Hi,
I have an opportunity to purchase some more speaker drivers, this has been on the backburner for a more than a year now but finally the time has come.
I have finally completed my first sub as well which is just great! My retail bought tower speakers sound cleaner now that they don't have to cover the whole spectrum! So, the lowest octaves are taken care of which is why I am reconsidering my original plan.
Original plan: 3 way tower speaker (1" tweeter, 4" mid-range , 7" mid-woofer)
New plan: 2 way bookshelf (1" tweeter and 5" mid-range) or
Reason being simpler and much cheaper and smaller final speaker as well. What are the possible implications of such a decision? Is my reasoning sound? Room size is about 2500 cu ft.
Many thanks!
I have an opportunity to purchase some more speaker drivers, this has been on the backburner for a more than a year now but finally the time has come.
I have finally completed my first sub as well which is just great! My retail bought tower speakers sound cleaner now that they don't have to cover the whole spectrum! So, the lowest octaves are taken care of which is why I am reconsidering my original plan.
Original plan: 3 way tower speaker (1" tweeter, 4" mid-range , 7" mid-woofer)
New plan: 2 way bookshelf (1" tweeter and 5" mid-range) or
Reason being simpler and much cheaper and smaller final speaker as well. What are the possible implications of such a decision? Is my reasoning sound? Room size is about 2500 cu ft.
Many thanks!
In a room listening a few metres away a 5" midwoofer will only be able to play cleanly at modest volumes. Can be OK sitting close at a desk but less so out in a room. It may be able to play loud enough in terms of average SPL but the peaks will be compromised. For some this isn't an issue but for those that like to hear clean percussion at standard levels it is likely to be. A pair of small 2 ways with a sub is nice small package offering good performance for the money but it is a budget configuration.
I really don't listen at more than 90 dB. Very rarely.. and that too maybe up to 95 dB but that's it. I sit about 7 or 8 feet away from my speakers.
I don't see point of 5" "bass". With a sub going down to 100 hz instead of 54 like my current music room units is doable, but 70 W peak 1/4 W average requires IMHO a 10" or 12" driver. If you're listening to acoustic guitar strumma strumma songwriters you don't need bass, but I listen to piano & organ frequently & do. Piano has big watt peaks, as does all percussion. I used to march cymbals next to a pair of 30" bass drums and like that sound to be realistic, too. 1" Compression Drivers can cross easily at 1200 hz. See Pi speakers 2 3 or 4pi . https://www.pispeakers.com/Products.html
If you don't want to buy a plastic horn or build a cabinet big enough for one, a 3" tweeter in my KLH23 with the 10" woofer is pretty realistic. No domes transmission lines or anything exotic, just a round paper diaphragm.
Besides there are a million 1"+5" speakers go to the dump through charity resale shops daily. Typical package of a cheap home system that the electrolytic caps expire at 8 years. On my TV I use a pair of 1" + 2" + 6" speakers I paid $5 for at Salvation Army resale. Bass is boomy but the 12"x6"x26" cabinet gives enough volume to approximate reality. Why build something the planet is covered with?
If you don't want to buy a plastic horn or build a cabinet big enough for one, a 3" tweeter in my KLH23 with the 10" woofer is pretty realistic. No domes transmission lines or anything exotic, just a round paper diaphragm.
Besides there are a million 1"+5" speakers go to the dump through charity resale shops daily. Typical package of a cheap home system that the electrolytic caps expire at 8 years. On my TV I use a pair of 1" + 2" + 6" speakers I paid $5 for at Salvation Army resale. Bass is boomy but the 12"x6"x26" cabinet gives enough volume to approximate reality. Why build something the planet is covered with?
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How about something in between your two choices - a traditional 6+1.
For a mid budget Jeff baby's Kairos (or Adelphos if you can't manage the slanted baffle) which uses the SB MW16P and TW29R
For a high end then one of the Purifi PTT6.5 based speakers with Raal, Viawave or Bliesma tweeters, you chose.
These will both provide a clean low distortion sound and still have a reasonable amount of headroom when used with a subwoofer (or two).
For a mid budget Jeff baby's Kairos (or Adelphos if you can't manage the slanted baffle) which uses the SB MW16P and TW29R
For a high end then one of the Purifi PTT6.5 based speakers with Raal, Viawave or Bliesma tweeters, you chose.
These will both provide a clean low distortion sound and still have a reasonable amount of headroom when used with a subwoofer (or two).
90 dB average is loud. Standard levels (cinema levels and typical levels for recording and long sessions of concentrated listening) are around 80-85 dB average. Are you referring to average levels which perceived loudness tends to track or some form of, possibly weighted, peak value?
Peak levels when recording are typically set around something like 20 dB above average but some modern popular music has significantly less. Your listening distance is a drop in level in the direct sound (relevant for preserving peaks) of roughly 8 dB from that at 1m. Might be a dB or two of boundary reinforcement at low frequencies. Scroll down here to see the Maximum SPL at 1m plot for a good quality 5" midwoofer. It is well below what would be required to preserve peaks in the direct sound (but it may well sound loud enough!).
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I guess you are correct the 90 dB value is probably actually about 80-85 dB average for me with peaks in the 95 dB range max.
+1 for the 6-1 (with waveguide) option. It brings you more options on integrating the sub and the main speakers (as in lowering the crossover frequency).
I have always tried to avoid multiway speakers and crossovers.
Getting into crossovers and crossover points is expensive and sometimes needs a lot of experimentation and its just more to go wrong.
I tend to stick to full range speakers in a sealed cab.
I have a pair of Fane 12-250TC i na cab and it sounds good. No deep bass but good enough for me.
Getting into crossovers and crossover points is expensive and sometimes needs a lot of experimentation and its just more to go wrong.
I tend to stick to full range speakers in a sealed cab.
I have a pair of Fane 12-250TC i na cab and it sounds good. No deep bass but good enough for me.
While experimenting, I would suggest getting several cheap amps and and active cross-over like the a DCX2496 to work out the cross over points and slope, filtering, eq. Then build the analog version of the active. That would save a lot of time and tinkering.
Hi, thank you for the suggestions everyone! Forgive me if I am uninformed on some of these topics as this is going to be my first speaker
The SB drivers that @Ugg10 suggested are exactly the kind of drivers I'm looking at. What if I go with a 1-6-10? My sub that I built is an 18" dayton ultimax in a sealed cabinet, it takes care of everything below about 80 hertz. Would I need a 10"? or should I just go 1-6?
@nigelwright7557
Hi, that's an interesting solution, but later on as my hobby progresses further but right now I want to experiment with something like DSP Crossovers with my first 2 way or 3 way speaker.
@zhaohuang
I had read up on active cross-overs like the minidsp 2x4, but had decided against it since my PC has everything I need to implement all sorts of XO and PEQ. I bought a UMIK-1 just for this. I have experimented with it and it seems to work great. No need for passive crossovers either! Just a cap to protect the tweeters.
I don't have external amplification and all my sources come from my computer straight to my AVR. Something like the Behringer or minidsp would not be compatible as I would need external amplification. Instead of getting amps and active crossovers, I could use the money towards better drivers as that is my goal. Get the best drivers I can.
The SB drivers that @Ugg10 suggested are exactly the kind of drivers I'm looking at. What if I go with a 1-6-10? My sub that I built is an 18" dayton ultimax in a sealed cabinet, it takes care of everything below about 80 hertz. Would I need a 10"? or should I just go 1-6?
@nigelwright7557
Hi, that's an interesting solution, but later on as my hobby progresses further but right now I want to experiment with something like DSP Crossovers with my first 2 way or 3 way speaker.
@zhaohuang
I had read up on active cross-overs like the minidsp 2x4, but had decided against it since my PC has everything I need to implement all sorts of XO and PEQ. I bought a UMIK-1 just for this. I have experimented with it and it seems to work great. No need for passive crossovers either! Just a cap to protect the tweeters.
I don't have external amplification and all my sources come from my computer straight to my AVR. Something like the Behringer or minidsp would not be compatible as I would need external amplification. Instead of getting amps and active crossovers, I could use the money towards better drivers as that is my goal. Get the best drivers I can.
I would build
Tweeter: Sb26adc in augerpro waveguide
Mid sb17nbac 300- 2500hz
Woofer 2x ss 26w/8534 80-300hz
Because they have really low distorsion
In their passbands.
And build a second sub 🙂
Tweeter: Sb26adc in augerpro waveguide
Mid sb17nbac 300- 2500hz
Woofer 2x ss 26w/8534 80-300hz
Because they have really low distorsion
In their passbands.
And build a second sub 🙂
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To clarify, if you're using a PC, then great. It's basically your active-crosser. I'm PC based too, but the DCX2496 is so easy to use that I haven't bothered to learn the PC equivalent. And you do have external amplification -- it's your AVR! I'm guess you have a 5-7 channel AVR where for all practical purposes, left/right/center/surround/..etc. is just 5-9 channels of amplification.
If you are weighting sound quality over cost and simplicity then a 3 way is preferable to a 2 way. Perhaps the most important driver in a 3 way is the midrange and for home use a 3-5" driver is optimum depending on how it is used. A 6" will tend to have too many resonance issues at high frequencies compromising the tweeter by forcing it to operate too low or simply compromising the midrange sound quality. Look at midfield studio monitors or higher quality home audio towers to get a feel for the configurations that work well.
Opting for a 2 way is a perfectly valid choice if one is prepared to surrender a bit of technical performance for smaller size and lower cost. If sound quality is important don't be tempted by expensive prestige drivers for 2 ways because a competently designed 3 way using decent appropriately sized standard range drivers will outperform it comfortably. However, expensive prestige drivers used appropriately in a 2 way will bring benefits over standard range drivers in a 2 way because the configuration is requiring the drivers to operate over too wide a range. So if a larger 3 way is not an option and the substantial increase in price for a small technical improvement is deemed acceptable then it can be the way to go.
High sound quality below 80 Hz comes from controlling the room response not the quality of speakers. The practical way to achieve this is with multiple distributed subs which are strongly equalised to control the room response by both absorbing and creating sound. A single sub will create a strongly uneven response below 80 Hz. Equalisation can improve this by knocking down the peaks but it can't fill in the dips unlike distributed subs or large passive room treatment devices. High sound quality below 80 Hz requires more than a single sub and equalisation. It is also fairly expensive.
Expensive prestige drivers may make nice possessions but until cost is of little concern they will not be present in designs that seek to maximise sound quality. The better standard range drivers sized and used appropriately are going to be a superior choice.
Decades ago active crossovers became superior to passive crossovers in terms of flexibility and performance. They are also cheaper for manufacturers although not necessarily for DIYers. If you are starting out and reasonably comfortable with computing committing to legacy technology like passive crossovers rather than active may not be wise. This will of course depend on where you want to go and what you want from the hobby. Many here have invested in learning about and building up boxes of components for passive crossovers and are wholly content to stick with them.
Opting for a 2 way is a perfectly valid choice if one is prepared to surrender a bit of technical performance for smaller size and lower cost. If sound quality is important don't be tempted by expensive prestige drivers for 2 ways because a competently designed 3 way using decent appropriately sized standard range drivers will outperform it comfortably. However, expensive prestige drivers used appropriately in a 2 way will bring benefits over standard range drivers in a 2 way because the configuration is requiring the drivers to operate over too wide a range. So if a larger 3 way is not an option and the substantial increase in price for a small technical improvement is deemed acceptable then it can be the way to go.
High sound quality below 80 Hz comes from controlling the room response not the quality of speakers. The practical way to achieve this is with multiple distributed subs which are strongly equalised to control the room response by both absorbing and creating sound. A single sub will create a strongly uneven response below 80 Hz. Equalisation can improve this by knocking down the peaks but it can't fill in the dips unlike distributed subs or large passive room treatment devices. High sound quality below 80 Hz requires more than a single sub and equalisation. It is also fairly expensive.
Expensive prestige drivers may make nice possessions but until cost is of little concern they will not be present in designs that seek to maximise sound quality. The better standard range drivers sized and used appropriately are going to be a superior choice.
Decades ago active crossovers became superior to passive crossovers in terms of flexibility and performance. They are also cheaper for manufacturers although not necessarily for DIYers. If you are starting out and reasonably comfortable with computing committing to legacy technology like passive crossovers rather than active may not be wise. This will of course depend on where you want to go and what you want from the hobby. Many here have invested in learning about and building up boxes of components for passive crossovers and are wholly content to stick with them.
@ DIYhopeful: Go with your original plan. You'll thank yourself for putting in the extra time and money. Better control over crossover frequencies and dispersion; not running drivers too low; etc., etc. Also, I'd recommend bi-amping between the sub and main, approximately 125 to 150 Hz.
It apparently is possible to cover 60 hz to 2500 hz with a 6.5" mid-bass. visaton ws-17e has fs 41 hz qt .61 vas 1.09 cuft 88 db 1w1m . Max rms wattage 60. Xmax 4.5mm That qt would mean a sealed box. https://www.parts-express.com/Visaton-WS17E-6.5-HiFi-Woofer-8-Ohm-292-599
Visaton AL-170 goes to 70 W with same efficiency. More excursion Xmax 11 mm. fs 38 hz
neither very efficient though. You could get up into 95 db or so down to 60 hz with a 10" woofer.
I have to disagree with andy19191. I've been quite happy with 2 ways. My KLH23 (10" + 3") had two crossover components, a couple of small film capacitors blocking the tweeter, and a switch to select how much highs you wanted. My current Peavey SP2(2004) (15"+1.4"CD) is the best sounding speaker I've heard in this flyover state. I test on piano source, very hard to reproduce. SP2 requires no sub backed into a hard plaster wall which accentuates response 40-54 hz. A 1.4" compression driver+ horn can cover down to 800 hz with low distortion if you keep the wattage down.
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Directivity is another thing to consider. Size of the midrange driver pretty much defines it, if you wanna wide directivity then use small one, if you wanna narrower directovity then use big one. 15" midrange is nice, directivity goes up velow 1khz but it is big (needed for the directivity) and requires waveguide above, basically compression driver. Such teo way speaker with subs would make three way system. Three way system is very easily justified for many reasons.