Hi, i have some sonus faber grand piano, i've been using it since 2007, i'm very happy with it, i'm using it with a nad 3020.
the speaker is now loosing it's magnific sound.
i'll repair them, but i'm also considering to make a pair of speakers that sound like them. I like warm sounds and i listened to some sonus faber concertino, i think they are amazin, i'd like to build something that sounds like them, but my budget for the drivers is 600$ idk if i should do 2 or 3 way, i think 2 is better for me. I know that it's a small budget for something that it wants to sound like sonus faber, but it's what i have.
Alternatively, i can have lower alternatives, like drivers that sounds as good as kef q350.
(for the 3 way, i don't like sub, i think they are too invesive, they were whe i listened 3 years ago, i'll change my mind if you have a different experience)
Thanks for the support.
the speaker is now loosing it's magnific sound.
i'll repair them, but i'm also considering to make a pair of speakers that sound like them. I like warm sounds and i listened to some sonus faber concertino, i think they are amazin, i'd like to build something that sounds like them, but my budget for the drivers is 600$ idk if i should do 2 or 3 way, i think 2 is better for me. I know that it's a small budget for something that it wants to sound like sonus faber, but it's what i have.
Alternatively, i can have lower alternatives, like drivers that sounds as good as kef q350.
(for the 3 way, i don't like sub, i think they are too invesive, they were whe i listened 3 years ago, i'll change my mind if you have a different experience)
Thanks for the support.
Do speakers know what type of music they play?
Isn't 'warm sound jazz' just electrical signal?
Speakers are either well designed, flat on axis, well behaved off axis, relatively flat phase, low distortion, good transient response...or not. If they are well designed, they play any music well. From choral to metal. Including 'warm sound jazz'.
Isn't 'warm sound jazz' just electrical signal?
Speakers are either well designed, flat on axis, well behaved off axis, relatively flat phase, low distortion, good transient response...or not. If they are well designed, they play any music well. From choral to metal. Including 'warm sound jazz'.
You should be able to copy them if you measure them. You could better tell if you measure all around.
Keep the best, improve the rest
What is broken in the speakers?
I'ld rather look around for a better amplifier and maybe also source.
What is broken in the speakers?
I'ld rather look around for a better amplifier and maybe also source.
That "warm sound" may come down to the large suck out around 3khz.
Sonus Faber Concerto Grand Piano loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Sonus Faber Concerto Grand Piano loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
For Jazz, the key to good listening is to be able to reproduce the acoustic bass well, i.e. a speaker that performs solidly in the lows and mids. Troels has just released a design using SB woofers which should be suitable, and not too expensive: SBA-861-PFCR
from the Stereophile review:
"The Grand Piano is a two-way design utilizing a 7" acrylic-treated paper-cone woofer designed to SF's specs by SEAS, crossed over at 2.3kHz via a first-order (6dB/octave) filter to a ¾" silk-domed, ferrofluid-cooled SEAS tweeter. A 7" passive radiator with a textured cone surface controls the bass backwave."
Hopefully the ferro-fluid can be refreshed, and you can re-evaluate the sound of the speaker? Try something other than the old NAD amp?
"The Grand Piano is a two-way design utilizing a 7" acrylic-treated paper-cone woofer designed to SF's specs by SEAS, crossed over at 2.3kHz via a first-order (6dB/octave) filter to a ¾" silk-domed, ferrofluid-cooled SEAS tweeter. A 7" passive radiator with a textured cone surface controls the bass backwave."
Hopefully the ferro-fluid can be refreshed, and you can re-evaluate the sound of the speaker? Try something other than the old NAD amp?
I agree with the couple comments; what is sounding "wrong"? Ferrofluid drying out changes the frequency response and impedance of the tweeter; it can be replaced. Or indeed the entire tweeter with minor crossover adjustment *edit* though I note that the SF tweeter's faceplate is routed on the bottom.
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A fullrange in a TL is also what i would do. Something like the Mark Audio Alpair 10.3 in a Pencil could be it.
But in general what people call a warm sound is a strong lower mid and midbass and a slightly rolled-off topend, and a lot of harmonic distortion. That is why we who love it use tube amps or class A amp (and not digital amps like the NAD D 3010) or class D amps, and fullrange also has it a bit.
If you go multiway, you can do that also mainly by tuning your crossover that way. Most kits aim at a neutral sound i'm affraid so it will be an own design (or designed specific for you). But a neutral speaker with an amp that has harmonics can give you that warm sound also. So i would tend to go that way if you're not experienced in tuning a own designed crossover your way.
But in general what people call a warm sound is a strong lower mid and midbass and a slightly rolled-off topend, and a lot of harmonic distortion. That is why we who love it use tube amps or class A amp (and not digital amps like the NAD D 3010) or class D amps, and fullrange also has it a bit.
If you go multiway, you can do that also mainly by tuning your crossover that way. Most kits aim at a neutral sound i'm affraid so it will be an own design (or designed specific for you). But a neutral speaker with an amp that has harmonics can give you that warm sound also. So i would tend to go that way if you're not experienced in tuning a own designed crossover your way.
Based on measurements alone, i do not think troel gravesens kit will sound anything near the sonus faber speaker, i think the sonus faber will sound a lot better
I don't see how you could think that, the measurements show for me a serious flawed response above 2kHz with first a big dip and then a fast rising tweeter response. The SBA861 (altough over the budget of the OP) is reasonable flat and should sound way better on paper. And a lot of cheaper kits should also be better.
But something like the Kairos design from Jeff Bagby could be what he wants, It's a great speaker (i heared it, not build it) and it fits more or less his budget.) It's fairly neutral but not cold sounding and with the right amp (preferable class AB or class A i would say) probally a great multiway speaker for this.
Kairos Speaker Kit - Meniscus Audio
http://meniscus.lightningbasehosted.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Kairos-Write-up.pdf
If you want something "warmer", you could vary the directivity / how the sound projects out into the room in the bass vs high frequencies.
For instance, a system with a larger woofer, say 8-10", tuned to give exactly the same sensitivity as a 6" woofer @ 1m, would tend to have a little bit more bass with increased distance because the box size pushes the 2pi steradian radiation pattern down to lower frequencies, similar to wall-loading.
That is then matched with a mid-tweeter mounted in its own somewhat smaller box, so the highs are not reinforced by the woofer baffle.
One idea in my head that I've thinking about for a while are the Dayton 10" PA-style speakers with accordion surround and non-conductive VC former for reduced inductance, + a small Mark Audio full-range as a mid-tweeter.
These would then be crossed at something like 500Hz-1k, allowing much more flexibility with placement and increased distance between woofer and tweeter, as compared to the usual 2-3kHz XO frequency for domes.
For instance, a system with a larger woofer, say 8-10", tuned to give exactly the same sensitivity as a 6" woofer @ 1m, would tend to have a little bit more bass with increased distance because the box size pushes the 2pi steradian radiation pattern down to lower frequencies, similar to wall-loading.
That is then matched with a mid-tweeter mounted in its own somewhat smaller box, so the highs are not reinforced by the woofer baffle.
One idea in my head that I've thinking about for a while are the Dayton 10" PA-style speakers with accordion surround and non-conductive VC former for reduced inductance, + a small Mark Audio full-range as a mid-tweeter.
These would then be crossed at something like 500Hz-1k, allowing much more flexibility with placement and increased distance between woofer and tweeter, as compared to the usual 2-3kHz XO frequency for domes.
problem is if the filter caps are lythics then the capacitance values may have changed. Different tonal at the end than your brain adapt daily. But when you put a 20 yo loudspeaker side to side with the same fresh out from the factory, this one sounds better and you can notice it. And it's not easy to find the exact values of the caps when not brandnew and measured individualy... ask a little work aroun the value marked on body caps on your old 20 yo loudspeaker and check it with fresh caps +/- 15% of the marked value. Not easy, can be expensive as well.
I beleive your NAD is a good candidate for what you ask, more or less warm found and a no brainer amp, I will keep it but if the load is a little too much difficult (too much low impedance or sharp impedance knee in the low end for instance.
DAC is also more than important for the sound. You may have better improvement if not at the level of the SF loudspeakers.
Ferofluid... the BBC dip is so high than a bigger impedance may be not seen with dry FF. I don't know. But it's easy to dismantle then clean the gap and the voice coil of the dome with care. FF is cheap, you can also try to listen to again the loudspeaker when the dryed FF is cleaned.
As said a good loudspeaker is able to play anything as reccorded by the sound engineer, plus/moins the sound signature of your room and your ears age.
After people often don't think about it, but you can keep the good looking and designed SF but swap for an active filter with all the advantages to bring it at anext step level..; not easy, cause monney and time consuming. But you can have a loudspeakers with better group delay, flater phase, manage the acoustic of the room : FIR filter, active crossover managed by a computer with complex convulotion to correct the room and the power response to voice like you prefer : ask one amp per voice and multi^le output DAC (Oktoresearch Pro dac type, Hexasound, DIY 2 output DAC as you have a two way filter...)
Edit : at reading the step response measured by Atkinson, it seems a very well designed filter, I suspect sorted out capacitance value from the lythics caps if not film caps... which will be a good news as the value is not moving in time. Though the low capacitance valiues of the woofer unit are surely lythic caps.
I beleive your NAD is a good candidate for what you ask, more or less warm found and a no brainer amp, I will keep it but if the load is a little too much difficult (too much low impedance or sharp impedance knee in the low end for instance.
DAC is also more than important for the sound. You may have better improvement if not at the level of the SF loudspeakers.
Ferofluid... the BBC dip is so high than a bigger impedance may be not seen with dry FF. I don't know. But it's easy to dismantle then clean the gap and the voice coil of the dome with care. FF is cheap, you can also try to listen to again the loudspeaker when the dryed FF is cleaned.
As said a good loudspeaker is able to play anything as reccorded by the sound engineer, plus/moins the sound signature of your room and your ears age.
After people often don't think about it, but you can keep the good looking and designed SF but swap for an active filter with all the advantages to bring it at anext step level..; not easy, cause monney and time consuming. But you can have a loudspeakers with better group delay, flater phase, manage the acoustic of the room : FIR filter, active crossover managed by a computer with complex convulotion to correct the room and the power response to voice like you prefer : ask one amp per voice and multi^le output DAC (Oktoresearch Pro dac type, Hexasound, DIY 2 output DAC as you have a two way filter...)
Edit : at reading the step response measured by Atkinson, it seems a very well designed filter, I suspect sorted out capacitance value from the lythics caps if not film caps... which will be a good news as the value is not moving in time. Though the low capacitance valiues of the woofer unit are surely lythic caps.
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"The woodshop capability often sets the design direction. "
Bevels....or.....Rounds?
Could-you? Would-you? Build an Avalon style speaker cabinet? (W12.5", H43", D15")
There are several klones of the 3-way Avalon speaker cabinet because the top bevels greatly reduce edge diffraction distortion, and add style. Google will find a few detailed construction threads. Each driver is in a separate sealed volume for superior transients --- smooth Jazz. The wide bandwidth midbass supports Bass Crossover(80-120HZ) ... Tweeter Crossover(1,800Hz - 2,000Hz)
$148 SB29NRX75-8 10" woof
$77 SB17NBAC35-4 6.5" aluminum cone midbass
$55 SB26ADC-4 1" aluminum dome tweeter 4-ohm
---$302---drivers
Bevels....or.....Rounds?
Could-you? Would-you? Build an Avalon style speaker cabinet? (W12.5", H43", D15")
There are several klones of the 3-way Avalon speaker cabinet because the top bevels greatly reduce edge diffraction distortion, and add style. Google will find a few detailed construction threads. Each driver is in a separate sealed volume for superior transients --- smooth Jazz. The wide bandwidth midbass supports Bass Crossover(80-120HZ) ... Tweeter Crossover(1,800Hz - 2,000Hz)
$148 SB29NRX75-8 10" woof
$77 SB17NBAC35-4 6.5" aluminum cone midbass
$55 SB26ADC-4 1" aluminum dome tweeter 4-ohm
---$302---drivers
Avalon style: the thing not easy seems how to put the Mdf piece on the saw table and how to have cut concistency on both sides... If someone find a Youtube, could be nice. There is also the hand technic by T Gravsen but the few photograph make not it so easy to understand. The dark forces at HTGuide didn't show too much.... seems it asks experience (skills). Avalon Acoustics
the Dynaudio like with smoothed edges around the tweeter with a WG seems good (thoough less pretty) while not easy as well to do with fine symetrie. Heissmann Acoustics | DXT-Wave | d appolito tower speaker also : Salon2 | Ultima2 Loudspeaker Series, 4-Way Floorstanding Loudspeaker
Thouse smoothed edges seems to make easier a widther sweet spot at ears heigth as a WG does?
Anyhow, a refurbish of the Sonus Faber filter is the most cost effective way to go imho.
the Dynaudio like with smoothed edges around the tweeter with a WG seems good (thoough less pretty) while not easy as well to do with fine symetrie. Heissmann Acoustics | DXT-Wave | d appolito tower speaker also : Salon2 | Ultima2 Loudspeaker Series, 4-Way Floorstanding Loudspeaker
Thouse smoothed edges seems to make easier a widther sweet spot at ears heigth as a WG does?
Anyhow, a refurbish of the Sonus Faber filter is the most cost effective way to go imho.
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Often the electrolytic capacitors in crossovers will increase in value, I just removed some that had actually doubled in value in about 15 years. Both tweeters were blown, had been forced to play a lot lower hz than they had been made for apparently.
A fairly inexpensive rebuild may change your mind about those speakers.
A fairly inexpensive rebuild may change your mind about those speakers.
Strange things can happen with electrolytics. I remember doing some tests on some specimens and while (briefly) reverse charged the capacitance was about double what was in the forward direction. Their leakage also tends to be higher at voltages below their rating.
So if bipolar electrolytics are left unpowered most of tje time, or giventoo small a signal, high values and DC leakage wouldn't surprise me.
So if bipolar electrolytics are left unpowered most of tje time, or giventoo small a signal, high values and DC leakage wouldn't surprise me.