Hello all,
I'm looking to build an active pair of PA speakers to be mounted on stands. I've built a couple dozen cabinets at this point, and already have 4 Stereo Integrity SQL 15's loaded in reflex cabs that I modeled and built. They're powered with two Crown XLS 2502's at 2 ohms, so they get around 1,200rms a piece and are very loud and smooth. I currently have a MiniDsp 2x4HD that I tame them with in the various settings I play in. I'm currently using a set of HT-12's from Erich at DIYSG as my tops, but I'm looking to upgrade. My restrictions, limitations, and general guidelines of the build are as follows:
I've checked into Hypex amps already, and they seem great, but I didn't know whether or not an in line DSP setup with 4 separate channels of amplification would yield better or more simple results. Please advise and thanks to all!!!
I'm looking to build an active pair of PA speakers to be mounted on stands. I've built a couple dozen cabinets at this point, and already have 4 Stereo Integrity SQL 15's loaded in reflex cabs that I modeled and built. They're powered with two Crown XLS 2502's at 2 ohms, so they get around 1,200rms a piece and are very loud and smooth. I currently have a MiniDsp 2x4HD that I tame them with in the various settings I play in. I'm currently using a set of HT-12's from Erich at DIYSG as my tops, but I'm looking to upgrade. My restrictions, limitations, and general guidelines of the build are as follows:
- $3,000 budget for drivers, cab, amps, and wires. I'd prefer to come in under this, but this is the cap.
- Start date on the build needs to be within a couple of months.
- I'll be playing for up to 500 people.
- I'd like for them to be generally very reliable. I'm going to be using them at some important events, and would prefer to not skimp, especially on amplification to avoid failure.
- I want to use high quality drivers and try to match my directivity and everything as well as possible for my own OCD, but they don't have to be absolutely perfect as nobody else will notice.
- The subs I have will play comfortably up to 80hz, so there's no need for these to dip below that.
- I'd like to have a reflex enclosure to keep thermal buildup in check.
- Weight absolutely does not matter. Each one of my cabs for the 15's weigh over 100lbs, so I'm already lugging around quite a bit of gear. It's not an issue.
- I'm fine with a 1.4" CD, rather than 1". The very tip top of the frequencies won't be all that important in this environment. I just want nice, crisp, clean sound with good directivity.
I've checked into Hypex amps already, and they seem great, but I didn't know whether or not an in line DSP setup with 4 separate channels of amplification would yield better or more simple results. Please advise and thanks to all!!!
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It's also worth noting that I'm only planning to go with an active setup due to the difficulty of designing and building a passive crossover and the labor involved with taking measurements and tuning back and forth to nail it down. I realize that I'm going to have to do this to some extent running active, but I plan to take measurements outside on stands and get them very flat to begin with. Then at each space I set up in, I'll do some adjusting on the fly if there's any nuisance nulls and peaks. I really like to adjustability of the active setup vs. passive as well. And the fact that you can always use the equipment for a different build down the road rather than having a junk crossover that you spent 100 hours on when you decide to retire that setup.
Separate amp channels are a good idea for appropriate output limiters for each driver. I would recommend keeping the amps out of the boxes and running NL4 or NL8 from the rack, you can have redundant and more powerful amplification this way. Or you can just run the system mono if your amps are capable and one amp goes down.
are you sure weight doesn't matter? how are you going to get the speakers above the heads of the crowd? 35mm speaker stands start to struggle at >20kg.
500 people at high SPL is a pretty big crowd (people usually overestimate how many people are in a crowd). I would probably want more than one compression driver per side to perform comfortably to a crowd of this size. Perhaps two 60 degree trap boxes per side. Whats the geometry of the spaces you plan to use this system in? This will dictate your coverage angles.
are you sure weight doesn't matter? how are you going to get the speakers above the heads of the crowd? 35mm speaker stands start to struggle at >20kg.
500 people at high SPL is a pretty big crowd (people usually overestimate how many people are in a crowd). I would probably want more than one compression driver per side to perform comfortably to a crowd of this size. Perhaps two 60 degree trap boxes per side. Whats the geometry of the spaces you plan to use this system in? This will dictate your coverage angles.
As far as the amplification, would you recommend sticking with Crown? I'm already going to be running XLS 2502's on my subs, so I could get one of the small class AB XLI series for the highs and another larger one for the mids.
as far as weight is concerned, it really isn't a problem. I was a welder/fabricator for 8 years and still have the tools necessary to build whatever I need. I also have a close friend at a machine shop that could help out if need be. If the weight is too much for my stands I can build something custom to support them.
The geometry will nearly always be rectangular with me being on a wall or in a corner. There will also be occasional wedding venues but most of them will have a similar shape as well. Since I'm going to be playing frequently in bars and venues, the sound will be directed towards the dance floor or where the partying as actually happening. I don't plan on actually playing directly for 500 people right in front of the system, I'm just budgeting for overkill, people wise. There will definitely be 500 people total at some of the events, but there will be no need for me to deliver sound to more than 200 or so directly.
Some notes for you:
- Weight absolutely does matter. If you start doing custom fabrications to hold your speakers up, you better get them tested to destruction: all commercially used rigging is tested for safe working load etc and should be regularly inspected by the owner. If anything does happen (ie, a speaker drops on someone's head) with your custom rigging, you're likely to be sued into oblivion as well as facing all sorts of life-ruining legal problems. I cannot over-state how serious this is.
Ground stacking is a safer bet if you're building a system of that sort of scale.
- The subwoofers you're using at the moment are very low sensitivity: 95dB@2.83V@1ohm = 8w, so about 86dB@1w. That's low for PA use. I can see that you're using multiple drivers, which will increase the output levels somewhat, but I'd suggest that these drivers aren't the best thing for the job, unless you're really strongly prioritising deep bass in smallish venues, where the relatively low output isn't a big problem.
For reference, a Beyma 15P1200Nd in a smallish ported box will put out about 123dB@40Hz, and 127dB@100Hz at similar power inputs.
- There are very few amps where I'd start a gig running 2ohm/ch. The Crown XLS series are not one of them. 2ohm/ch is a difficult life for most amps, and if the amp decides it's had enough (whether temporarily due to overheating, or permanently), you have nowhere to go. If you run 4ohm/ch, your amps are much more likely to survive the gig, and if one does happen to go down, you could then look at loading some amps down to 2ohm/ch to limp through the rest of the show.
The amps that I'd be happy starting with 2ohm/ch are basically the big-name touring amps. Check out the Crown MA12000i as an example.
At the very least, it would be wise to go with Ch1=subs, Ch2=mids, which spreads out the thermal load a bit.
- Getting to your actual speakers, it looks like you've got a pair of low-end 12" 2-way speakers as mains at the moment, and the crossover appears to be geared towards domestic use. How far short are they of what you'd like to do?
Some options:
The first option would probably give the highest output overall, but the 15" cone would allow horizontal directivity control to a lower frequency. The 2x10" box does the "big sound from small boxes" thing very well.
You could also go with a 15" coaxial + 15" midbass driver. That's a bigger box than I'd ever want to lift, though.
Chris
- Weight absolutely does matter. If you start doing custom fabrications to hold your speakers up, you better get them tested to destruction: all commercially used rigging is tested for safe working load etc and should be regularly inspected by the owner. If anything does happen (ie, a speaker drops on someone's head) with your custom rigging, you're likely to be sued into oblivion as well as facing all sorts of life-ruining legal problems. I cannot over-state how serious this is.
Ground stacking is a safer bet if you're building a system of that sort of scale.
- The subwoofers you're using at the moment are very low sensitivity: 95dB@2.83V@1ohm = 8w, so about 86dB@1w. That's low for PA use. I can see that you're using multiple drivers, which will increase the output levels somewhat, but I'd suggest that these drivers aren't the best thing for the job, unless you're really strongly prioritising deep bass in smallish venues, where the relatively low output isn't a big problem.
For reference, a Beyma 15P1200Nd in a smallish ported box will put out about 123dB@40Hz, and 127dB@100Hz at similar power inputs.
- There are very few amps where I'd start a gig running 2ohm/ch. The Crown XLS series are not one of them. 2ohm/ch is a difficult life for most amps, and if the amp decides it's had enough (whether temporarily due to overheating, or permanently), you have nowhere to go. If you run 4ohm/ch, your amps are much more likely to survive the gig, and if one does happen to go down, you could then look at loading some amps down to 2ohm/ch to limp through the rest of the show.
The amps that I'd be happy starting with 2ohm/ch are basically the big-name touring amps. Check out the Crown MA12000i as an example.
At the very least, it would be wise to go with Ch1=subs, Ch2=mids, which spreads out the thermal load a bit.
- Getting to your actual speakers, it looks like you've got a pair of low-end 12" 2-way speakers as mains at the moment, and the crossover appears to be geared towards domestic use. How far short are they of what you'd like to do?
Some options:
- 1x Faital 12HX500 and 1x Faital 12FH520 per side. Run them as a 2.5-way, with the FH520 propping up the <600Hz range. You could build a fairly compact box around those drivers, and with a good wind-up speaker stand, you'd be able to get them to a suitable height. B&C also do similar drivers that would be worth a look.
- My current PA speakers would also work: 2x Faital 10FH520 + 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94 horn. The ND1460 isn't anything particularly special IMO (other good 1.4" drivers would also do fine), but those 10"s are very impressive.
- 15" 2-way box with a good HF driver capable of crossing over at about 800Hz.
The first option would probably give the highest output overall, but the 15" cone would allow horizontal directivity control to a lower frequency. The 2x10" box does the "big sound from small boxes" thing very well.
You could also go with a 15" coaxial + 15" midbass driver. That's a bigger box than I'd ever want to lift, though.
Chris
What kind of electrical power do you expect to have access to? I run more powerful amps than this on subs but I also typically have at least 32A/230V/1P. Your subs are not PA subs so sacrifice output for bass extension if they are already 2ohm loads on the XLS2502 there may be little point increasing the amp power.
If going for a single speaker per side 90x40 or 90x60 pattern works pretty well in most situations.
I'm presuming your motivation is to get more output than the HT-12? I think this will be limited by the single 12" driver for the low end syntripp is an improvement here (dual 10"). Beyond that point you would want to start looking at using multiple compression drivers per side.
If going for a single speaker per side 90x40 or 90x60 pattern works pretty well in most situations.
I'm presuming your motivation is to get more output than the HT-12? I think this will be limited by the single 12" driver for the low end syntripp is an improvement here (dual 10"). Beyond that point you would want to start looking at using multiple compression drivers per side.
as another suggestion you could make 60 degree trapezoidal boxes with 2*10/12" running two per side which would get you decent height and be a relatively straight forward design.
Thank you for mentioning the first part about liability. I honestly hadn't thought about that. I guess in this case, I'll be sure to just purchase stands that are rated for very heavy weights. As far as raising them up, I'll never set up alone, as I always have someone tag along for this. I'd say a 150 pound cab is going to be towards the maximum weight I need to go. This should be easy to stay under, I believe.
While the subs are very low sensitivity compared to some of the pro drivers, real world output is higher than what it seems to be on paper. I've had only two of the four in a 2,400 square foot venue and they don't have any problem whatsoever to fill that amount of space with rich bass. I haven't had all four at a venue yet, since I've gotten them completed, but I'd assume they should easily be able to cover a 5,000-7,500 square foot facility. Ideally, I know that I need to look into some more efficient sub designs. I would just build more of these, because myself and most others love their sound signature so much (very deep and effortless, they move a lot of air), but the main factor is running out of power. I'm afraid that if I have 6 or 8 of them I'm going to start running out of power for them and tripping breakers. It'll be a factor trying to setup at venues that don't have adequate power for the system.
As far as running at 2ohm's, I know that it's harder on the amplifier, but I've had these playing full tilt for several hours with EDM/Rap and haven't had an issue this far. I realize that it's ideal to run higher, but I haven't found an amplifier on the market that can power them similarly to the Crown at four ohms for less than $2,000 or so. At this point, amps of that caliber aren't in the budget. Also, all four of my subs are dual 4 ohm voice coils, so that limits me to running either 8 ohms or 2 ohms. I know it's not ideal, but would you really be scared of a failure? For now, I may just purchase a third XLS2502 as a backup in case this happens.
The HT-12's aren't ideal by any means, but they do hold their own for everything I've done so far. I power them with a Crown XLI 800 that gives them around 150 watts at 8 ohms, by my calculations that's just a little over 120db. They're 98db/w. I haven't put a mic on them but they're pretty clear and get me by until I get these speakers completed. As far as how much more I need, I'd like to be able to maintain around 130db or so. I don't know how to explain what I'm lacking with the HT-12's, but it's like they're panting while playing loud. I'm needing the effortless volume that just really pops and sounds like they aren't breaking a sweat, if that makes sense. There's an experience you get from larger, high powered sensitive speakers that I can't describe but I'm sure you're aware of.....that's what I'm going for. I'd like to run these for several years so I want them to be beefy and have good headroom and just an effortless clarity and impact to them.
Also, thank you for the suggestions. I'm looking into them all currently. If I do go with external amps I can just run another MiniDsp 2x4HD. I'm really happy with the performance of the one I have currently.
Thank you for the input. I dug pretty deep into the Syntripp thread and it's a little bit more complicated than I'm wanting to go at the moment. By all means, it's a great design and very cost effective, but I'm looking more along the lines of a 2 way with horn loaded CD. I've thrown around the idea of doing an HF146 due to the fact that its frequency response looks very very smooth. I've heard some praise from them as well for PA use. Faitals 15FH520 also looks to be a very nice woofer. Does anyone have some input regarding the use of these real-world? Or know of any horns that would mate well with the 1.4" CD and 15FH520? I'd like to cross around 800 or so if I went with this setup, but of course that'll depend on how they measure in the enclosure. Please give me some advice on whether or not these look good.
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Also, I typically will have access to 120v wall plugs. Most venues have at least 3 that I can access on separate breakers. So I should almost always have access to draw 60 amps. More for short amounts of time like what is required in most music, IMO. I've ran up to 3,000 watts rms full tilt off of one 20 amp breaker paying music and I didn't have an issue. So I'd assume that with access to 3 breakers, I should be able to run around 9,000 watts or so without having to worry.
usually a 2*10" or 2*12" will outperform a 1*15" design. E.G
15FH520: 98dB/1W, AES power = 600W, 126dB
10HP1020: 96dB, AES power = 700w, 124dB
but then 2*10HP1020 = 124dB+6dB = 130dB
Furthermore the 2*10" design will be able to cope with a higher crossover frequency while mentaining wide horizontal dispersion. A higher crossover frequency is a good thing for the compresion driver! (PA levels with an 800Hz crossover need a large expensive compresion driver, 3-4" dome/large anular ring).
Compresion driver datasheets are not the most informative things in the world as they typicaly only include measurments on one horn which strongly influences the frequency response. For example the HF146 is measured on a horn with collapsing HF directivity, this concentrates more power on axis making the high end of the response look more efficient. HF146 has a 2.65" diameter polymer dome so I would expect low frequency perfomance between a small format and a large format compresion driver and a 'smooth' sound due to the good damping of breakup but the sound to deteriorate at high power levels due to polymer softening. Here is the voice coil reveiw: https://audioxpress.com/article/tes...ession-driver-coupled-with-lth142-60-o50-horn
from faital I like the look of the HF1440: https://faitalpro.com/en/products/HF_Drivers/product_details/index.php?id=502020185 its an anular ring driver so the phase plug isn't as limiting for excursion as a dome driver however it has less surface area, even smoother though.
power is funny until you meter it you don't realy know, modern switch mode amps deliver reactive power to the speaker that is re-absorbed by the bus capacitance of the amplifier so wall power draw can be suprisingly low. It sounds like the venues you are playing at don't have power worth going much over XLS2502 level amps though. You also have the breaker curves which will allow multiple times overload for short duration and the discontinous nature of music in your favor.
the mini-dsps wouldn't be my choice for PA as it is dealing with the wrong signal level, does it have limiters? and no ethernet managment. I prefer installation open architecture processors but this is atypical.
15FH520: 98dB/1W, AES power = 600W, 126dB
10HP1020: 96dB, AES power = 700w, 124dB
but then 2*10HP1020 = 124dB+6dB = 130dB
Furthermore the 2*10" design will be able to cope with a higher crossover frequency while mentaining wide horizontal dispersion. A higher crossover frequency is a good thing for the compresion driver! (PA levels with an 800Hz crossover need a large expensive compresion driver, 3-4" dome/large anular ring).
Compresion driver datasheets are not the most informative things in the world as they typicaly only include measurments on one horn which strongly influences the frequency response. For example the HF146 is measured on a horn with collapsing HF directivity, this concentrates more power on axis making the high end of the response look more efficient. HF146 has a 2.65" diameter polymer dome so I would expect low frequency perfomance between a small format and a large format compresion driver and a 'smooth' sound due to the good damping of breakup but the sound to deteriorate at high power levels due to polymer softening. Here is the voice coil reveiw: https://audioxpress.com/article/tes...ession-driver-coupled-with-lth142-60-o50-horn
from faital I like the look of the HF1440: https://faitalpro.com/en/products/HF_Drivers/product_details/index.php?id=502020185 its an anular ring driver so the phase plug isn't as limiting for excursion as a dome driver however it has less surface area, even smoother though.
power is funny until you meter it you don't realy know, modern switch mode amps deliver reactive power to the speaker that is re-absorbed by the bus capacitance of the amplifier so wall power draw can be suprisingly low. It sounds like the venues you are playing at don't have power worth going much over XLS2502 level amps though. You also have the breaker curves which will allow multiple times overload for short duration and the discontinous nature of music in your favor.
the mini-dsps wouldn't be my choice for PA as it is dealing with the wrong signal level, does it have limiters? and no ethernet managment. I prefer installation open architecture processors but this is atypical.
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My impression from what limited research I've done is that it will be very hard to prevent comb filtering when using two woofers in a front loaded design. I suppose in a PA setup that may not be all that bad because you're not dealing with ideal environments anyways. I know that if I did dual 10's or dual 12's it would definitely be much easier to find a horn for my CD. It seems like it's pretty hard sourcing larger format horns to match dispersion closely with a 15" woofer. I've always really liked the SEOS waveguides but they're extremely hard to come across right now. If I did dual woofers then I would just wire the woofers together in each cab for simplicity. That way I can use each independent channel of the amp to drive two woofers on either side. I haven't ever looked in to open architecture processors before, I'm going to have to check that out.
Also, MiniDsp does make a DSP module called the "SHD". It has a shark processor and looks to be quite powerful. It has XLR as well, rather than RCA, but it's only 4 channels. I'd have to have 6 channels at the very minimum for what I'm doing.
With the open architecture processors they are very expensive new but get ripped out of corporate installs all the time so you just have to work out what model is available on eBay at reasonable prices. Manufacturers are: Symmetrix, qsc, biamp. You can download the software from the manufacturer and try it out offline to check if it's a direction you would be comfortable with. I have qsc basis, Symmetrix 8x8, Symmetrix radius AEC, biamp nexia, biamp treseria. The qsc basis are so old now failed/unreliable units are common. Nexia units have noticeably worse SNR than more modern units requiring careful gain structure. They require making up leads from their terminal block connectors.
Another processing option is to just sell your amps and buy amps with DSP built in. There are lower cost amps from Chinese manufacturers with capable enough looking DSP in them but I haven't tried these units out. It may also be a total pain if the separate amps DSPs are not configurable together as per higher end amps like Powersoft.
In the fixed function DSPs the dcx2496 while old and lacking remote management is capable enough and available cheaply: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/behringer-dcx2496-eq-review.38879/
There are also the various units from dbx and thomann.
You would expect some narrowing of the vertical radiation pattern from a dual 10" config near the crossover frequency. This could be advantageous though to increase the direct to reverberant ratio in reflective rooms. You can model this in virtuaxcad.
Another processing option is to just sell your amps and buy amps with DSP built in. There are lower cost amps from Chinese manufacturers with capable enough looking DSP in them but I haven't tried these units out. It may also be a total pain if the separate amps DSPs are not configurable together as per higher end amps like Powersoft.
In the fixed function DSPs the dcx2496 while old and lacking remote management is capable enough and available cheaply: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/behringer-dcx2496-eq-review.38879/
There are also the various units from dbx and thomann.
You would expect some narrowing of the vertical radiation pattern from a dual 10" config near the crossover frequency. This could be advantageous though to increase the direct to reverberant ratio in reflective rooms. You can model this in virtuaxcad.
Here's a budget system I built for myself.
I did 4 pairs of 2 x 8 MTM 2 ways with tractrix horns (most 1" CD horns sound nasty to me at higher spls). Midbass are Eminence Beta 8As crossed at 3k passive 2nd order to Celestion CDX1-1745s on Faital ST100s, in 30 liter vented cabs tuned to 65hz. Amps are QSC GX7s, each channel running one cab @4 ohms. Processor is a DBX Venu360.
Some of you will critic the following choice, but I picked the xover point of 3k because of 3 reasons. First is the range the ear is very sensitive to - the MTM narrowing directivity at xover reduces reflections to help with intelligibility, especially at higher spls in reflective rooms. Second reason is the CD will sound much cleaner crossed up high at greater spls and won't even break a sweat doing it continuously. Third is the ear won't be put off with the dip at the xover due to the Fletcher Munson curve dipping there anyways, which sounds pleasing at higher volume levels. The Beta 8As natural FR lends itself well to that working range under 3k and it sounds fantastic while doing so. Its such an underrated driver. The Celestion CDX1-1745 is another great driver. I stumbled on this gem used in some other Martin cabs. Its a nice driver for 80 bucks.
These speakers ended up sounding very clean when crossed above 100 hz and can do high spl with good efficiency (96-97 dB after mild passive BSC). The Beta8As are limited to 3mm xmax, so they don't move mountains on their own, but in groups they pack a pretty big punch. With proper processor settings, one cab will easily take more than 500w continuous all day long and sound great while doing it. Thanks to the format, I can array multiple boxes vertically or horizontal depending on the venu. With 8 boxes total in groups of 4, I can get about 110dB @ 50ft all night long without straining and with exceptional clarity.
I'll never go back to larger mid drivers again. A large midbass driver will get you lower xover capability but not the same midrange clarity. You can get the same job done with larger groups of smaller enclosures, have greater group efficiency, plus versatility of being able to put the sound where you want it. Running these with 4 x 18" subs using Lavoce SAF184.03s in 140 liters vented, powered by 2 x QSC GXD8s is all I'll ever need from a compact live sound rig.
I did 4 pairs of 2 x 8 MTM 2 ways with tractrix horns (most 1" CD horns sound nasty to me at higher spls). Midbass are Eminence Beta 8As crossed at 3k passive 2nd order to Celestion CDX1-1745s on Faital ST100s, in 30 liter vented cabs tuned to 65hz. Amps are QSC GX7s, each channel running one cab @4 ohms. Processor is a DBX Venu360.
Some of you will critic the following choice, but I picked the xover point of 3k because of 3 reasons. First is the range the ear is very sensitive to - the MTM narrowing directivity at xover reduces reflections to help with intelligibility, especially at higher spls in reflective rooms. Second reason is the CD will sound much cleaner crossed up high at greater spls and won't even break a sweat doing it continuously. Third is the ear won't be put off with the dip at the xover due to the Fletcher Munson curve dipping there anyways, which sounds pleasing at higher volume levels. The Beta 8As natural FR lends itself well to that working range under 3k and it sounds fantastic while doing so. Its such an underrated driver. The Celestion CDX1-1745 is another great driver. I stumbled on this gem used in some other Martin cabs. Its a nice driver for 80 bucks.
These speakers ended up sounding very clean when crossed above 100 hz and can do high spl with good efficiency (96-97 dB after mild passive BSC). The Beta8As are limited to 3mm xmax, so they don't move mountains on their own, but in groups they pack a pretty big punch. With proper processor settings, one cab will easily take more than 500w continuous all day long and sound great while doing it. Thanks to the format, I can array multiple boxes vertically or horizontal depending on the venu. With 8 boxes total in groups of 4, I can get about 110dB @ 50ft all night long without straining and with exceptional clarity.
I'll never go back to larger mid drivers again. A large midbass driver will get you lower xover capability but not the same midrange clarity. You can get the same job done with larger groups of smaller enclosures, have greater group efficiency, plus versatility of being able to put the sound where you want it. Running these with 4 x 18" subs using Lavoce SAF184.03s in 140 liters vented, powered by 2 x QSC GXD8s is all I'll ever need from a compact live sound rig.
easy to model the effect of spaced drivers. a double 10" config looks to be about 60 degree vertical at 750 Hz and 40 degree at 1050 Hz. Crossing at 1050Hz to a 90x40 1.4" throat waveguide would work. Perhaps this: https://www.rcf.it/en/products/prod...tlet_ProductDownloadsPortlet_profileId=241603 HF94