Hello guys,
I'd like some comments from anyone who has done any remote comparison/listening between the 18LW1400 and the 2242H drivers in a bass reflex box. The 18sound is used in the EAW SB1000 and KF850, serious hardware. The JBL 2242H is also sort of legendary, and it shows in the price (2X that of the 18Sound).
It would probably be easier to sell the 2242H here locally, but this is a small issue.
I'm interested in doing up a sub (with EQ) and want to do down to 30Hz as it won't be for home theatre. Approx 160L internal vol excld driver/port displacement. Not really going for outright SPLs, 100dB nominally and 110dB for peaks @ 1m would be absolutely fine. My room is small (5m by 3.5m), so its gonna rock.
Will be powering it with a Yamaha P7000S (700W into 8ohms, 20-20kHz bandwidth, 1900W into 8 bridged).
Thanks and Merry Xmax, oppss....Xmas!
I'd like some comments from anyone who has done any remote comparison/listening between the 18LW1400 and the 2242H drivers in a bass reflex box. The 18sound is used in the EAW SB1000 and KF850, serious hardware. The JBL 2242H is also sort of legendary, and it shows in the price (2X that of the 18Sound).
It would probably be easier to sell the 2242H here locally, but this is a small issue.
I'm interested in doing up a sub (with EQ) and want to do down to 30Hz as it won't be for home theatre. Approx 160L internal vol excld driver/port displacement. Not really going for outright SPLs, 100dB nominally and 110dB for peaks @ 1m would be absolutely fine. My room is small (5m by 3.5m), so its gonna rock.
Will be powering it with a Yamaha P7000S (700W into 8ohms, 20-20kHz bandwidth, 1900W into 8 bridged).
Thanks and Merry Xmax, oppss....Xmas!
G'day 2100
I've used the 18LW1400 in the home, as well as several JBL's, (2206, 2226, 2241, 2245) but not the 2242. I've also used the 18Sound 18LW1400 and the 15LW1401.
The 18LW1400 is an excellent driver by all accounts and the best value out of this bunch. It is cleaner at high excursions than the 2241 and likely slightly better than the 2242.
For the levels you are after you would be better off looking at a driver like the 15NLW9500, this will give you all the output you require, with very low distortion and thermal compression. The 18" driver will deliver much more than you need. I ran my pair in 250L@22Hz with 1100W RMS each.
Cheers
William Cowan
I've used the 18LW1400 in the home, as well as several JBL's, (2206, 2226, 2241, 2245) but not the 2242. I've also used the 18Sound 18LW1400 and the 15LW1401.
The 18LW1400 is an excellent driver by all accounts and the best value out of this bunch. It is cleaner at high excursions than the 2241 and likely slightly better than the 2242.
For the levels you are after you would be better off looking at a driver like the 15NLW9500, this will give you all the output you require, with very low distortion and thermal compression. The 18" driver will deliver much more than you need. I ran my pair in 250L@22Hz with 1100W RMS each.
Cheers
William Cowan
Hi there William,
You are so very right about vent port sizing. I ran the numbers in WinISD Pro and if i tune it to SBB4 (ie 31Hz for the 18LW1400), geez its absolutely unbelivable! I use the Flare it program as a rough guide. Though core limit compression is quite high and presents no problem, the problem is chuffing limit of about 17m/s for, and it only does about 108dB for 25Hz before exceeding that speed, even for say a 160L box, 50cm port length and 20cm dia vent.
In fact 17m/s is assumed with some "masking", I guess with some music like low drums I'd hazard a guess you stilll can hear very slight chuffing from 2-3m away. Best is to do 10m/s.
So flaring is definitely needed, i am not sure if my local carpenter knows how to flare a rectangular port slightly. The port is now tuned to 34Hz 160L box so that i can utilise more of the 35Hz region for high SPL, as the vent speed is the limiting factor for 25Hz region.
Apologies for the rant William, I guess you know this like the back of your hand! I'm just putting it down here for the benefit of anybody who's trekking the same path in the future, as its not documented here or speakerplans.
In WinISD Pro, all the curves looks pretty similar bt the 18LW1400 and 2242H. Power compression specs are very similar too. Both have reinforced pleated cones, the 2242H uses fibreglass and the 18Sound i believe is just paper but treated both sides (weather proof), which probably improves the self damping properties and plup strength also.
Thanks a lot for sharing bro, I shall go for the 18LW1400. The fact that you recommended the 18Sound as its better at high excursions than the 2241 (7.6mm Xmax) means lots. Easily can hang around the 2242. The 2242 H2 and H3 curves are amazing.
I figured i'd go for 18" instead of 15", just do it right once and for all. Besides the Fs for the 15LW1401 is 42Hz, that's a bit high and I don't want to push it. I actually wanted to go for the 21LW1400 or new B&C 21SW150 but it is just too big!
Merry Xmax!
You are so very right about vent port sizing. I ran the numbers in WinISD Pro and if i tune it to SBB4 (ie 31Hz for the 18LW1400), geez its absolutely unbelivable! I use the Flare it program as a rough guide. Though core limit compression is quite high and presents no problem, the problem is chuffing limit of about 17m/s for, and it only does about 108dB for 25Hz before exceeding that speed, even for say a 160L box, 50cm port length and 20cm dia vent.
In fact 17m/s is assumed with some "masking", I guess with some music like low drums I'd hazard a guess you stilll can hear very slight chuffing from 2-3m away. Best is to do 10m/s.
So flaring is definitely needed, i am not sure if my local carpenter knows how to flare a rectangular port slightly. The port is now tuned to 34Hz 160L box so that i can utilise more of the 35Hz region for high SPL, as the vent speed is the limiting factor for 25Hz region.
Apologies for the rant William, I guess you know this like the back of your hand! I'm just putting it down here for the benefit of anybody who's trekking the same path in the future, as its not documented here or speakerplans.
In WinISD Pro, all the curves looks pretty similar bt the 18LW1400 and 2242H. Power compression specs are very similar too. Both have reinforced pleated cones, the 2242H uses fibreglass and the 18Sound i believe is just paper but treated both sides (weather proof), which probably improves the self damping properties and plup strength also.
Thanks a lot for sharing bro, I shall go for the 18LW1400. The fact that you recommended the 18Sound as its better at high excursions than the 2241 (7.6mm Xmax) means lots. Easily can hang around the 2242. The 2242 H2 and H3 curves are amazing.
I figured i'd go for 18" instead of 15", just do it right once and for all. Besides the Fs for the 15LW1401 is 42Hz, that's a bit high and I don't want to push it. I actually wanted to go for the 21LW1400 or new B&C 21SW150 but it is just too big!
Merry Xmax!
G'day 2100
They are both very clean drivers, and properly implemented will blend seamlessly with your top end. Many years back I had a room at the Melbourne HiFi Show and was voted having the best bass of the show, using a JBL 2226 based sub (300L@16Hz with passive eq).
Ken
Contact me when you're ready to go.
Cheers
William Cowan
They are both very clean drivers, and properly implemented will blend seamlessly with your top end. Many years back I had a room at the Melbourne HiFi Show and was voted having the best bass of the show, using a JBL 2226 based sub (300L@16Hz with passive eq).
Ken
Contact me when you're ready to go.
Cheers
William Cowan
Attachments
hi William - how would you build this type?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/zning/Noising07/ADSCF2511.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/zning/Noising07/ADSCF2511.jpg
Freddi, I see no technical advantage using a Karlson type enclosure. They are a relic of a time gone by that was devoid of any accurate computer based modeling. If you want high efficiency, start studying horns or direct radiating driver arrays. It is relatively easy now to achieve an excellent result on the first cut of a loudspeaker enclosure, assuming your models reflect what you build. The last few tapped horns I built measured within +/-1dB of the predicted response. Accurate computer models are your friend.
Cheers
William Cowan
They are a relic of a time gone by that was devoid of any accurate computer based modeling. If you want high efficiency, start studying horns or direct radiating driver arrays. It is relatively easy now to achieve an excellent result on the first cut of a loudspeaker enclosure, assuming your models reflect what you build. The last few tapped horns I built measured within +/-1dB of the predicted response. Accurate computer models are your friend.Cheers
William Cowan
Hi,
Somewhat OT but I have to.....
William,
Your described 2226 box seems to have similarities with this diy ebs design made a decade ago. It must have sounded terrific (as well as yours).
Freddi,
You seem to like Karlson boxes very much. I can imagine that they hit very hard.
I really have to try one some day, just for fun if nothing else.
By the way, one has to wonder who will be the first to make an accurate script for Karlson in AkAbak (or has someone succeeded already)? If so we will have simulation tool for Karlson as well.
Magnetar,
What horn in combination with the 2242 did you like?
Somewhat OT but I have to.....
William,
Your described 2226 box seems to have similarities with this diy ebs design made a decade ago. It must have sounded terrific (as well as yours).
Freddi,
You seem to like Karlson boxes very much. I can imagine that they hit very hard.
I really have to try one some day, just for fun if nothing else.
By the way, one has to wonder who will be the first to make an accurate script for Karlson in AkAbak (or has someone succeeded already)? If so we will have simulation tool for Karlson as well.
Magnetar,
What horn in combination with the 2242 did you like?
dark ages - that would be high mass 40Hz B&C 15 in bass reflex
that K18 was Gauss 5181 cabinet
http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/GK/
that K18 was Gauss 5181 cabinet
http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/GK/
G'day Anders
I built the first one at about the same time that project was published. My box was a bit bigger and tuned a little lower. The port was bigger, too. -3dB at 13Hz from memory. This was WAY before this LLT fad hit. I always saw the alignment as an extension of an EBS alignment. With a simple passive filter at the input to the sub power amp, almost any LF response curve could be dialed in. I used to use Calsod to simulate the response. When installing one of these subs at a customers house, I'd bring a few different in-line filters to try and swap them until I achieved my desired response. Maximum amplifier power was limited to 350W or so , not like these days of multi kilowatt amps driving subs in small boxes. Thermal compression was a non issue.
I've included a plot of the 2226 sub with eq applied. This is the flat version, great for big rooms. Usually the very bottom end was rolled off early at a very shallow slope to match the room gain curve.
Cheers
William Cowan
I built the first one at about the same time that project was published. My box was a bit bigger and tuned a little lower. The port was bigger, too. -3dB at 13Hz from memory. This was WAY before this LLT fad hit. I always saw the alignment as an extension of an EBS alignment. With a simple passive filter at the input to the sub power amp, almost any LF response curve could be dialed in. I used to use Calsod to simulate the response. When installing one of these subs at a customers house, I'd bring a few different in-line filters to try and swap them until I achieved my desired response. Maximum amplifier power was limited to 350W or so , not like these days of multi kilowatt amps driving subs in small boxes. Thermal compression was a non issue.
I've included a plot of the 2226 sub with eq applied. This is the flat version, great for big rooms. Usually the very bottom end was rolled off early at a very shallow slope to match the room gain curve.
Cheers
William Cowan
Attachments
4fun said:
25 hz flare 1/8th space expo horns.
There they are in the back against the wall.....
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
4fun said:
Thanks Magnetar,
A system in my liking
If you want to share some details about your sub design I'm all ears.
Here's a 'pretty' one I built for a friend-
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It only required a 2241 due to the listening habit of the owner
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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