24-Bit/192 kHz USB Audio Interface for vinyl A/D archiving?

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#122
for the number of bits indicates not only the dynamic range but also how many sound levels there are. . and the sampling indicates not only high sound frequencies that can be reproduced but also how many times per second the sound is sampled. and sampling frequency then is also said to affect lower frequencies. then there is a little mystery the sound on the vinyl seems to contain something that the audio cd does not contain. for example, male voices sound deeper and human than than 16 bit. it is simply something that is missing in the CD sound even if no measuring instrument shows it. so now I'm talking about a vinyl record that has an analogous origin as an analog master tape. DSD Has a sampling frequency of 2.8224 MHz. DSD is considered to sound more analog than PCM except possibly with 384Khz. The highest on PCM is 384 khz also called DXD. and then the purpose is obviously not to reproduce as high a sound frequency as possible. but rather that the number of samples is considered important and to use as mild filter as possible there is a discussion about DSD or DXD sounds best in the digital world
 
#123
Spider100 said:
for the number of bits indicates not only the dynamic range but also how many sound levels there are.
Click to expand...
Incorrect. There are no "sound levels". The number of bits indicates the theoretical dynamic range of undithered quantization only.
Spider100 said:
. and the sampling indicates not only high sound frequencies that can be reproduced but also how many times per second the sound is sampled.
Click to expand...
Sampling frequency divided by 2 is the "Nyquist Frequency". The highest frequency that can be sampled without aliasing must be below the Nyquist Frequency. The sampling frequency is defined as how many times per second the signal is sampled.
Spider100 said:
and sampling frequency then is also said to affect lower frequencies.
Click to expand...
Said by whom? Aliasing is the only issue here, and its solved by appropriate filtering. Lower frequencies farther below Nyquist are not aliased.
Spider100 said:
then there is a little mystery the sound on the vinyl seems to contain something that the audio cd does not contain. for example, male voices sound deeper and human than than 16 bit. it is simply something that is missing in the CD sound even if no measuring instrument shows it. so now I'm talking about a vinyl record that has an analogous origin as an analog master tape.
Click to expand...
The above is subjective opinion that is not supported by...well, anything.
Spider100 said:
DSD Has a sampling frequency of 2.8224 MHz. DSD is considered to sound more analog than PCM except possibly with 384Khz.
Click to expand...
Again, subjective opinion, no actual evidence.
Spider100 said:
The highest on PCM is 384 khz also called DXD.
Click to expand...
No, DXD (Digital eXtreme Definition) is a digital audio format that originally was developed by Philips and Merging Technologies for editing high-resolution recordings recorded in Direct Stream Digital (DSD). In practice, most DSD productions if recorded in DSD will be converted to PCM because that's what all DAWs work with, then re-converted back to DSD for release. But DXD and PCM are NOT the same thing.
Spider100 said:
and then the purpose is obviously not to reproduce as high a sound frequency as possible. but rather that the number of samples is considered important and to use as mild filter as possible
Click to expand...
This is basically gibberish.
Spider100 said:
there is a discussion about DSD or DXD sounds best in the digital world
Click to expand...
Yes, lots of discussions, no actual scientific controlled testing to support any of it. Just tons of biased opinions.
 
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#124
The digital versions of most commercial recordings are available on line, with a good resolution, and all the noise removed.
I suggest you download and listen a few before starting this project of converting your collection to digital.
You will find that you need not deal with worn records, playback noise and so many other issues.
The discussion about loss less formats, resolution, and so many things, is a recurring topic here and in many other forums. Read them to get a better idea on how to proceed.
 
#126
I've had excellent results using one of these... Sony PCM D100
I connect from phonostage to analog in and record in 2.8Mhz DSD, then if needed software de-click
They've been out for a while now and occasionally used one's come up on e-bay
They come with a wireless remote to pause ect. They're a pretty good little unit

1643273688244.png


Specifications​

Audio Formats Supported
Record: DSD, WAV and MP3; Playback: DSD, WAV, FLAC, MP3, WMA (Non DRM), AAC-LC (Non-DRM)

Built-in Mic
Electret condenser microphones. Max input level: 128 dB SPL. Frequency response 20 Hz to 20 kHz

Mic Input
(Stereo Mini Jack) Input impedance: 22 k ohm, Rated input level: 2.5 mV; Minimum input level: 0.7 mV

Line Input (Analogue)
(Stereo Mini Jack) Input impedance: 22k ohm; Minimum input level: 450mV; Rated input level: 2.0V

Line Input (Optical)
Optical Digiital Input: Input level: -27 dBm to -14 dBm; Emission wavelength: 660 nm

Line Output (Analogue)
Output impedance: 220 ohms;Output level: 1.7V; Load impedance 22k ohms

Line Output (Optical)
Output level: -21dBm to -15 dBm

Headphone Output
Stereo Mini Jack; Maximum output: 25 mW + 25 mW or more; Load impedance: 16 ohms

Frequency Response
20Hz - 50kHz (Line In) @ DSD2.8 ; 20Hz - 45kHz (Line In) @ LPCM 192kHz/24bit

Sampling Frequency
DSD 2.8MHz; LPCM 192kHz/176.4kHz/96kHz/88.2kHz/48kHz/44.1kHz

Quantization
16-bit LPCM, 24-bit PCM and 1-bit DSD

S/N Ratio
DSD 98dB or greater; LPCM 24 bit 96dB or greater

Total Harmonic Distortion (Line Input to Line Output)
DSD: 0.008% or below (1kHz, 22kHz LPF)
LPCM: 0.006% or below (1kHz, 22kHz LPF)

Wow and Flutter
Below measurable limit (less than +/-0.001%W.Peak)

USB
High-speed USB 2, mass storage class

Power Consumption
0.75w

Power Requirements
Four AA size Alkaline batteries (supplied).
Four AA NiMH Rechargeable batteries (optional)

DC Input Jack
6V

Battery Life
25 hrs @44.1kHz/16 bit; 18 hrs @192kHz/24bit or 12 hrs @ DSD2.8

Memory Stick Slot
Accepts SD, SD-HC,SD-XC, Memory Stick Pro Duo and Memory Stick Pro-HG

Dimensions
2 7/8" x 6 1/8" x 1 1/4" (w x h x d) not including projecting parts and controls

Weight
13.9 oz (including batteries)
 
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#127
If the person wants sound recorded before 1975 or so, it will be analog.
And you will be lucky to get digital copies made from the master tapes, particularly after some fires in vaults which happened long back.
Digital recording became common around then, but customers had to wait till about 1990 to get digitally recorded music as CDs, I will not say anything about CDs issued before that, as my memory is hazy about that topic..
 
#131
jaddie said:
You never need higher than CD quality for any LP, as all LPs are below CD quality.

However, there is one reason to capture vinyl higher than 48kHz, and that's if you plan to use a de-click process, many of which focus on the extreme high frequency produced by a record click, so another octave may be useful, or not at all depending on the de-click algorithm. Other than that, response beyond 24kHz is completely unnecessary for digitizing vinyl.

The capability of vinyl to reproduce high frequencies decreases rapidly with rising frequency and progressively inner grooves due to physical constraints of a finite stylus in a finite groove. Maximum modulation velocity is a function of frequency and groove location. If the cutting stylus moves too fast due to a combination of frequency and level for a give groove location (you can go faster at the outer edge, much slower on the inner most groove because of the inherent linear groove velocity), the rear facet of the stylus will gouge the groove wall just cut be the forward facet. So the recorded spectrum on vinyl is limited physically, and is maximum only on the outer grooves. The maximum stylus velocity for an outer groove LP is 50cm/S, which will prevent even 20khz from being ever recorded at a level as high as a 1kHz signal. The RIAA curve keeps things in check until about 7 or 7kHz for outside edge grooves, but beyond that highs must be limited in amplitude by other means or the groove cut groove will be damaged in cutting. The result of all of this is that flat response can only be maintained at a level well below maximum output level, thus limiting high level, high frequency content rather effectively. Fortunately, most music has spectral density that also falls rapidly with rising frequency, which is why this all works out well in practice.

The HF content some claim exists on vinyl is often the result of misinterpreting spectrum analysis. The stylus-groove-stylus mechanical system is loaded with distortion mechanisms which grow with rising frequency, and show up as products above 20kHz when the actual modulation is above 6kHz.

The DR of vinyl is limited fist by the vinyl itself, none of which is capable of a full spectrum noise floor even at 12 bits (re: maximum groove velocity of 50cm/S found only on outer grooves). The noise floor is a function of the vinyl surface itself, influenced by vinyl formula and variances in pressing. Then a secondary limitation occurs because of platter rumble, both in the lathe and the reproducing turntable.

As to the viability of interfaces targeted at home recording, pretty much any are fine. Whatever limitations there may be in the A/D or preamps, they are far below vinyl's requirements, especially if you use the Schiit preamp into a line input. The residual noise and distortion of any line level USB interface is orders of magnitude below anything found in the complete vinyl system.

So don't go too exotic.
Click to expand...
The claim that sound quality would be equivalent to 16 bit might apply on a record player for $200 It's probably not a record player for $500 with Ortofon 2M Blue or higher and with a good phono preamp that can bring out more sound details than the one that is, for example, built in in a record player. MOFI was criticized when they made vinyl records by first transferring the sound to DSD from analog master tape which they then made vinyl records from. And then it's probably about DSD 256. . And you are talking about PCM 16 bit. someone on YouTube said between vinyl and analog edition today, it's basically a dead race when it comes to sound quality. But if it's an album from the 70s, the vinyl edition can sound significantly better than a digital edition of the same album
https://audiophilestyle.com/blogs/e...-and-why-the-d-for-digital-in-tbvo-is-silent/
 
#132
Thanks for reviving the thread!

A recent development is the appearence of vinyl dedicated preamp/DSP combination like Parks Audio Waxwing and miniDSP ADept.

Maybe people using these can share their findings and experience using these devices with regards to required digital resolution, perceived sound quality and denoising/decrackling, on the side also with adjustment help and other fesatures provided.

Thanks!
Winfried
 
#133
Spider100 said:
The claim that sound quality would be equivalent to 16 bit might apply on a record player for $200 It's probably not a record player for $500 with Ortofon 2M Blue or higher and with a good phono preamp that can bring out more sound details than the one that is, for example, built in in a record player. MOFI was criticized when they made vinyl records by first transferring the sound to DSD from analog master tape which they then made vinyl records from. And then it's probably about DSD 256. . And you are talking about PCM 16 bit. someone on YouTube said between vinyl and analog edition today, it's basically a dead race when it comes to sound quality. But if it's an album from the 70s, the vinyl edition can sound significantly better than a digital edition of the same album
https://audiophilestyle.com/blogs/e...-and-why-the-d-for-digital-in-tbvo-is-silent/
Click to expand...
Since you revived the thread, and I don't have time to re-read, what follows is probably a rehash.

I'm referring to the physical capabilities and limitations of the vinyl system. The above claims are entirely subjective, and some of them extend the vinyl signal chain far beyond just the lacquer master.

A physical 45/45 stereo groove with RIAA eq has a set of limitations that are neither debatable nor surmountable. A cutting stylus has necessary dimension, and limitations as to how fast it can move before the rear fascet collides with the groove wall it just cut deforming it. That creates a hard limit in response, represented as a falling curve, as a result of the increasing stylus velocity required for rising frequencies at progressively higher levels of modulation. And that means the frequency response of the system must be limited at higher modulation levels or severe distortion results. The obvious solution is to record at lower levels so that limit isn't hit, but there is also a physical noise floor, first on the master lacquer, second due to impurities in the vinyl used, and of course the mechancs of the turntable, including the lathe.

But there are other limits as well. There is a physical maximum modulation at lower frequencies that, if exceeded, creates an unplayable groove. Telarc found this point and passed it with their pressing of their digital recording of cannon shots for the 1812 Overture. Very few carts and stylus combinations would track that without leaving the groove. A second part of that problem is that the difference of L and R create vertical groove modulation, and clearly, there is a hard limit there too. Considering vertical modulation by itself for an understanding, too much and the cutter stylus with collide with the aluminum substrate of the lacquer on the negative half cycle, and create little or no groove at all on the positive half cycle. Neither is playable, both need to be under control. Again, the obvious solution is to reduce recording level, and again, to reduce the total dynamic range by moving closer to the noise floor.

Assuming vergin vinyl never played, you already have imposed limits, all of which are well below the maximum dynamic range of a properly dithered 16 bit linear digital system at 48KHz. That means capture of vinyl can be fully accomplished without signal modification by that system. And as I said before...somewhere...capturing ultrasonics can sometimes help de-clicking algorithms to work well, but there is no actual audio in ultrasonics on vinyl. There is noise, and there are distortion products caused by the nonlinearities of the system, which RTA peepers think is audio. But the 3rd harmonic of 10kHz is 30KHz, and there is plenty of 3rd harmonic distortion to look at, but no need to digitize. And it's not audible to humans.

This always gets to subjective discussions and subjective evaluations. But these things always get to technical vs subjective, subjectivity is always biased, and unfurtunately that side is under informed about the technology in the first place, i.e. the digital "stairstep" myth, the analog "smooth" myth, and the missing information about what the entire signal chain is on its way to either release format (they are never identical, so comparisons include far more than the medium of release).
 
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#134
The basic info is still missing, but I have to presume the OP actually owns a record player, a PC, and a hifi amp the record player sits with. Why would we change any of that. Just wire it together. If we start swapping the amp for some unknown phono stage, we have lost the OPs sound. Then if we buy another DAC, why are we not using the one the PC already has. It's onboard capability, or that of a soundcard. We could probably shuffle through 52 cards and incur no real financial loss. Or notice any real difference, compared to putting that money into cleaning the records.

I feel this thread needs a course correction.
 
#135
Ok, but all the quality limitations of a digital transfer of vinyl rest on the vinyl side. All modern sound cards are "good enough". But optimal vinyl playback is non-trivial. The geometry has to be right. All of it. And mostly, nobody even checks. The EQ must track the RIAA curve, and as a result of carts, loading, lousy preamps, etc., it usually doesn't, and nobody bothers to check. Then tone arm and platter physical performance, preamp noise and headroom, and on and on, and nobody even checks any of it. Instead the zero in on stuff that absolutely doesn't matter, like sampling rate, bit depth, digital format, etc. All the damage is done way before any of that, and in far greater degree than any digital thing could ever do.

But hey. Digits=bad. Analog=good. Even if it doesn't really.

Sorry for the old-guy snark, but this stuff makes me nuts.
 
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#136
24-bit makes sense only if one wants to do signal processing in the digital domain (de-clicking, de-noising, level matching, filtering). For me, not doing any of these, a 16-bit 48 kHz device like this is more than sufficient. It has a built-in phono preamplifier for more convenient recording, headphones output, clipping indicator, input level control...
 

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#138
lcsaszar said:
24-bit makes sense only if one wants to do signal processing in the digital domain (de-clicking, de-noising, level matching, filtering).
Click to expand...
It does't matter. All of those processes will be hosted within a DAW, and all DAWs have internal 32 bit floating point or 64 bit floating point math. You can literally do anything in that space, the dynamic range is far, far beyond 24 bit linear.
 
#139
I think digital versions of most recordings would be available, maybe for a fee, so the need for converting to digital is mostly not needed.

And you must keep the current and future capabilities of the playback devices in mind.

I prefer PC as the processor, many choices of software, and not tied to a hardware which is prone to end of life issues are attractive to me.
 
#140
My system uses DSP and is all digital and I still play vinyl. This has proven to be a bit of a challenge getting analog source material into the digital signal chain at a quality level that makes the effort worthwhile.

I recently cobbled together an AK5572EN based dual mono ADC using my own analog processing, metering and modules I purchased from Kaamos Tech in the UK. For the solutions I have tried so far this is by far the best sounding and was the least expensive. I can recommend their ADC related products.

https://kaamostech.com/

I am running them at 192K and 24 bits and am thrilled with the performance. For transfers to digital you would need to convert SPDIF to USB I suppose, there are modules available on Amazon that seem to do OK in this regard. (I have a no name one that works.)

I previously used RME hardware which can do the conversion and has USB output options, it is also rather expensive. (ADI-2 PRO FS R BE)
 
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