Hi Guys,
I'm building a center channel as a first speaker project, I have found some good priced Audax AP170Z0 Which look super linear from 100Hz to 1000Hz but look abit squirrelly from 1000Hz onward, I have looked for small midranges or full ranges to cross-over from around 1000Hz but most of the smaller full range speakers are low power handeling or have very different sensitivities, (or cost a fortune) I've spent so many hours trying to match up something to go with these I'm starting to loose the will to live.
As a center speaker in home cinema handles most of the vocals in films, I'm looking for something to make voice sound really good and increase immersion in films. Has anyone used these Drivers in a project? what did you pair them with?
I'm building a center channel as a first speaker project, I have found some good priced Audax AP170Z0 Which look super linear from 100Hz to 1000Hz but look abit squirrelly from 1000Hz onward, I have looked for small midranges or full ranges to cross-over from around 1000Hz but most of the smaller full range speakers are low power handeling or have very different sensitivities, (or cost a fortune) I've spent so many hours trying to match up something to go with these I'm starting to loose the will to live.
As a center speaker in home cinema handles most of the vocals in films, I'm looking for something to make voice sound really good and increase immersion in films. Has anyone used these Drivers in a project? what did you pair them with?
Note that I've not built a center channel, however I would probably go for a 5" driver rather than 6.5. 5" in a sealed box will probably get you down to 100 Hz or so F3 (depending on the driver) which should be more than adequate for voice, and you should also be able to find something that is usable out to 2 - 3Khz. If you go with a 5" woofer I think a two way would be the most sensible approach.
What price range were the good priced audax's? This audax looks very suitable Audax HM130C0 5.25" Carbon Fiber Cone Woofer
Some of the SB 5" drivers are quite a bit lower price and I think would be good candidates as well.
Additionally what format speaker were you planning? Centers are always a challenge, MTM's on their side are common, but not really that suitable for center channel unless the lobing can be dealt with.
Tony.
What price range were the good priced audax's? This audax looks very suitable Audax HM130C0 5.25" Carbon Fiber Cone Woofer
Some of the SB 5" drivers are quite a bit lower price and I think would be good candidates as well.
Additionally what format speaker were you planning? Centers are always a challenge, MTM's on their side are common, but not really that suitable for center channel unless the lobing can be dealt with.
Tony.
Thanks Tony, The Audax AP170Z0 I found for £50 I also found some AP130Z0 for £15 each.
The format is my biggest constraint, as the speaker has to fit under my TV, and I can't find a commercial option that is deep enough for my TV Foot to stand on, it has to be 13-15 inches deep and about 20 - 50 inches wide. and about 6-7 Inches tall.
The sofa is directly facing Tv about 9ft away with floorstanders in each corner of room, I don't know enough about speakers design to know how much of an issue lobing may or may not be in this set-up. I am probably looking too deeply into the Frequency response curves, Why is MTM so common surely TMT would make more sense as tweeters shift less air and have lower SPL?
Maybe For best dialogue Something like the 5.25" you suggested and say a smaller 3" that misses the higher part of the spectrum would be fine, I really don't know which way to go, I can't look at anymore datasheets today its making me feel sick
lol.
The format is my biggest constraint, as the speaker has to fit under my TV, and I can't find a commercial option that is deep enough for my TV Foot to stand on, it has to be 13-15 inches deep and about 20 - 50 inches wide. and about 6-7 Inches tall.
The sofa is directly facing Tv about 9ft away with floorstanders in each corner of room, I don't know enough about speakers design to know how much of an issue lobing may or may not be in this set-up. I am probably looking too deeply into the Frequency response curves, Why is MTM so common surely TMT would make more sense as tweeters shift less air and have lower SPL?
Maybe For best dialogue Something like the 5.25" you suggested and say a smaller 3" that misses the higher part of the spectrum would be fine, I really don't know which way to go, I can't look at anymore datasheets today its making me feel sick
lol.
The problem with MTM's on their side is that they have narrow directivity (the M's each side of the tweeter cause a very narrow lobe) so they are great if you are right in front, but if you are off to the sides a bit then you get nulls in the frequency response, which isn't so great for movies when you will probably have people seated other than dead on axis with the centre channel.
You can get around this if you cross over low enough (something you could do with a small full range) or with certain crossover topologies. Maybe have a look at Zaph's site (pretty sure he has some centre channel speakers) to see how he did it.
One thing I've seen but not sure how well it works, is the M's very close together with a small faceplate tweeter nestled above in between them.
I guess a three way with small mid and a tweeter in normal vertical format and a couple of the audax's you posted either side could work ok if crossed over low, but as you already found small fullranges tend to have low efficiency, but this Dayton Audio RS52AN-8 2" Reference Aluminum Dome Midrange may be an option....
I had Phillips dome mids for a long time and really liked them. I've never heard these daytons though.
Tony.
You can get around this if you cross over low enough (something you could do with a small full range) or with certain crossover topologies. Maybe have a look at Zaph's site (pretty sure he has some centre channel speakers) to see how he did it.
One thing I've seen but not sure how well it works, is the M's very close together with a small faceplate tweeter nestled above in between them.
I guess a three way with small mid and a tweeter in normal vertical format and a couple of the audax's you posted either side could work ok if crossed over low, but as you already found small fullranges tend to have low efficiency, but this Dayton Audio RS52AN-8 2" Reference Aluminum Dome Midrange may be an option....
I had Phillips dome mids for a long time and really liked them. I've never heard these daytons though.
Tony.
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There shouldn't be any problem to cross this aerogel cone to an appropriate tweeter in the range we usually see it done. As always with loudspeakers, working without measurements or at least a careful simulation, reduces significantly the chance of a successful implementation. You can use smaller version like 5" and a really small flange tweeter in a vertical orientation and probably meet the height constraint without difficulty and achieve good horizontal sound radiation. Dynaudio used to offer a center channel loudspeaker Audience 42C, so you can do it that way also. Make a couple of experiments and then decide.
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I used to have a very good MTM centre by Mordaunt Short, MS821C. Could have used a pair for stereo, TBH.
Two smallish 4-5" 4 ohm polycone midbasses wired in series. Second order filters. A 47uF you could switch in to lighten the bass.
For voices, I'd hardly think any combing matters. Most voice energy is below 1.5kHz.
The Peerless 830860 midbass might be in a similar vein.
Two smallish 4-5" 4 ohm polycone midbasses wired in series. Second order filters. A 47uF you could switch in to lighten the bass.
For voices, I'd hardly think any combing matters. Most voice energy is below 1.5kHz.
The Peerless 830860 midbass might be in a similar vein.
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hmm Thanks an excellent find, I think that's a winner, I am going to pair it with the 6.5 inch Audax against advice as Its really flat down to 100hz I watch a lot of sci-fi and I think it will pay-off, deep voiced aliens and james earl jones etc.
I've purchased them, The smaller Audax speakers are cheap enough that I can change my mind later. Now I can start thinking about what kind of crossover is best and worry about configuration when the wood arrives.
Shouldn't you ask the first question: is it beneficial to have a centre speaker?
Have a look at a thread in the ESL forum where there is some consensus that if you have quality speakers (ESLs, of course), a virtual centre is as good as it gets.
Integrating Electrostatic Speakers into existing standard speaker home theater
B.
Have a look at a thread in the ESL forum where there is some consensus that if you have quality speakers (ESLs, of course), a virtual centre is as good as it gets.
Integrating Electrostatic Speakers into existing standard speaker home theater
B.
I've had center speakers before, theres something about how my AV chain mixes the audio that makes movies absolutely suck in stereo / quad setup, When you add the center speaker it comes to life as the DSP split the audio properly and send dialogue to it and use the front and rear surrounds properly for directionality effects. Electrostats are well out of my price range, maybe one day.
I think you are right. We had a listen to a 2.1 mix and a 5.1 mix in home cinema of very high MTM quality in a superbly well treated room. Think 4" of rockwool lining. A very revealing acoustic.
The 2.1 was very good for the listener in the sweet spot in the centre, but fell off to the sides. The 5.1 was good for everybody, even to the sides.
I think these Dolby people know what they are doing.
The 2.1 was very good for the listener in the sweet spot in the centre, but fell off to the sides. The 5.1 was good for everybody, even to the sides.
I think these Dolby people know what they are doing.
If you could accept an 8" opening in your cabinet it would be easy to use a 5" midwoofer under one of the new small diameter direct insert 1" NdFeB dome tweeters. A standard TM-stack. You could add 7" woofers on each side of this TM since the crossover frequency is low enough to maintain a point-source illusion.
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There are a few 5" - 6" coaxial speakers which would fit your 6-7" goal.
Download the datasheet for the well reviewed 6” SB16PFC25-4-COAX
At a higher price point, Faital has a 6" coaxial which uses a compression driver... 6HX150
Very nice driver. Still undecided whether the build a WCW with some Daytons, RS180 or 225 or a JBL2226.
I really can't raise up the TV that far, I have an empty cabinet coming exactly the same as the eltaxs I already have which happen to be deep enough for TV, I'm going to chop it in half and slide it under the Foot of the Tv.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
In a seperate issue, Does anyone know any good (preferably UK based) suppliers of Crossover components / kits, like a simple pcb and bags of different reluctors or even just different magnet wire and boobins? etc, I've got resistors and caps but dont want to spend a fortune on spools of magnet wire I'll never use.
I was considering that but or a 6.5" + 4" + Tweeter but It's my first build i'm struggling through designing the crossover now, never mind a 3 way, and I've already bought the drivers.
Build them point to point using tagstrips and ordinary speaker wire to connect between components if necessary. People in Blighty will be better able to tell you of local sources but there should be plenty in the People's Republic of the EU or even further afield. The odd couple of chokes etc not available locally should be able to be imported without too much hip pocket pain.
A full range should work OK.
Those Audax drivers are:
89.3dB efficiency.
6ohm nominal.
Excursion limited to about 96dB with a 100Hz highpass.
Piston Excursion calculator
That max SPL is pretty low, even a tiny 2" full range driver can manage 96dB peaks (and easily, if high passed at 1kHz).
If you apply a bit of baffle step correction, the Audax sensitivity will drop to the mid 80s. That means you don't need a particularly efficient FR driver, so the choice widens.
If you used 4 ohm RF driver, it would get a boost relative to the 6 ohm Audax - so the choice would widen further.
Parts Express has about 20 reasonably priced 2" 4ohm drivers that may be suitable, e.g.
Fountek FR58EX
Tang Band W2-748SG
Tymphany NE65W-04
I own the latter. I like it, but one of the others could be better for the application. IMO, the major pro of each driver is:
The Tymphany ships for free (if you buy a pair via Digikey).
The TB has better sensitivity.
The Fountex is on sale.
The Napoleons use a 4" Tang Band W4-1720 and a small faceplate 1" dome tweeter. Should fit your 6-7" cabinet hole. Add a 6" woofer for deeper bass.
The Napoleons: a Compact 2 Way that punches above its weight
The Napoleons: a Compact 2 Way that punches above its weight
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