Hey all.
I'd like to get the advice of more seasoned DIYers for my first attempt at building some relatively inexpensive single driver open baffle speakers. Let me lay out the situation, the room is 13'x14', with curtains on all walls, and two open doorways. Any speakers I build can be situated about 4 feet from the wall easily. The listening position is 8 feet from the speakers, which would be on standard angles pointed at the listening position, think a drawn triangle to the listener. Back wall is 3 feet from the listening position.
Given this setup, what size drivers in an open baffle do you think I can get away with? I currently have two JBL Arena 170 towers, with 7" woofers working fine in that position. ChatGPT for what it's worth says that to get equivalent bass to them in an open baffle situation, I could go with 10"-12" drivers. While I could see fitting those in those spots, I have to consider the baffle width too. I wouldn't want to go larger than 22" width alltogether, preferably thinner. Height wise the center of the speakers would be about 42" off the floor, total height with baffle, I'd say 5' would be the max I'd like.
Given these paramenters, what size drivers should I be considering, and which ones? The Lii Audio and Lii Song brands seem to be quite popular, a video praising the F-12s is what got me into the idea in the first place. I like a smooth, sweet and articulate but non-fatiguing speaker ordinarily as I do long term listening all throughout the day.
Anyway since this is a first time budget build to see how I like open baffle singer driver speakers, I'm fine with anything from about $100-$400 per driver. It looks like F-12s are pretty inexpensive, Music-8s are within the ball park, what should I consider for a first time build?
I have a router and plenty of spare construction lumber I can edge glue, or I can get some wider pieces from the Depot as need be for baffles.
Is there anything I'm missing here or do I roughly have a good plan?
I'd like to get the advice of more seasoned DIYers for my first attempt at building some relatively inexpensive single driver open baffle speakers. Let me lay out the situation, the room is 13'x14', with curtains on all walls, and two open doorways. Any speakers I build can be situated about 4 feet from the wall easily. The listening position is 8 feet from the speakers, which would be on standard angles pointed at the listening position, think a drawn triangle to the listener. Back wall is 3 feet from the listening position.
Given this setup, what size drivers in an open baffle do you think I can get away with? I currently have two JBL Arena 170 towers, with 7" woofers working fine in that position. ChatGPT for what it's worth says that to get equivalent bass to them in an open baffle situation, I could go with 10"-12" drivers. While I could see fitting those in those spots, I have to consider the baffle width too. I wouldn't want to go larger than 22" width alltogether, preferably thinner. Height wise the center of the speakers would be about 42" off the floor, total height with baffle, I'd say 5' would be the max I'd like.
Given these paramenters, what size drivers should I be considering, and which ones? The Lii Audio and Lii Song brands seem to be quite popular, a video praising the F-12s is what got me into the idea in the first place. I like a smooth, sweet and articulate but non-fatiguing speaker ordinarily as I do long term listening all throughout the day.
Anyway since this is a first time budget build to see how I like open baffle singer driver speakers, I'm fine with anything from about $100-$400 per driver. It looks like F-12s are pretty inexpensive, Music-8s are within the ball park, what should I consider for a first time build?
I have a router and plenty of spare construction lumber I can edge glue, or I can get some wider pieces from the Depot as need be for baffles.
Is there anything I'm missing here or do I roughly have a good plan?
A single driver that does bass on an OB needa to be special.
Of the ones i am familiar with, the Visaton B200 (need phase plugs [plans available] in a BIG way) , or the Betsy — i put phase plugs in those as well.
dave
Of the ones i am familiar with, the Visaton B200 (need phase plugs [plans available] in a BIG way) , or the Betsy — i put phase plugs in those as well.
dave
Open Baffle with a one for all Chassis ... I would Go with Betsy or the Fane 12/250TC. Later you can add a 15" Bass Driver....
At 22” wide the bass will rolloff at 6db/octave starting around 300hz. It’s not just a matter of bass ooomph… to have ANY bass or low mids you need a plan to correct for this.
A 10” or larger fullranger will likely beam intensely and/or sound shouty in the high frequencies. Then, if you boost the low frequencies to get ANY bass out of your system, you’ll muddy the mids and quickly hit excursion limits.
I love OB, but as you can tell I’m not a fan of single-driver OB systems. At minimum I would go with a 15”+ bass driver crossed very low to an attenuated 4” or smaller fullranger.
The best part of OB is the bass quality but that is moot if you can’t hear it.
A 10” or larger fullranger will likely beam intensely and/or sound shouty in the high frequencies. Then, if you boost the low frequencies to get ANY bass out of your system, you’ll muddy the mids and quickly hit excursion limits.
I love OB, but as you can tell I’m not a fan of single-driver OB systems. At minimum I would go with a 15”+ bass driver crossed very low to an attenuated 4” or smaller fullranger.
The best part of OB is the bass quality but that is moot if you can’t hear it.
Well I had hoped to avoid the complication of a crossover on a first build, but I guess I should look into it. Is there a good crossover people recommend? When you say 'very low' about what frequency range are you thinking?
The Bass should Play in the range under the Baffle Step of your OB. A good threat about building Crossovers ist sticked in the Multi Way Forum: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...igning-crossovers-without-measurement.189847/
The acoustic and electrical response of OB differ greatly, so you can have a gap between your low pass and high pass. I like to low-pass the bass driver at around 60hz then high-pass the fullrange around 200hz and attenuate it massively (like 15db). Jentzen makes some nice toroidal inductors for the low-pass. An adjustable Lpad can be handy for dialing in the right amount of attenuation.
Depending on the drivers & amount of attenuation, resulting system typically has an efficiency around 70db @ 1W/1m which is very low sensitivity, but it works for me and the bass is spectacular.
If you want higher efficiency with less bass, you could low-pass the bass somewhere in the 100hz-200hz region and apply less attenuation to the fullranger.
Adding wings/Uframe/Hframe also helps boost bass (and overall) efficiency. Also see Perry Marshall’s threads for other techniques you can use, such as his bass boost circuit or half-sealed-half-open woofer trick.
Depending on the drivers & amount of attenuation, resulting system typically has an efficiency around 70db @ 1W/1m which is very low sensitivity, but it works for me and the bass is spectacular.
If you want higher efficiency with less bass, you could low-pass the bass somewhere in the 100hz-200hz region and apply less attenuation to the fullranger.
Adding wings/Uframe/Hframe also helps boost bass (and overall) efficiency. Also see Perry Marshall’s threads for other techniques you can use, such as his bass boost circuit or half-sealed-half-open woofer trick.
I built this one and enjoyed it.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fast-fun-inexpensive-ob-project.110583/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fast-fun-inexpensive-ob-project.110583/
I was entertaining open-baffle single driver, but this convinces me otherwise. Seems to me a well-executed 2-way bookshelf box(blasphemy!) speaker has a lot going for it 🤔
A 2-way bookshelf is certainly a tried-and-true option. That said, there is something special/magical about a well-executed OB, and they are less readily available from commercial brands, so I still encourage you to try it. Maybe the Caladan clone would be a good option, or the SB OB kit on Madisound. If you really want to stick with a single driver OB I would probably go with the Lii Song Fast-15.
Greets!
Hmm, a typical 7" = ~132.7 cm^2 and box to 0B = 6 dB /4x power IIRC, so 132.7*4 = ~531 cm^2 = 12".
I suppose making a taller baffle rather than wider one would also increase bass, perhaps that's the right route to go. Would that work out well? Keeping the baffle thinner horizontally but adding an extra foot in height perhaps?
You could ask yourself what you look for in an open baffle, what made you choose this. The different approaches arrive at different considerations and are used across different frequencies.
To actually get bass, then wide as possible.
Usually high Qts speaker would work.
Why 2 way is feasible.
Since off axis beaming of a 12" is not very good.
But for actual bass
8" or 12" be about the same.
Its all downhill past 200, 300 Hz with dipole
unless it is very very wide baffle.
And even then...is what it is.
Or just mount speaker to the wall, and the other room is " open"
Better to sim and look at floor bounce.
Taller baffle can work. But to high up for bass
you get more weird dips aside from the huge dipole peak
your already working against.
Keep woofer closer to ground.
Far as plopping a speaker on a board and having fun
id say you would get the experience with the typical choices
Visaton BG20
Visaton B200
Dayton PS220-8
GRS 8FR-8
The dirt dirt dirt cheapo ironically actually more suitable high Qts
than all of them. Probably come close to actually making some bass.
Be better of with there dirt dirt cheap high Qts 15" and slap in a 3 inch speaker
for less beaming.
Or use a B200 in normal tower or corner mount and call it a day
Usually high Qts speaker would work.
Why 2 way is feasible.
Since off axis beaming of a 12" is not very good.
But for actual bass
8" or 12" be about the same.
Its all downhill past 200, 300 Hz with dipole
unless it is very very wide baffle.
And even then...is what it is.
Or just mount speaker to the wall, and the other room is " open"
Better to sim and look at floor bounce.
Taller baffle can work. But to high up for bass
you get more weird dips aside from the huge dipole peak
your already working against.
Keep woofer closer to ground.
Far as plopping a speaker on a board and having fun
id say you would get the experience with the typical choices
Visaton BG20
Visaton B200
Dayton PS220-8
GRS 8FR-8
The dirt dirt dirt cheapo ironically actually more suitable high Qts
than all of them. Probably come close to actually making some bass.
Be better of with there dirt dirt cheap high Qts 15" and slap in a 3 inch speaker
for less beaming.
Or use a B200 in normal tower or corner mount and call it a day
Okay, let's think about this another way then. A separate subwoofer and an open baffle driver for the rest of the frequency range. What then might be a recommendable open baffle driver?
What got me started on the open baffle idea was that it seemed so simple to do.
What got me started on the open baffle idea was that it seemed so simple to do.
For fullrange open baffle
Same thing wide baffle
And a driver around 3" for good highend and off axis.
usually leads to the typical suggestions in fullrange sections.
Almost always Mark Audio at whatever price point you prefer.
physically mounting the speakers not much easier or harder.
But understand what you mean by the concept of being more simple.
For a flat response if desired, with dipole it is more work.
Far as mounting and go, yes simple.
As mentioned if you desire quick n simple.
Then somewhat related to the usual wideband / fullrange projects.
Basically a tower, drop in a wideband and done.
Usual can of worms tradeoff between less beaming or more bass.
Hence what size fullrange small or bigger. Is what it is.
For bass same 8" listed above, for highs, usually typical mark audio stuff
or higher budget Tang Band, for better highs/off axis usually 3.3" or smaller.
Many get their feet wet with typical point source series from Dayton
take a pick 3.3" 6.5" or 8"
For a higher budget large 8" fullrange, with baffle step filter already designed
Basically small SOLO 50 or SOLO 100 and call it a day
For a higher budget small 3.3" or smaller, shoot for higher budget Mark Audio.
And dwell within the countless amazing designs Planet10 has to offer at planet_10 hifi
and countless box designs at frugal-phile.com
Same thing wide baffle
And a driver around 3" for good highend and off axis.
usually leads to the typical suggestions in fullrange sections.
Almost always Mark Audio at whatever price point you prefer.
physically mounting the speakers not much easier or harder.
But understand what you mean by the concept of being more simple.
For a flat response if desired, with dipole it is more work.
Far as mounting and go, yes simple.
As mentioned if you desire quick n simple.
Then somewhat related to the usual wideband / fullrange projects.
Basically a tower, drop in a wideband and done.
Usual can of worms tradeoff between less beaming or more bass.
Hence what size fullrange small or bigger. Is what it is.
For bass same 8" listed above, for highs, usually typical mark audio stuff
or higher budget Tang Band, for better highs/off axis usually 3.3" or smaller.
Many get their feet wet with typical point source series from Dayton
take a pick 3.3" 6.5" or 8"
For a higher budget large 8" fullrange, with baffle step filter already designed
Basically small SOLO 50 or SOLO 100 and call it a day
For a higher budget small 3.3" or smaller, shoot for higher budget Mark Audio.
And dwell within the countless amazing designs Planet10 has to offer at planet_10 hifi
and countless box designs at frugal-phile.com
I think you’d do best here……even if this is your first build to commit to a 2x4 DSP arrangement……this is going to BY FAR give the most potential for a positive outcome and you’ll learn so much about your hearing along the way in regards to frequency and phase where the drivers overlapp. At $250, it’s really not a bad investment for what you’re getting and the value for designing down the road cannot be overstated.
If it were me, in your space and if you ‘could’ do large baffles a pair of 15” bass drivers would be an excellent place to start. Use these for low bass all the way up to 300-400hz so all of your midbass has the clarity and free air slam that only box less large drivers can do. 18” would be even better but now the $$$ are starting to creep up. But there is a trade off as you won’t need much amplification to driver a 98db efficient woofer. With DSP and an 18?….you could easily get solid response down in the mid 30hz range OB……displacement is everything!
For mids and highs…..being a first time build and if you follow the DSP route?……..I’d suggest finding a used pair of KEF Q150’s and harvest the UniQ driver from them. Place them on those wide baffles with about a foot down from the top of the baffle and prepare to be amazed. There’s simply no full range driver that will match this arrangement OB.
As mentioned earlier, use the mini DSP to find your XO point…..somewhere in the 300-400hz range is going to be the sweet spot and you can experiement with slopes and EQ. The KEF drivers are made for 15-20 degrees off axis listening so consider that while prototyping and listening.
If it were me, in your space and if you ‘could’ do large baffles a pair of 15” bass drivers would be an excellent place to start. Use these for low bass all the way up to 300-400hz so all of your midbass has the clarity and free air slam that only box less large drivers can do. 18” would be even better but now the $$$ are starting to creep up. But there is a trade off as you won’t need much amplification to driver a 98db efficient woofer. With DSP and an 18?….you could easily get solid response down in the mid 30hz range OB……displacement is everything!
For mids and highs…..being a first time build and if you follow the DSP route?……..I’d suggest finding a used pair of KEF Q150’s and harvest the UniQ driver from them. Place them on those wide baffles with about a foot down from the top of the baffle and prepare to be amazed. There’s simply no full range driver that will match this arrangement OB.
As mentioned earlier, use the mini DSP to find your XO point…..somewhere in the 300-400hz range is going to be the sweet spot and you can experiement with slopes and EQ. The KEF drivers are made for 15-20 degrees off axis listening so consider that while prototyping and listening.
If you go with DSP there is the need of more Amplifiers. Thats not the way to go cheap.
The Baffle should measure, maximum, double the size of the Speaker you are using. For the basspart you can add wings. Wings work like a bigger Baffle.
Examble: If you go with a 8" Fullrange make the Baffle maximum 16" wide. If you add a 12" Bass-Driver add wings on both sides going 4" wider/deeper at both sides from the Baffle. Baffle Step ist around 260Hz. Without Bass-Driver make a Baffle Step correction for this. With Bass-Driver you have your Crossover Point. Take a Bass-Driver that makes 6dB more pressure than the Fullrange.
The Baffle should measure, maximum, double the size of the Speaker you are using. For the basspart you can add wings. Wings work like a bigger Baffle.
Examble: If you go with a 8" Fullrange make the Baffle maximum 16" wide. If you add a 12" Bass-Driver add wings on both sides going 4" wider/deeper at both sides from the Baffle. Baffle Step ist around 260Hz. Without Bass-Driver make a Baffle Step correction for this. With Bass-Driver you have your Crossover Point. Take a Bass-Driver that makes 6dB more pressure than the Fullrange.