That's 4dB for EQing in his simulation and 3dB for the 2nd sub, so 7dB. In praxis you need less since if you wire the subs parallel, you get 4 instead of 8 Ohm and your amp will put out around double the power. That does not work unlimited though.
For the amp I'd suggest the TSA 4-1300. Good price, very reasonable price and very low weight (12,5kg)
I would not start with end-fire, I would start with monocluster or line-space (subs in one line, space between them around 40-50cm estimated) or cardioid.
Yes, much cheaper and very easy to set up and still much better coverage and easily scaleable.
Thanks both but I do understand the difference in placement and how to do cardioid and endfire.. but I know I physically can not do any of them in most of the venues I go too... I physically don’t have the space or time to setup a system like that... if I was doing an install or had a few hours spare then fine, but a lot of the time the band arrives an hour before we’re due to start. And I have to set the PA system up and get it working , set up the lighting rig and get that working , as well as set up my own guitar rig....
And a lot of the time I don’t have a dedicated stage in witch to work around. So there no way of putting the subs in the centre, unless I make the singer stand in them. There’s not enough depth 90% if the time to get subs 1/4 wavelength apart and same goes for width as well..
It’s literally throw one sub at one side of the room throw the other sub at the other side, stick the mid high on top, plug in and go.
I’ll try and find a photo of an average gig I do so you get the idea.. give me a minute
Was planning on making what ever sub I build active, I can get hold of sub power amp cards that I can route out and fit.. they will give me 1200w RMS @ 4ohm . 800w RMs 8ohm.. what ever speakers I use I’m planning on getting 4ohm, unless I’m useing 2 per side were I’ll obviously get 8 ohm to achieve a total of 4ohm.. or if the driver cost is keep down, I’ll get four 4ohm speakers and 4 amps cards..
And a lot of the time I don’t have a dedicated stage in witch to work around. So there no way of putting the subs in the centre, unless I make the singer stand in them. There’s not enough depth 90% if the time to get subs 1/4 wavelength apart and same goes for width as well..
It’s literally throw one sub at one side of the room throw the other sub at the other side, stick the mid high on top, plug in and go.
I’ll try and find a photo of an average gig I do so you get the idea.. give me a minute
Was planning on making what ever sub I build active, I can get hold of sub power amp cards that I can route out and fit.. they will give me 1200w RMS @ 4ohm . 800w RMs 8ohm.. what ever speakers I use I’m planning on getting 4ohm, unless I’m useing 2 per side were I’ll obviously get 8 ohm to achieve a total of 4ohm.. or if the driver cost is keep down, I’ll get four 4ohm speakers and 4 amps cards..
The photo of This outdoor gig is very old and it’s much much bigger now but the stage area is the same..the venue thinks we have about 600 people stood in front of us now days.
The other photo is of another band but in a blues rock club i play, it’s tiny and I hate playing there, but the Venue opens out and is fairly long and very heavily carpeted.. it holds 280 people ( apparently)
But I’ve attached a few other just as a general idea.
Also here’s a video of an odd gig we did in a church.. the pa is flat out btw.. only things in FOH is kick dum and vocal. The guitar mic is for the drum monitors. 200 people
YouTube
The other photo is of another band but in a blues rock club i play, it’s tiny and I hate playing there, but the Venue opens out and is fairly long and very heavily carpeted.. it holds 280 people ( apparently)
But I’ve attached a few other just as a general idea.
Also here’s a video of an odd gig we did in a church.. the pa is flat out btw.. only things in FOH is kick dum and vocal. The guitar mic is for the drum monitors. 200 people
YouTube
Attachments
well it's a long story about wavelength, physical placement and time arrival....and with the constraints of no time and no stage (sorry but it's been a long time since i did a gig in a venue that doesn't have a dedicated stage) are the Bose laying on their sides taller then the height of your stage monitors? in a small venue fitting the subs along the same line as stage monitors would be a pain but if it allows them to be closer then the usual 30 to 40 feet apart in the typical L/R flanks of the stage it might just push the null in the frequency range up, hopefully above or close to the sub to top x-over point where it would be less of a problem.
Yep I’ve tried that, in venue that have stages and don’t already have there Own rig I’ve tired laying the subs on there sizes in the centre and everything in between, but unfortunately the subs are normally taller than the stage itself.. there only 16” high when on there side.. one venue when the sound is really bad and eats up low end, I tried using the subs in the centre as risers for the monitors to get the extra 3db, but made more issues than it was worth.. plus everyone complained it looked stupid and took up too much dance floor, so I was made to put the back on the L/R giving a big dead spot at the centre of the dance floor..
I’ve literally tried everything possible, I’ve even bought in engineer friends of mine that work on a much bigger scale then my self. One guy did the system and sound for Bon Joni in Hyde park in London a few years ago. I think is was 400,000 people +.... and nobody can get more out of current rig, one guy was actually stunned I was making stretch so far.
So I’ve decided I’ve got to change before the rig blows up. I’ve already picked my tops, RCF NX45A’s just need some kind of sub that will me the kick drum loud and thud in your chest... like I said before I often highpass the bassist at 80-90hz anyway so that’s not an issue. No that he needs to be Put in the mix, he’s the loudest one out Of all of us..
I’ve literally tried everything possible, I’ve even bought in engineer friends of mine that work on a much bigger scale then my self. One guy did the system and sound for Bon Joni in Hyde park in London a few years ago. I think is was 400,000 people +.... and nobody can get more out of current rig, one guy was actually stunned I was making stretch so far.
So I’ve decided I’ve got to change before the rig blows up. I’ve already picked my tops, RCF NX45A’s just need some kind of sub that will me the kick drum loud and thud in your chest... like I said before I often highpass the bassist at 80-90hz anyway so that’s not an issue. No that he needs to be Put in the mix, he’s the loudest one out Of all of us..
What the hell are you talking about? Line-space (or however it's called in english) takes literally just 5 minutes more than a stereo setup, just draw a line (or duct-tape), place them roughly 45cm away from each other, a monostack does not need ANY more time! If you claim you don't have the time for it you clearly did not understand how it works.
Active speakers require much more time and effort at setting them up and a lot more cables. Unless you're getting a networked active pa system, you'll have to set up every subwoofer separately. One setting fits all venues does not work. And you need more space around the subwoofers, the amps produce heat, they need air movement and open air you'll have a really hard time to protect them from rain. The amp modules become much more expensive than a small amp rack very quickly.
I don't know how the insurance and safety regulations are over there but building something with its own amplifier, it's posing a big liability in case one of your amplifiers becomes an amplifire.
At the moment I get the feeling you don't have any concept or strategy how to build a PA or what dimensions are needed. That's in general not a problem and on here in the forum are enough folks who can help you but it seems you've learned just enough to get (way?) too much confidence in your expertise and decide to chose technical issues without knowing which and how much will depend on that or if it's really a good decision. I've seen so many ppl buying stuff and wasting tons of money and having to buy different parts again and again.
I want to suggest a few things:
1. Go to an audio tech training. You'll learn a lot you really need to know.
2. Gather ALL information, what you want to do, what's on the stage, how many band members play what on which equipment, how many mics, channels on the mixer, how much space on the stage you need etc.
3. Gather as much as possible informations about the venues you'll be playing at. PAX, size, electrical installation you can use. No, just knowing a few 220V plugs going to be there is not enough information, you need to know if the venue can provide enough power and circuits/breaker for the PA and light you want to use. How many plugs you need, how much power each needs and so on. You really need to know these things!
4. Go to several experts, PA renters, music stores, tell them what you do, give them your information. See what they suggest to chose. Rent that for a gig and look if that's really what you need. Yes, it really pays off to learn about the equipment in praxis, it's much cheaper than randomly buying or building DIY stuff.
5. Check really closely if you can organize and transport it. That includes time, size and costs. Make a plan and calculate it. Don't forget the time to eat, load etc.
6. YOU CANNOT DO EVERYTHING ALONE! Get stage hands, the other musicians of your band, someone from the venue, whatever. If these are ppl you'll be together more often, teach them what you know, distribute tasks.
I don’t mean is in any offence, but us seams that’s most people on this forum live in an idealistic world and nothing can work unless it’s exactly as they think it should..
Also I’ve been a professional gigging musician for 13 years, and a studio engineer for 5 years.. I have Serval high qualifications in sound and sound engineering, not including my musical qualifications and experience.. I’m not claiming to know everything and my maths and physics isn’t the best. But I’m no idiot!!!.. I have experience with a lot of Different sound systems in a lot of different situations.... I build valve amplifiers for guitarist and service vintage gear..
I joined this forum for advice from people who have built speakers and know how different types sound in the real world.. spec sheets and graphics I find pretty useless, the real test and answers come from your ears and nothing else... I don’t have any experience building the types of speaker cabs mentioned ( horns etc ) but guitar cabinets yes. .
I made the move to active speakers because I was sick and tired of carrying around the racks of very heavy amps , x overs / 31 band eq’s . I have a few serious health issue meaning I can not lift anything.. so it falls on my band to move gear, they don’t understand how any of it works so it falls on me to do everything, and they don’t have an interest in learning either. also we have a Mercedes sprinter style van that’s already extremely full. So space is an Issue there too
And although I do play big gigs , I also have to make a living playing smaller ones where space is an issue. Yet no wanting to compromise on sound quality.
I don’t think you have a clue what it’s like for a gigging music, especially I the uk. How difficult every single venue is, if not the venue, the person running it.... often I have to clear the area before I can even start.. I’m lucky to have 45 to an hour to set the entire band up.. we never get a sound check unless it’s a bigger gig. Especially as the band travels together and although some of us are full Time musicians, other tech, and work so there’s no leaving 4 hours early just to get up the PA, plus venues would never put up with that..
Musicians in the uk are treated like absolute dirt. And from my experience as an engineer and fellow engineers I know. The people doing the sound and setting stuff up and treated even worse than the musicians. . 99% of the time I know absolutely nothing about the venue I’m going into until I get there, and every single time I’m lucky to get a single double 230v socket to run ABSOLUTELY everything !!!!.. let me restate that.. a Single socket to power 3 guitar amps, a pedalboard, a wireless syestem . A bass amp . 8 lights . 4 stage monitors. 4 FOH speakers. The mixing desk... and that’s just the bare minimum!!! It dosnt happen that often these days but it still dose.
These places are not set up for bands or sound in any way shape or form.. obviously the venues that are are brilliant. But most are not.. even the dedicated music venues and clubs are in pretty much the same sate , just with a stage and lights..
I’ve even have to plug everything into a single 10amp plug socket that was connected to the light socket instead of a bulb !!!! And that was when I was using amp racks too !!
So thank you for any help you’ve given, but what was a simple question about 2 types of sub boxes I’ve never heard as become a completely different thing.!! Witch has happen every time I’ve asked a question on this forum..
And as for asking experts about rigs.... every time I’ve done that, witch is the last 4 pa rigs I’ve had, they’ve never been anything better than what I had already. I’ve lost thousands buying gear recommend to me by independent industry experts that I’m not going to get back.. and believe me I can NOT afford it.. I put myself into massive debt every single time... and this isn’t because I want some flash thing to show off about.. it’s because I love music and what I do, and I want to give the people who come to see my band the best experience possible. And having a good sound get you more work.. I’m still paying off the Bose rig I couldn’t afford that was recommended to me that’s not powerful enough for what I do... I was sceptical at the time and I should have trusted my gut in the first place..now I’m 5k out of pocket and struggling to afford the guitar strings I need to be able to make music an earn money to pay off the Bose rig.. I don’t know if you understand how much money a professional gigging musician makes In the uk, but it’s **** all.. ON average £300 split between 4 people , that’s without fuel getting there, food, advertising etc etc etc , and at the moment I struggle to get 3-4 gigs a week.. I’ve actually have 6 weeks of nothing because a tour fell though...
So thanks a lot just the advice I needed
Also I’ve been a professional gigging musician for 13 years, and a studio engineer for 5 years.. I have Serval high qualifications in sound and sound engineering, not including my musical qualifications and experience.. I’m not claiming to know everything and my maths and physics isn’t the best. But I’m no idiot!!!.. I have experience with a lot of Different sound systems in a lot of different situations.... I build valve amplifiers for guitarist and service vintage gear..
I joined this forum for advice from people who have built speakers and know how different types sound in the real world.. spec sheets and graphics I find pretty useless, the real test and answers come from your ears and nothing else... I don’t have any experience building the types of speaker cabs mentioned ( horns etc ) but guitar cabinets yes. .
I made the move to active speakers because I was sick and tired of carrying around the racks of very heavy amps , x overs / 31 band eq’s . I have a few serious health issue meaning I can not lift anything.. so it falls on my band to move gear, they don’t understand how any of it works so it falls on me to do everything, and they don’t have an interest in learning either. also we have a Mercedes sprinter style van that’s already extremely full. So space is an Issue there too
And although I do play big gigs , I also have to make a living playing smaller ones where space is an issue. Yet no wanting to compromise on sound quality.
I don’t think you have a clue what it’s like for a gigging music, especially I the uk. How difficult every single venue is, if not the venue, the person running it.... often I have to clear the area before I can even start.. I’m lucky to have 45 to an hour to set the entire band up.. we never get a sound check unless it’s a bigger gig. Especially as the band travels together and although some of us are full Time musicians, other tech, and work so there’s no leaving 4 hours early just to get up the PA, plus venues would never put up with that..
Musicians in the uk are treated like absolute dirt. And from my experience as an engineer and fellow engineers I know. The people doing the sound and setting stuff up and treated even worse than the musicians. . 99% of the time I know absolutely nothing about the venue I’m going into until I get there, and every single time I’m lucky to get a single double 230v socket to run ABSOLUTELY everything !!!!.. let me restate that.. a Single socket to power 3 guitar amps, a pedalboard, a wireless syestem . A bass amp . 8 lights . 4 stage monitors. 4 FOH speakers. The mixing desk... and that’s just the bare minimum!!! It dosnt happen that often these days but it still dose.
These places are not set up for bands or sound in any way shape or form.. obviously the venues that are are brilliant. But most are not.. even the dedicated music venues and clubs are in pretty much the same sate , just with a stage and lights..
I’ve even have to plug everything into a single 10amp plug socket that was connected to the light socket instead of a bulb !!!! And that was when I was using amp racks too !!
So thank you for any help you’ve given, but what was a simple question about 2 types of sub boxes I’ve never heard as become a completely different thing.!! Witch has happen every time I’ve asked a question on this forum..
And as for asking experts about rigs.... every time I’ve done that, witch is the last 4 pa rigs I’ve had, they’ve never been anything better than what I had already. I’ve lost thousands buying gear recommend to me by independent industry experts that I’m not going to get back.. and believe me I can NOT afford it.. I put myself into massive debt every single time... and this isn’t because I want some flash thing to show off about.. it’s because I love music and what I do, and I want to give the people who come to see my band the best experience possible. And having a good sound get you more work.. I’m still paying off the Bose rig I couldn’t afford that was recommended to me that’s not powerful enough for what I do... I was sceptical at the time and I should have trusted my gut in the first place..now I’m 5k out of pocket and struggling to afford the guitar strings I need to be able to make music an earn money to pay off the Bose rig.. I don’t know if you understand how much money a professional gigging musician makes In the uk, but it’s **** all.. ON average £300 split between 4 people , that’s without fuel getting there, food, advertising etc etc etc , and at the moment I struggle to get 3-4 gigs a week.. I’ve actually have 6 weeks of nothing because a tour fell though...
So thanks a lot just the advice I needed
Air is inherently non-linear. No speaker will behave the same way at 100 watts as at one watt and I see no reason to use that fact against my stated goals. A Triode is also an inherently nonlinear device but the square law characteristics can be used to cancel out the distortion without large amounts of global negative feedback.
A bass reflex box is the worst case of "allowing" the nonlinear characteristics of air to compress, distort an dis-tune the design at higher power levels.
Yes. That is exactly why I avoid Helmholtz and BR ports like the plague.
It is much better to use two opposing nonlinear characteristics to cancel each one out for much lower total amounts of distortion.
I can not see what's wrong with that?!?
Is it wrong to use matched complimentary output transistors in an amp for some distortion cancellation?
hey what do know it's the same way in Canada and the situation has been that way for a long time to the point some club owner's think the pay scale from the 1960's is way too much money!!
ditto...
i understand your desire and motivation and hope you find an adequate solution/workaround.
true - an equalized reflex would be simple, could be made to switch between 4th and 6th order operation. Here's 4dB boost with 110 liter. Might make it a bit smaller and move the highpass filter up a few Hz.
That's a pretty decent design. Sure, there's a 4dB boost required to flatten the response, but it's at 31 Hz - not much music goes that low. And for use in smaller rooms you can just turn the boost off. Vent area is slightly small for a pro audio 18 subwoofer, but again it is tuned low. What does the calculated particle velocity look like?
The ODTL design I posted is 2.5dB more sensitive at the low end of the passband, but it's a larger box that only goes down to 40 Hz. At 600 cm^2 of vent area though, it's not going to choke at higher SPL levels.
Not really that much different here in the US really. One outlet the whole bit. My band lost power one time because the bar turned on the fryer...
Bands are pretty rare nowadays expect for big gigs. These bands are tribute bands and everyone is totally pro, look similar, and very good. Big gigs here usually provide sound but are limited to festivals and special events. Bars/clubs don't use bands anymore. For a working musician I say ditch the band thing and go solo or duo acoustic and/or DJ. I have a good friend and fellow bandmate that is doing the acoustic thing and it is going really well for him. Strangely cooincidental is that his live rig is the Bose one and he is well known for his sound. If you simply must do the band get the drummer on a edrum kit or cajon and keep the volume low and gear small. The Bose would work well. Also many musician friends teach and give lessons that helps supplement income. Good luck!
Yes, that absolutely confirms why you need something the renters and stage techs got - experience! I did in no way say you're an idiot but you got huge gaps in practical experience because you did a lot but with completly different situations. And you're now upset because I mentioned it. You asked the forum what is better and if you'd actually had set up the PAs over that period of time, you'd know yourself. You simply did other things. You cannot replace experience. No, it's not a shame to don't know something. But it is to get angry because someone noticed it. I try to help you fill the gaps. Go out there and learn from the experience of others. Yes, 'primitive' renters got that experience even if you're probably qualified higher. Again: You cannot replace experience.
And for the points I've listed: That's not a list for idiots, that's the checklist what has to be covered and you simply have to start at the basics. You think you're above that? Yes, maybe. But maybe there are some things you still need to learn. Very important i.e. to make a setup for the DSP and why most venues need different settings. Or how dB works, if you did, you would have known how much more power you'd need. I made that list to make sure you realize even 'primitive' steps are very important and you have to document them for others who don't know what you've found to be a certainty.
And that's exactly why you should go to an audio tech workshop or let a renter show you what they'd suggest. In the last 20 years a lot changed. You don't have x overs and 31 band EQs anymore and amp racks nowadays weight ~40kg, not 150 anymore. Why? That's what changed, DSP, class D, digital mixers are a thing, often not even a multicore is there anymore.
You want to go active? That's fine but that goto problems too, which you clearly showed not to be aware of at the moment. And you still have to learn how a DSP works and how to create a setup for every venue and how to chose the dimensions (i.e. number of subs etc).
You have 3 options now:
1. Rant and don't take any experience from others. (Don't post in forums then though)
2. Learn that things have changed and that nobody can know it all, even if xx years experience are on the paper. You don't have to make every single mistake yourself.
3. Let someone else do it.
Well, that's the thing: You ask if you should use a cup or a water glass and you didn't like the answer it's better to fix the leak in the roof instead. And then complaining nobody's talking about the cup or glass.
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