk then go through an agent that liquidates the material and takes a commission. So most bypass the agents and off load directly on ebay. Whether it is genuine or not is irrelevant, if they are not stored or handled correctly (die and wafers) you will end up with junk. There are many sources on ebay that have proven reliable and those are the ones that I purchase from. You just have to make a judgment call and with a few parts bought at a time to establish the quality you can expect from the seller.
Nick
> What happens is investors will commission work on a project ....
Let me tell you another (real) story:
A world famous Japanese manufacturer of consumer electronics commissioned a Chinese loudspeaker chassis manufacturer to design and make a 12" subwoofer for them, in the Japnese's own brand. Large volume, unbelievably low prices. The Japanese asked for Just-in-Time, of course, so the Chinese had to keep 10k stock of parts in order to be able to respond on demand.
One day, the Japanese decided that they didn't want this subwoofer anymore. The Chinese guy was informed. And of course you say "no problem" to such powerful customer. The Chinese said they had 10k parts on the shelf, and wanted to know whether they could get some compensation. The Japanese said, "yes, but you will then get no more orders from us in the future." So total lost for the Chinese, who was earning peanuts before anyhow.
So if you were him, what would you do with the 10k parts ?
It is easy to accuse the Chinese, until you hear these stories. Makes you think.
Patrick
.
Let me tell you another (real) story:
A world famous Japanese manufacturer of consumer electronics commissioned a Chinese loudspeaker chassis manufacturer to design and make a 12" subwoofer for them, in the Japnese's own brand. Large volume, unbelievably low prices. The Japanese asked for Just-in-Time, of course, so the Chinese had to keep 10k stock of parts in order to be able to respond on demand.
One day, the Japanese decided that they didn't want this subwoofer anymore. The Chinese guy was informed. And of course you say "no problem" to such powerful customer. The Chinese said they had 10k parts on the shelf, and wanted to know whether they could get some compensation. The Japanese said, "yes, but you will then get no more orders from us in the future." So total lost for the Chinese, who was earning peanuts before anyhow.
So if you were him, what would you do with the 10k parts ?
It is easy to accuse the Chinese, until you hear these stories. Makes you think.
Patrick
.
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I have bought quite a lot of passive components from HK based Ebay sellers, quality ranges from reasonable to excellent, all parts that I have measured were within spec. These are the components which end up in a lot of consumer goods.
A large manufacturing base means a healthy surplus market also it ensures component distributors are well represented. Australia used to be similar in the early 70's.
FWIW I once sold a lot of components on ebay, the vast majority were surplus telco components, all top quality from a place with excellent QA also I sold a load of power mosfets because it was cheaper to to buy 1K from the manufacturer and sell the surplus than to buy local. Now the electronic manufacturing base in Australia is close to non existent the availability of surplus components is the same. The telco manufacturer from which I got the surplus components from now manufactures in Malaysia.
I do not understand how some people can claim that all components are fake, what constitutes a fake resistor or a fake capacitor? Semiconductors are another matter If I feel bored I will buy some and characterise them, AFAIK you can buy direct from Renesas with 25 minimum of each type.
A large manufacturing base means a healthy surplus market also it ensures component distributors are well represented. Australia used to be similar in the early 70's.
FWIW I once sold a lot of components on ebay, the vast majority were surplus telco components, all top quality from a place with excellent QA also I sold a load of power mosfets because it was cheaper to to buy 1K from the manufacturer and sell the surplus than to buy local. Now the electronic manufacturing base in Australia is close to non existent the availability of surplus components is the same. The telco manufacturer from which I got the surplus components from now manufactures in Malaysia.
I do not understand how some people can claim that all components are fake, what constitutes a fake resistor or a fake capacitor? Semiconductors are another matter If I feel bored I will buy some and characterise them, AFAIK you can buy direct from Renesas with 25 minimum of each type.
Patrick, to paraphrase Vicky Pollard "Yeah, but..." Everyone we have spoken with over there says it is quite common practice for a brother-in-law or cousin to set up a parallel business and supply the home market...and then what happens...
The bookstores in the airports of Beijing and Shanghai are saturated with books on American entrepreneurs and business leaders, and it's not just Warren Buffet and Bill Gates. Everywhere you go people stop you to practice English.
Article in the Sunday New York Times magazine on the re-establishment of Tao in China. Some in the top echelon of society see a need for more social cohesiveness.
The bookstores in the airports of Beijing and Shanghai are saturated with books on American entrepreneurs and business leaders, and it's not just Warren Buffet and Bill Gates. Everywhere you go people stop you to practice English.
Article in the Sunday New York Times magazine on the re-establishment of Tao in China. Some in the top echelon of society see a need for more social cohesiveness.
I work for a company that does electronics manufacturing in China. We have offices in the science and technology district in HK. When we do costing in the states and send it over for a our offices in China to line up manufacturers we get push back. Our operations people update the demands in our system on a weekly basis and yes to your point we pull the plug prematurely at times, below the negotiated quantities. We on the other hand will pay compensation for on hand material. We choose to take it off their hands or let them sell it to make additional profit to lessen the sourness of the experience. LOL......yeah...it does happen all the time. Some of these manufacturers who I have dealt with and know people there will off load stuff on ebay...and at times it's my EE counterpart over there who provides the technical info and writes the page descriptions for the admins to upload.
Nick
It's kind of hard to fake a 1% resistor as we can all measure it. I have actually had pretty good luck buying cheap amps from China, probably built with the same cheap components that I am also buying. Main thing is waiting 3 weeks for it to arrive. I have a package of 100 resistors 1% (blue 1/4 watt) of most values from 10R to 1M and it cost like $7. Try getting that from Digikey or Mouser. Just got a bagfull of LED's (can't fake that), 10uF caps, 100nF caps, all good and measure well for pennies on the dollar from Aliexpress. Aliexpress also won't pay vendor until you say you accept the goods. They refund the moment I say there is a problem. Vendors don't want low STAR ratings so tend to sell working stuff. Taking a gamble but just got 10 pairs of 2SC5200 and 2SCA1943 power transistors for $7. I have not yet received a fake or falsely advertised part yet. I also am waiting for a bag of 40 SK170 JFET's - let's see how those work out.
The problem with such categorical statements is that if someone somewhere finds a single part that is not fake, you end up looking like an idiot.
And I have literally thousands of genuine semiconductors bought on eBay from China and HongKong. Yes you are likely to get fakes (or rather an unknown genuine part re-labeled as anything you asked for, that's the new thing), so buyer beware. But then, there are also good sellers with good merchandise.
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