Sure. Sovtek or EH 6N30P, 6N6, ECC99, 12BH7 are good driver tubes beside others. I'm seeing expensive 6N30's used where E88CC, ECC82/6SN7 &co (some of them Russian, triode wires pentodes, etc) would have more than sufficient drive, gain, sound, durability, noise. We are not putting them in rockets or nuclear plants where they need them to work under high stress, pulses, heat, dissipation and so on. I feel any such tube over 50eur is more of a fashion show than technical necessity in pro audio or audiophile stuff.
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Ok.
Thank you for your answer, but from my own test with all the tube you referenced no one does behave as 6h30pDR ( even the Sovtek/EH are a bit different from the DR i've seen): 6n6/ecc99 doesn't have the same rp i won't even talk about the 12bh7 ( which can be nice in a White cathode follower though).
I'm not arguing for the DR (i've already explained they are way overpriced for me) but the closest you can find is still a 6H30p-EV (new prod). And i'm not telling any of the tube you mentionned aren't good ones too (i use most of them) more than it is application dependent.
And about the 'need' for one reference in a particular circuit well, let's say if a designer choosen a kind of tube there is usually valid engineering reason
( hopefully! And whatever it is!).
Defining a group of components as being 'good enough' for the task is fine but there is ( and will be) always exceptions and in practice this lead to other plain rubbish behavior too me (eg: why is there only maybe 5 types of tubes used in guitar preamp? And less than 10 in power stage? All this leading to speculations on the 'best' of this types and prices being crazy for them?).
Thank you for your answer, but from my own test with all the tube you referenced no one does behave as 6h30pDR ( even the Sovtek/EH are a bit different from the DR i've seen): 6n6/ecc99 doesn't have the same rp i won't even talk about the 12bh7 ( which can be nice in a White cathode follower though).
I'm not arguing for the DR (i've already explained they are way overpriced for me) but the closest you can find is still a 6H30p-EV (new prod). And i'm not telling any of the tube you mentionned aren't good ones too (i use most of them) more than it is application dependent.
And about the 'need' for one reference in a particular circuit well, let's say if a designer choosen a kind of tube there is usually valid engineering reason
( hopefully! And whatever it is!).
Defining a group of components as being 'good enough' for the task is fine but there is ( and will be) always exceptions and in practice this lead to other plain rubbish behavior too me (eg: why is there only maybe 5 types of tubes used in guitar preamp? And less than 10 in power stage? All this leading to speculations on the 'best' of this types and prices being crazy for them?).
No i don't think you are nut, and yes you can achieve more or less the same by //ing some other references but:
It ask for more space within the box, more heat generated, more heater current, the need to find balanced section or balanced pair ( if design is differential),...
Overall i'm not sure it is not less costly to use a ( new production) EH or Sovtek 6h30...
And it is exactly my point about this reference and possible substitution.
It ask for more space within the box, more heat generated, more heater current, the need to find balanced section or balanced pair ( if design is differential),...
Overall i'm not sure it is not less costly to use a ( new production) EH or Sovtek 6h30...
And it is exactly my point about this reference and possible substitution.
Have read somewhere the DR one was ok, but nothing special. The non DR being simply unlistenable.... but you know the fames and merchands that abuse fragile enthusiasts...
It is certainly not a Bendix 6900....
It is certainly not a Bendix 6900....
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That is a sorta of 5687 on steroid build like a tank and very non microphonics, you can drop them on th floor they do not break...but the wallet. Rated 10 000 hours iirc but lasted eventually more... iirc what I readed.
Who told you that Diyiggy? About 6n30p being unlistenable? Have you direct experience with them?
Bendix done a fair amount of tube in EU post WW2.
Bendix done a fair amount of tube in EU post WW2.
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Readed that on french forums. Frenchs are tubes enthusiasts from a long time thanks to easily avaliable writted review and technical paper by Jean Hiraga... they washed to death all the good european tubes and eventually good americans and Japanese tubes to death before sliding to russians less good fab tubes due to massive aviability when russian federation collapsed after Berlin wall fall and then democratic prices.
Some do know things and eventually the less good of them made amps like Jadis... I remenbered a guy saying that just the DR was good for hifi but nothing special extra with it but the prices when easily avialable back then... which is not the 6900 Bendix (geme)
Some do know things and eventually the less good of them made amps like Jadis... I remenbered a guy saying that just the DR was good for hifi but nothing special extra with it but the prices when easily avialable back then... which is not the 6900 Bendix (geme)
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Hmmm.
I'm a bit reluctant to agreed with some french's guru opinions on things ( and why i'm not active on french forum anymore).
Some guys are very good designers i agree ( not often the one you hear/read the most though), most of the others have vested interest in the 'game'...
Anyway, i would try in a circuit designed for them before bursting the reference into flame. Sure if you swap them into a circuit not designed around them isn't going to be a great success imho ( with a rp in the vicinity of 850r there might be some surprise in some circuits).
So i would say try them by yourself in a circuit designed for them, then report back your own findings. 😉
I'm a bit reluctant to agreed with some french's guru opinions on things ( and why i'm not active on french forum anymore).
Some guys are very good designers i agree ( not often the one you hear/read the most though), most of the others have vested interest in the 'game'...
Anyway, i would try in a circuit designed for them before bursting the reference into flame. Sure if you swap them into a circuit not designed around them isn't going to be a great success imho ( with a rp in the vicinity of 850r there might be some surprise in some circuits).
So i would say try them by yourself in a circuit designed for them, then report back your own findings. 😉
At least, frenchs are certainly not worse than others and eventually a guy that tested both in real life said that... certainly japoneses know nothing about hifi too.
Experience also the 6900 by yourself it will be a safer way to check ... same price than the DR today...
Experience also the 6900 by yourself it will be a safer way to check ... same price than the DR today...
Not to hijack the thread, but since pricing threads always go off the rails... here goes.
Can anyone explain why 6922 is so much more expensive (5 to 8 times the cost) for an equivalent 6DJ8 on average? Is the MOJO that much better?
Can anyone explain why 6922 is so much more expensive (5 to 8 times the cost) for an equivalent 6DJ8 on average? Is the MOJO that much better?
Diyiggy,
I did not made a reference to DR when i talked about you to try them in a circuit: i was thinking about a new production to try in a circuit designed around them.
My point is: we will always find someone who disliked something and prefered an other one. This is all so subjective... But usually this doesn't take everything into account: the circuit is rarely defined when someone say this kind of things.
And in my experience the circuit and how optimized it is have far more effect on sound than the components used in them ( except if there is gross issues with circuits or components/mismatch,...).
So why i suggest you to try by yourself: you'll have hands on variable to adjust and see/feel by yourself if it is 'unlistenable' or not.
Don't forget people tendency to differentiate themself from the crowd too: funny the guy proposed a different tube but... in the same price range.
If he had suggested something still produced or affordable i could gives more weight to his opinion but if he just told this one is THE one the other is sh.t, this doesn't have more interest to me than the opinion of anyone doing opamp or tube rolling/swapping in a circuit.
I'm sure the Bendix 6900 is a 'good tube' but no i won't try it cause i'm not a dentist and already have reference i know and which are not obsolete ( the only times i use obsolete components is when i've been able to stock those components in 'large' numbers, and with tubes this usually limit to non audio tubes or Russian's one which where a steal not so long ago).
And as i've said i'm more interested in circuits than in components even if sometimes you need a 'special' one ( special by it's parameters, rarity or whatever).
I did not made a reference to DR when i talked about you to try them in a circuit: i was thinking about a new production to try in a circuit designed around them.
My point is: we will always find someone who disliked something and prefered an other one. This is all so subjective... But usually this doesn't take everything into account: the circuit is rarely defined when someone say this kind of things.
And in my experience the circuit and how optimized it is have far more effect on sound than the components used in them ( except if there is gross issues with circuits or components/mismatch,...).
So why i suggest you to try by yourself: you'll have hands on variable to adjust and see/feel by yourself if it is 'unlistenable' or not.
Don't forget people tendency to differentiate themself from the crowd too: funny the guy proposed a different tube but... in the same price range.
If he had suggested something still produced or affordable i could gives more weight to his opinion but if he just told this one is THE one the other is sh.t, this doesn't have more interest to me than the opinion of anyone doing opamp or tube rolling/swapping in a circuit.
I'm sure the Bendix 6900 is a 'good tube' but no i won't try it cause i'm not a dentist and already have reference i know and which are not obsolete ( the only times i use obsolete components is when i've been able to stock those components in 'large' numbers, and with tubes this usually limit to non audio tubes or Russian's one which where a steal not so long ago).
And as i've said i'm more interested in circuits than in components even if sometimes you need a 'special' one ( special by it's parameters, rarity or whatever).
That's exactly the point. You can make a bad amp using the best tube in the world, and make a good sounding amp with average tubes. It's all about how you use them. I would always spend the money on quality output transformers, in my opinion that's the component with the biggest impact on sound quality, given a properly designed circuit.
Totally agree with you: transformers are 90% responsible of the 'tube' sound.
Well known fact in proworld ( studio) and why some transformers as parts have more value than the whole equipment they was initially used in...
Interesting to see N.Pass reintroduce their use in SS amp and reactions of users/builders about it.
Well known fact in proworld ( studio) and why some transformers as parts have more value than the whole equipment they was initially used in...
Interesting to see N.Pass reintroduce their use in SS amp and reactions of users/builders about it.
That is my problem too, I am not dentist either and worse than this I became poor enough not to have teeth anymore.
Of course I assumed the guy was testimoning honestly and knew about circuitries.
Off topic and my very basic thougths: the tubes for me are an old dream as I was a kid already hifi fan. Never had the monney to try the good design when growing as I knew good tubes becàme expensive and good traffo as Tango or tribute cost more than teeth I need and I eventually understand why dentists can afford them, I mean the tubes, instead.
Most of the good tubes are not sourcable anymore, the brandnew are bad because it would be too much expensive to make the rigth way. How to find a 5687 csf thomson, good GE Jan, a good nos 6072A less expensive than a teeth,etc? It does not exist anymore, tubes are faked because it is big monney...
Price grows because rarity even with tubes that are not so good for audio like 6922 and E88Cc that are more industrial tube that have their highs that climb rapidely after few hundred hours being microphonic.Why they are expensive ? Because the good ECC88, E188CC, 7803 became rare and in USA and Asia they like european and especially deutsh tube because they think it is a Mercedes. The experienced guys knew instead the ECC88 made in Herleen for instance were way better than for instance the telefunkens made less expensive around the getter despite Philips matrice tools and etc, etc.
So it is a hype, fame... tubes became too much expensive for what it is and a snobery. I think when one will not find good 6dj8 or 6np23 EV, you will have yet people that play with crappy tubes arguing the good voltage operation point where they sound the best and soon without having hearing the best not sourcable anymore tubes.
I had the chance to find a good Herleen 73 made E188CC NOS, one tube, and thanks to the help of friends and members here I will made it mu followed with a simple dc film cap as I can not afford a traffo.
At this point, I am aware it is certainly more to follow that old kid dream that sounding efficienty as it will be an I/V stage for a tda1541A.
Of course I assumed the guy was testimoning honestly and knew about circuitries.
Off topic and my very basic thougths: the tubes for me are an old dream as I was a kid already hifi fan. Never had the monney to try the good design when growing as I knew good tubes becàme expensive and good traffo as Tango or tribute cost more than teeth I need and I eventually understand why dentists can afford them, I mean the tubes, instead.
Most of the good tubes are not sourcable anymore, the brandnew are bad because it would be too much expensive to make the rigth way. How to find a 5687 csf thomson, good GE Jan, a good nos 6072A less expensive than a teeth,etc? It does not exist anymore, tubes are faked because it is big monney...
Price grows because rarity even with tubes that are not so good for audio like 6922 and E88Cc that are more industrial tube that have their highs that climb rapidely after few hundred hours being microphonic.Why they are expensive ? Because the good ECC88, E188CC, 7803 became rare and in USA and Asia they like european and especially deutsh tube because they think it is a Mercedes. The experienced guys knew instead the ECC88 made in Herleen for instance were way better than for instance the telefunkens made less expensive around the getter despite Philips matrice tools and etc, etc.
So it is a hype, fame... tubes became too much expensive for what it is and a snobery. I think when one will not find good 6dj8 or 6np23 EV, you will have yet people that play with crappy tubes arguing the good voltage operation point where they sound the best and soon without having hearing the best not sourcable anymore tubes.
I had the chance to find a good Herleen 73 made E188CC NOS, one tube, and thanks to the help of friends and members here I will made it mu followed with a simple dc film cap as I can not afford a traffo.
At this point, I am aware it is certainly more to follow that old kid dream that sounding efficienty as it will be an I/V stage for a tda1541A.
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So true but unfortunately expensive when it gets to certain quality. Transformers make or break the project, i find them to have much, much bigger influence on sound than any tube if circuit is designed competently. I often like 50% Ni core content, sometimes 80%, not so much amorphous cores as used by Lundahl. Guess Ni or even a bit of Co some manufacturers use in laminations is not practical for power output transformers because of very high cost compared to M6 or similar.
Do small signal tubes really need that low output impedance and high current, i thought this is reserved for 600 ohms inputs? Most audiophile preamps i've seen on schematics have high input impedance directly into tube grid, with output either transformer coupled or directly from the tube. Tube power amps normally have high enough input impedance to be driven directly from "low" current/medium out imp. tubes like ECC82, 6CG7 (btw, it tests as noval 6SN7), ECC88, 6072, etc. The only place i've seen the need for hefty drive are some output tubes.
I've not enough experience with amplifier output transformers so i will trust your opinion on it.
About small signal transformers i mostly agree. I must confess i like Lundahl i use and used because they seems to have 'no sound' of their own ( relative to other modern transformers).
I've used Cinemag, Jensen, Carnhill, Edcor and Sowters and there is difference between them but they are tiny in my view, however they differ in character which may change preference on a given circuit to me.
That said if i want 'real' character, nothing beat 'vintage' transformers in my view ( pre 80's). And no need for the 'golden' brands. I really liked some Melodium and Girardin ( French brands). I like Utc too ( got 4 sets of iron for Rca Ba21a and despite being a 60's design i find they have a distinct sonic imprint despite being 'cleaner' than their predecessor from 40's/50's).
Spot on. Tube gear i own/designed is for recording/mixing/mastering, not for reproduction ( the Ba21a could be used for mc cartdridge if i decide on a passive riaa stage one day...).
600 ohm yes, sometimes even less: Abbey Road 'historical' gear ( the one used by G.Martin for the Beatles) was normalised at 200 ohms in house. Of course it wasn't able to output very high voltage ( they didn't use bridge but rather matched impedance) but still you need a bit of current drive ability. And as you could use with modern standard you needs +24dbu ability for voltage too... and i like to have a bit of headroom too.
And i don't use always transformers too to increase current drive, so yes i find the 6h30p a practical tube for my own way to do things.
I agree this isn't needed for a typical hifi but that is not the use i have for them, and i stated it right from the start.
That said i agree with you that in a more traditional circuit this kind of tube isn't needed and a 6sn7 with a 'good' transformer can saturate most ss gear.
The Ba21a use two 12ay7 ( 6072) and can happily drive +18dbm. Not bad for a tube i see more as a microphone's valve. (Damned guitarist who boughts all the GE 5stars for their phase splitters! Now it's difficult to find some for Akg C-12! And the guys don't get they loose in that game as we can't use the microphone to track their Fender...which doesn't really benefits from the low noise and microphonic they have: i find the 'crunch' to kill the low noise and microphonic in guitar amplifier is part of the 'sound' in my view ( when reasonable of course...)).
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Hard to generalise about the sound of amorphous cores. Even Lundahl transformers using the uncut cores sound dramatically better than their cut versions. Too many factors apart from core material play a role of course. The better Lundahls also use better wire which makes comparisons even harder.
The bulk of commercial tube preamps seem to be used together with solid state power amps. Low output impedance is therefore a must.
Imho 6h30p is one of the least tubey sounding tubes. Very low distortion, reasonably low microphony, excellent subjective bass, not much soul. Unsurpsingly, genuine tube lovers hate it.
Analog_Sa: how do you define a genuine tube lover? 😉
I ask because i think i'm one of them but not the usual way: for recording gear i swear by them ( mic, preamp, compressors, eq,..) but not for the reproduction side ( even if i enjoy listening to good preamp/poweramp vaccum powered from time to time).
Your description of 6h30p is inline with my own feelings. A bit like my Ortofon OM40: sound so clean it is often hated and compared to digital...
I ask because i think i'm one of them but not the usual way: for recording gear i swear by them ( mic, preamp, compressors, eq,..) but not for the reproduction side ( even if i enjoy listening to good preamp/poweramp vaccum powered from time to time).
Your description of 6h30p is inline with my own feelings. A bit like my Ortofon OM40: sound so clean it is often hated and compared to digital...