1st build: full range sealed for 4 liters

[zgtc]

If the port on he front isn't don't correctly it might cause issues with phase or alike. Thats why, if I have space, I rear port.

Cheers,
Anna

Hi Anna, thank you, do you mean rear port is more forgiving with design errors than front port is?

I put the port in the front as that's typically my preference

I've heard only good things about the NS3 drivers.

Hi again, thank you, NS3 looks more a mid-bass speaker, no? Low(ish) frequency response, low SPL, ... What's so good about that driver? (back to my original question on what parameters to look for).

If you go to that Lalena site, if trying out the closed box option you should try varying (upwards) Qtc. A raised Qtc means a smaller box, and also a raised bass resonant frequency. (and increases the output around the resonant frequency.)

F3 then gives an indication of where the bass falls away.

0.707 is a theoretically best Qtc, but with very small boxes a more satisfying result usually comes from a higher Qtc giving more mid bass (at the expense of less low bass)

Wow, I need to read and digest all that information, it looks pretty awesome, thank you

 

[HumbleDeer]

Hi Anna, thank you, do you mean rear port is more forgiving with design errors than front port is?

Absolutely not. You're just less likely to have phasing issues when listening nearby. A port with the wrong drag ratio won't sound better on the back.

 

[mikejennens]

If there is any way you go up to about 6 liters, you could go with the Lance Redeye (The last speaker on the page). It uses the NS-3 and the bass is outstanding. There is no way I expected as much bass as it puts out. Beyond the bass it still sounds great.

http://wodendesign.com/downloads/Woden-BabyLabs-081015.pdf

Mike

 

[theaudiopath]

I think that unless you measure the speakers yourself they are usually wishful thinking. Audition what you desire. The best mini me of diminutive dimensions I ever came across was the Technics SB F1 owned some & regret moving em on. The cabs needs decent damping, add 1 neodymium slug to the bass, get rid of the nasty steel mesh grilles covering the drivers, replace the electrolytic capacitors in the XO with polypropylene. Finally put some adhesive wool felt around the front baffle @ the exit of the horn loaded tweeter. Compare these mods by doing one & leaving the other stock. You will mod the other real quick! No bass to speak of but oh so sweet on everything else. Pressure cast alloy cabinet mini masterpiece with 86 dB efficiency by Technics.
The ones I modded are up on Gumtree South Australia right now Leo the current owner & seller used em in a recording studio, YES THAT GOOD!. I have no association with him. I saw the ad with my speakers and contacted him to establish if they were formerly mine and they were.

 

[zgtc]

This kind of music dont sound especially engaging on small systems, even if refined sounding. Minimum bruteforce sizematters required...

Would agree with GDO here. Small single driver systems don't to well with complex rock. A small 2 way perhaps can cope a bit better.

Hello again (long time, I know).

I'm nearly decided for vented FR but the 2-way is temping as well (if I manage to put everything in a small box) because I also want to play complex rock. So, two more questions:

How does different drivers SPL affect sound at low-high ranges?
ie if FR for low-mid has 91 SPL and tweeter for highs has 85 SPL; or the other way around.

Similarly, how do different Qes-Qts-Vas affect box volume needed to fit both drivers? Or is that formula only applied to 1 FR in a box?

Thank you

 

[midrange]

To answer your questions.
1. Ideally you want the SPL to be consistent with both drivers (assuming you are using a crossover). This means that you will have to attenuate (reduce) the output from the louder speaker.
2. A standard tweeter is closed back, and has no output into the box and so no effect on box size. Only calculate for the main driver.

 

[zgtc]

To answer your questions.
1. Ideally you want the SPL to be consistent with both drivers (assuming you are using a crossover). This means that you will have to attenuate (reduce) the output from the louder speaker.
2. A standard tweeter is closed back, and has no output into the box and so no effect on box size. Only calculate for the main driver.

Understood, thank you!

 

[suprf1y]

FYI, I built the previously mentioned Dragon Foal project. Great little speakers for jazz, acoustic, dance or background music, but I'm not sure I would recommend them for rock.

 

[zgtc]

OK, so now the choice is reduced to:

a. FR ported.
Been investigating, and I think good options could be Faital Pro 4FE32 (91 dB), Tang Band W4-1337SDF (89 dB), Fostex FE166En (94 dB), Markaudio Alpair-10P (89.6 dB), Monacor/Celestion SPH-60X (89 dB). Any opinions on these?

b. 2-Way.
I haven't thought of any tweeters for this just yet. Any good fit for the above? Or should I get low-mid + tweeter instead of FR + tweeter?

Note: Fostex, Markaudio and Monacor above would theoretically need a bigger box but I don't have that space (I need small cabinet <7 liters). I've seen commercial products using the MA in a cabinet having half the liters, so I assume they can sound at least "good". What do they output from reducing box volume? (lack low end? more distortion? ...)

Thank you

 

[zgtc]

should I open new thread, provided it's not sealed nor 4L anymore, and maybe not even FR but 2W?

 

[planet10]

FR ported.
Been investigating, and I think good options could be Faital Pro 4FE32 (91 dB), Tang Band W4-1337SDF (89 dB), Fostex FE166En (94 dB), Markaudio Alpair-10P (89.6 dB), Monacor/Celestion SPH-60X (89 dB). Any opinions on these?

I can only speak to 2 of these. The FE166 really wants to be in a horn, in a BR it will be very bass shy.

The ALpair 10p is one of my favorite drivers. We usually put it into 13-17 litre reflex, and it is killer in Frugel-HornXL and no slouch in its Pensil ML-TL. I had a quick look and sims show that it appears to work OK in 6-8 litre (i didn’t try anything smaller), but we are getting into the small box tuned low where the vent becomes significant size — meaning the gross volume could end up larger than a largher net volume box. As volume goes down the bass extention decreases. 8 Litres look sto be needed to reach HT 80 Hz F(3). F10 50 Hz.I might actually look into that one further.

BTW, the FHXL with A10PeN brought to this years diyFEST didn’t’t seem to have much issue with any rock thrown at it.

dave

 

[zman01]

Another compact 2 way that you can take a look at (since 2 ways are also under your consideration now):

Overnight Sensations MT Speaker Kit Pair

Full kit (including cabinets) well within the budget you mentioned earlier.

A build with a small FR assisted by a woofer from diyA member xrk971:

FR58EX and AC130F1 micro-FAST

Probably a little higher vs the budget you had in mind.

 

[planet10]

Overnight Sensations

My only encounter with passive XO Overnight Sensations was at a diyFEST some time ago where they were followed by — and outperformed by — a set of mMar-Kel70 (4.7 litre) with EL70eN. Unfortunatly EL70 is no longer available but the new Pluvia 7 looks to fit into the same alignment.

dave

 

[zgtc]

I can only speak to 2 of these. The FE166 really wants to be in a horn, in a BR it will be very bass shy.

Noted! It's one of the most expensive on the list so, ...

The ALpair 10p is one of my favorite drivers. We usually put it into 13-17 litre reflex, and it is killer in Frugel-HornXL and no slouch in its Pensil ML-TL.

Good! Pity I don't have the space for that big design.

OK, serious question, what is it you people find on the Alpair that makes it so appealing? It is x5 expensive than the Faital and less SPL. Which takes me to question in post #1 "what numbers I should look for in the specs". In other words, is SPL overrated?

I had a quick look and sims show that it appears to work OK in 6-8 litre (i didn’t try anything smaller), but we are getting into the small box tuned low where the vent becomes significant size — meaning the gross volume could end up larger than a largher net volume box. As volume goes down the bass extention decreases. 8 Litres look sto be needed to reach HT 80 Hz F(3). F10 50 Hz.I might actually look into that one further.

I made my numbers and I think I can get up to 7 maybe 7.5 liters. How did you got to the 6-8 liters simulation? The formula I am using from usenclosure gives me around 18 liters. Thank you for the info.

BTW, the FHXL with A10PeN brought to this years diyFEST didn’t’t seem to have much issue with any rock thrown at it.

dave

That's very nice info, thank you! TBH I'd prefer to stay FR, at least for this 1st build, I'm not saying never-ever

Another compact 2 way that you can take a look at (since 2 ways are also under your consideration now):

Overnight Sensations MT Speaker Kit Pair

Full kit (including cabinets) well within the budget you mentioned earlier.

A build with a small FR assisted by a woofer from diyA member xrk971:

FR58EX and AC130F1 micro-FAST

Probably a little higher vs the budget you had in mind.

Looks good, thank you!

My only encounter with passive XO Overnight Sensations was at a diyFEST some time ago where they were followed by — and outperformed by — a set of mMar-Kel70 (4.7 litre) with EL70eN. Unfortunatly EL70 is no longer available but the new Pluvia 7 looks to fit into the same alignment.

(imgs removed from quote for clarity)

dave

I'll have a look. Same question as above though re: SPL

Thank you all again!

 

[planet10]

OK, serious question, what is it you people find on the Alpair that makes it so appealing? It is x5 expensive than the Faital and less SPL. Which takes me to question in post #1 "what numbers I should look for in the specs". In other words, is SPL overrated?

Mark Audio exchanges efficiency to get bass out of a smaller box and more control of the cone (Hoffman’s Iron Law). Whether it is 5x better than the Faital i can’t say, i have yet to hear that driver. Also, in hifi in general, there is an exponetial character to pricing.

To get high SPL, especially in a small driver, means low mass which usually results in compromises to the cones and all too often HF resonances — some of the things i try to work out of the FExx6 Fostex when i modify them.

I made my numbers and I think I can get up to 7 maybe 7.5 liters. How did you got to the 6-8 liters simulation?

I put the numbers in my simulator and had a look. I have designed hundreds & built many so i know from experience how the curve in a sim turns out sound wise. A box that small does require a high ratio slot vent.

You need a smaller box, then consider a smaller driver.

dave

 

[zgtc]

Mark Audio exchanges efficiency to get bass out of a smaller box and more control of the cone (Hoffman’s Iron Law). Whether it is 5x better than the Faital i can’t say, i have yet to hear that driver. Also, in hifi in general, there is an exponetial character to pricing.

good to know, will read about that law

Since the main question is answered and I already changed the approach of my build, do you mind I open a new thread to ask about comparison among those 4/5 drivers, in a more specific thread subject? wouldn't want to look as cross-poster, I just feel the title of this thread is just misleading now.

thank you all for the help

 

[planet10]

No problem. Do put a link here.

dave

 

[zgtc]

Link to new thread here as suggested