Cool - I guessed that, but it's good to have confirmation by cracking open the package. There are pros and cons of the lower die size and Cob of the TTC5200 - it may be faster, but less stable in some applications. Most probably also less rugged than the original 2sc5200, but it's also less expensive.
It's probably worth hoarding some of the original 2sc5200/2sa1943 pairs now - I'd probably prefer those in most applications, though I can think of some Class-B applications where the TTs may cross over faster.
Is there any alternative in toshiba for 2sc5200 1943 pair I want to use them for my product after seeing the ttc5200 it was very obvious that its not that rugged im thinking of using either sanken 2sa1215 or exicon or alfets ALF16P20W for ruggedness but alfets n exicons are way expensive in production
There's 2sc5242/2sa1962, but they're TO-3P and rated only for 80W output stages. These are also second-sourced by Fairchild as FJA4313/FJA4213. The Fairchild parts are available in a 150W-rated TO-264 package as FJL4315/FJL4215, and seem to be exactly the same as 2sc5200/2sa1943.
However, all these will be harder to find and/or more expensive than the original 2sc5200/2sa1943, which was a great deal when it was widely available. Stocks must still be around, but I expect they'll increase in price over time.
Choosing TTC5200 and TTA1943 or 2SC5200 and 2SA1943
In 2011 Toshiba announced the introduction of the TTC5200 and its PNP complementary TTA1943 as a replacement for the highly popular 2SC5200 and 2SA1943.
The new TT devices will only be diffused and assembled in Japan while the older 2S devices would be manufactured in China as well as Japan. The new TT devices will use the latest Toshiba important advances in technology and manufacturing such as diffusion, bonding, thermal conduction and encapsulation. All devices are TO-3P(L) case style (also known as Toshiba 2-21F1A).
The main differences between TT and 2S are:
TTC5200 2SC5200 TTA1943 2SA1943
hFE (min) 80 55 80 55
Cob (pF) 145 200 240 360
Diffusion JAPAN - JAPAN -
Assembly JAPAN China or Japan JAPAN China or Japan
Markings Laser engraving
TT devices are Toshiba protected propriety numbering which means NO other manufacturer can use that number.
2S devices are JEITA registered number and other manufacturers can also use it.
Toshiba also produces TT numbered devices designated as TTC5200N and TTA1943N manufactured in China in a smaller package TO-3P(N) which is equivalent to JEITA SC-65. These devices are of lower performance than the normal TT parts.
TT and 2S devices typical weight is 9.75g which can sometimes be helpful in detecting counterfeits.
Conclusion: The TT devices are obviously superior and should always be the first choice. Some enthusiasts, in attempting to examine the differences between devices, de-cap and compare the physical size of the silicon die. Such exercise is totally useless since device parameters cannot be guessed from variations in die size (even a 30% difference is not uncommon in manufacturing). On-the-other hand a huge big difference in size would strongly suggest the possibility of counterfeit.
Supply: Toshiba supply TT devices in sealed cartons containing 500 devices. Each carton contains 5 plastic trays holding 100 devices each. The cartons are labelled with Toshiba trace-ability data and codes as well as country of diffusion and country of assembly. The cartons are also labelled with Toshiba’s quality assurance and Toshiba’s guaranteed quality indicators.
Endurance: Laboratory tests on TT transistors showed outstanding endurance levels. These transistors were almost indestructible and extremely rugged well in excess of MIL standards. They withstood endurance tests at high temperatures exceeding the maximum junction temperature quoted in Toshiba’s specifications.
We hope this information is helpful.
In 2011 Toshiba announced the introduction of the TTC5200 and its PNP complementary TTA1943 as a replacement for the highly popular 2SC5200 and 2SA1943.
The new TT devices will only be diffused and assembled in Japan while the older 2S devices would be manufactured in China as well as Japan. The new TT devices will use the latest Toshiba important advances in technology and manufacturing such as diffusion, bonding, thermal conduction and encapsulation. All devices are TO-3P(L) case style (also known as Toshiba 2-21F1A).
The main differences between TT and 2S are:
TTC5200 2SC5200 TTA1943 2SA1943
hFE (min) 80 55 80 55
Cob (pF) 145 200 240 360
Diffusion JAPAN - JAPAN -
Assembly JAPAN China or Japan JAPAN China or Japan
Markings Laser engraving
TT devices are Toshiba protected propriety numbering which means NO other manufacturer can use that number.
2S devices are JEITA registered number and other manufacturers can also use it.
Toshiba also produces TT numbered devices designated as TTC5200N and TTA1943N manufactured in China in a smaller package TO-3P(N) which is equivalent to JEITA SC-65. These devices are of lower performance than the normal TT parts.
TT and 2S devices typical weight is 9.75g which can sometimes be helpful in detecting counterfeits.
Conclusion: The TT devices are obviously superior and should always be the first choice. Some enthusiasts, in attempting to examine the differences between devices, de-cap and compare the physical size of the silicon die. Such exercise is totally useless since device parameters cannot be guessed from variations in die size (even a 30% difference is not uncommon in manufacturing). On-the-other hand a huge big difference in size would strongly suggest the possibility of counterfeit.
Supply: Toshiba supply TT devices in sealed cartons containing 500 devices. Each carton contains 5 plastic trays holding 100 devices each. The cartons are labelled with Toshiba trace-ability data and codes as well as country of diffusion and country of assembly. The cartons are also labelled with Toshiba’s quality assurance and Toshiba’s guaranteed quality indicators.
Endurance: Laboratory tests on TT transistors showed outstanding endurance levels. These transistors were almost indestructible and extremely rugged well in excess of MIL standards. They withstood endurance tests at high temperatures exceeding the maximum junction temperature quoted in Toshiba’s specifications.
We hope this information is helpful.
Thank you for very helpful information and all your guys here. I read this thread many and many times that make me away from Fake popular C5200/A1943. Fake is flood all around here in my local place and I believe that all around the world as well. Fake is not cause us waste the money but make people destroy everything in their life time, money, economic. Why Toshiba is not act to protect their reputation and give any information about their genuine product such as lot of production and appearance etc.
The TTC series has horrid SOA , only 400 ma @ 100v. The die sizes change to reduce cost for consumer type multi channel amps, and not for improving performance. I mentioned this elsewhere on this forum , on the subject of old Toshiba types, that is 2SA1302 , 2SC3281 still made by ON as MJL1302G, MJL3281G. SOA is about 1 A @ 100v
TTC5200 is a “shrunk” version of the original 2SC5200, but supposedly has the same SOA. That may be partially true, as the original C5200 can actually handle more than the spec. Most Toshiba output transistors did - including the C3281 and the old faithful D424. That gives the TTC less margin to work with. It will handle less than the original, but usually enough to “meet spec”.
When Motorola acquired Toshiba’s original C3281 tech under license, Tosh was still making them. Motorola did what they usually do - go big or go home, and made theirs handle a full “200 watts” as opposed to the 150 that all Jap TO-264’s topped out at. Bigger die to insure that theirs would take more on the spec sheet and in the real world. This resulted in more capacitance to drive, which PA equipment manufacturers didn’t seem to mind. Later they introduced the 0281 which put the die size back down close to the original Toshiba. If you are looking for a “direct sonic equivalent” to the old Tosh C3281 the MJW0281 should be used. It‘s a “150 watt“ die, with similar capacitance to the old Tosh parts. If you want something to take as much of a beating as possible, use MJL3821. If you need even more these days there is the 4281. It has improved voltage handling - but tends to be a bit worse in other areas and does cost a lot more.
When Motorola acquired Toshiba’s original C3281 tech under license, Tosh was still making them. Motorola did what they usually do - go big or go home, and made theirs handle a full “200 watts” as opposed to the 150 that all Jap TO-264’s topped out at. Bigger die to insure that theirs would take more on the spec sheet and in the real world. This resulted in more capacitance to drive, which PA equipment manufacturers didn’t seem to mind. Later they introduced the 0281 which put the die size back down close to the original Toshiba. If you are looking for a “direct sonic equivalent” to the old Tosh C3281 the MJW0281 should be used. It‘s a “150 watt“ die, with similar capacitance to the old Tosh parts. If you want something to take as much of a beating as possible, use MJL3821. If you need even more these days there is the 4281. It has improved voltage handling - but tends to be a bit worse in other areas and does cost a lot more.
These are even smaller die parts for consumer products. The SOA nosedives by 40 v drop , and is only 350ma @ 100v, compared to 1A @ 100V for a good part. They often go into multi channel amps where the supply is not much over +/- 40V. Low SOA parts are very unforgiving in an experimenter's environment, one burst of oscillation and it's over. Best to look at offerings from ON semi or Sanken . Sanken may be less common in some countries, but Profusion has real Sanken and some older Toshiba types made by UTC, and serves much of Europe and Asia.
The 2S types are all the original size die, but getting harder to get all the time. Since the introduction of the TT types, I’ve just been buying the Fairchild versions instead of Toshiba.
The 0002 types may not even be 5200 derivatives. They probably started from something else that wasn’t even as good to begin with.
Many Fairchild power transistors have been on the axe since onsemi bought them out. The Toshiba 2sa1943n/2sc5200n seem to be the most economical of the lot that are available today. Watch out with the distributors mixing up the package description since Toshiba does not use the to-264 package name Something like to-3p(l) or 2-21f1a
If a device with a smaller die size can have the same thermal rating as a larger counterpart, it may imply :
1) a higher allowable maximum temperature ( unlikely ? ) ;
2) a silver epoxy with higher thermal conductivity ( even higher silver content and hence increased costs ? ) :
3) a thinner epoxy layer thickness ( reduce flexibility to accomodate differential expansion between copper thermal pad and silicon substrate ).
Or I miss something else ?
Patrick
1) a higher allowable maximum temperature ( unlikely ? ) ;
2) a silver epoxy with higher thermal conductivity ( even higher silver content and hence increased costs ? ) :
3) a thinner epoxy layer thickness ( reduce flexibility to accomodate differential expansion between copper thermal pad and silicon substrate ).
Or I miss something else ?
Patrick