I'm looking to make a batch of stage wedges primary concerns:
1) Output
2) Fidelity
3) Driver cost (disqualifies things like the BMS triax)
4) Driver durability (3" coil or more ideal)
So far the B&C 15fhx76 seems to be a good comprimise: 15FHX76 Coaxials - B&C Speakers
I am quite attacted to the drivers that use a seperate horn to the cone for more narrow coverage and to avoid the cone modulating the HF. I could be wrong about a 60x40 coverage been desirable for a wedge though? Non of the 15" coax drivers I have seen are especialy Hi-Fi with frequency response annomlies around the crossover frequency right in the midband of human hearing. The wedges will be activly processed.
1) Output
2) Fidelity
3) Driver cost (disqualifies things like the BMS triax)
4) Driver durability (3" coil or more ideal)
So far the B&C 15fhx76 seems to be a good comprimise: 15FHX76 Coaxials - B&C Speakers
I am quite attacted to the drivers that use a seperate horn to the cone for more narrow coverage and to avoid the cone modulating the HF. I could be wrong about a 60x40 coverage been desirable for a wedge though? Non of the 15" coax drivers I have seen are especialy Hi-Fi with frequency response annomlies around the crossover frequency right in the midband of human hearing. The wedges will be activly processed.
Hi,
That sound great. I'm not sure about a 60x40 for wedge.
I was used to 90* (Eminence 12") when i still performed as a musician and found them ok within this use. No issues regarding modulation of mid/highs i can remember of.
Never had issues with ( mic) bleeding when i used 12" wedge ( 90*) as technician on stage ( Bms, Eminence, probably other brands too) never had a musician to complain either ( quite the opposite in fact as musician favor the well defined area of 'good sound', no lobing).
I must say i'm not bothered ( this much) by the issues coax have at xover if it is low enough in freq ( around 1k/1,5khz) neither by the ragged high end ( which isn't this an issue in real life imho. They sound more diffuse than horn or tweet but it's usually not an issue, rather a preference thing).
Volt have 15" with separated 'waveguide' at 60x40 but they were not cheap though iirc.
That sound great. I'm not sure about a 60x40 for wedge.
I was used to 90* (Eminence 12") when i still performed as a musician and found them ok within this use. No issues regarding modulation of mid/highs i can remember of.
Never had issues with ( mic) bleeding when i used 12" wedge ( 90*) as technician on stage ( Bms, Eminence, probably other brands too) never had a musician to complain either ( quite the opposite in fact as musician favor the well defined area of 'good sound', no lobing).
I must say i'm not bothered ( this much) by the issues coax have at xover if it is low enough in freq ( around 1k/1,5khz) neither by the ragged high end ( which isn't this an issue in real life imho. They sound more diffuse than horn or tweet but it's usually not an issue, rather a preference thing).
Volt have 15" with separated 'waveguide' at 60x40 but they were not cheap though iirc.
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cool so going for ~90 degree dispersion the cone version of the same driver looks good:
15FCX76 Coaxials - B&C Speakers
This Ciare driver looked very cool (4" coils) but its discontinued:
CIARE ITALIAN SPEAKERS - PRO AUDIO B2B: NDCX 15-2-1 COAXIAL
I'm keen on high SPL capability form the driver because a lot of musicians are partially deaf or you have situations like in drum monitoring where the monitor needs to be heard over a drum kit (hopefully the drummer is wearing hearing protection....). I did consider making a 3 way with a smaller diameter coax but the overall cost becomes high and the monitor too large, the 15" drivers seem a bit comprimised but the best value for the output capability in a compact box.
15FCX76 Coaxials - B&C Speakers
This Ciare driver looked very cool (4" coils) but its discontinued:
CIARE ITALIAN SPEAKERS - PRO AUDIO B2B: NDCX 15-2-1 COAXIAL
I'm keen on high SPL capability form the driver because a lot of musicians are partially deaf or you have situations like in drum monitoring where the monitor needs to be heard over a drum kit (hopefully the drummer is wearing hearing protection....). I did consider making a 3 way with a smaller diameter coax but the overall cost becomes high and the monitor too large, the 15" drivers seem a bit comprimised but the best value for the output capability in a compact box.
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Kipman,
Don't you have possibility to try both type (separate waveguide/membrane as waveguide)?
I mean if you have a box ( sealed) with dsp you could make a direct comparison of both B&C and see the one you prefer?
Maybe it isn't easy at the moment regarding global situation?
You seems to have entries with other sound crews so maybe they could help, there is always some live audio engineer within them and they usually know were to borrow or rent some dedicated reference?
I agree about your own observation. Anyway you usually don't need this much spl on low register on stage: bass amp and drummer are usually way too much...
The reason why brands don't usually bother his much about low extension, rather higher efficiency.
Don't you have possibility to try both type (separate waveguide/membrane as waveguide)?
I mean if you have a box ( sealed) with dsp you could make a direct comparison of both B&C and see the one you prefer?
Maybe it isn't easy at the moment regarding global situation?
You seems to have entries with other sound crews so maybe they could help, there is always some live audio engineer within them and they usually know were to borrow or rent some dedicated reference?
I agree about your own observation. Anyway you usually don't need this much spl on low register on stage: bass amp and drummer are usually way too much...
The reason why brands don't usually bother his much about low extension, rather higher efficiency.
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We could buy both types to try, I think we are making 8 at least so the extra expense of buying and reselling a driver isn't prohibitive.
We run the drum monitor with a dedicated subwoofer or two. Going for 15" over 12" does only seem to gain low end perfomance with B&C as it looks like the same magnet structure is available on a 12" cone: 12CXN76 Coaxials - B&C Speakers
however my freinds rearly want good low end as they find monitors like the D&B MAX15 are a lot nicer as a musician than 12" monitors due to the extra low end capability.
In England we have no covid restrictions since July and we have provided sound for quite a few events. I'm very glad to live here at the moment.
We run the drum monitor with a dedicated subwoofer or two. Going for 15" over 12" does only seem to gain low end perfomance with B&C as it looks like the same magnet structure is available on a 12" cone: 12CXN76 Coaxials - B&C Speakers
however my freinds rearly want good low end as they find monitors like the D&B MAX15 are a lot nicer as a musician than 12" monitors due to the extra low end capability.
In England we have no covid restrictions since July and we have provided sound for quite a few events. I'm very glad to live here at the moment.
In the pro world, D&B's M4 and L'Acoustics' X15 HiQ are among the most widely accepted wedges, and both use narrow pattern (custom) variants on the B&C coaxes, FWIW.
A couple of recent threads over at the LAB:
Rider friendly wedges...
Coax Wedges?
Basically, if you're ever likely to use more than one wedge per performer, or have a whole line across the stage such as at festivals, then being able to minimise spill from one wedge into the coverage of the next one usually trumps the slightly smoother response you may get from the non-horned version of the drivers.
A couple of recent threads over at the LAB:
Rider friendly wedges...
Coax Wedges?
Basically, if you're ever likely to use more than one wedge per performer, or have a whole line across the stage such as at festivals, then being able to minimise spill from one wedge into the coverage of the next one usually trumps the slightly smoother response you may get from the non-horned version of the drivers.
The line has the advantage David Morrison gave: when you travel perpendicular to the stage the sound remain the same everywhere ( where more narrow directivity is an advantage). But it is a compromise as the mix can't be adapted to each musician of course.
I'm surprised the L acoustic to be of the Tannoy kind: they should cross in the vicinity of 1,8khz ( if the target is 60*).
This is my main complaint about narrow directivity without protubering wg: they x higher in freq range ( a 15" at 90* you can expect around 1khz).
Kipman which kind of bands ( number of players and style) and stage you target?
Martin have some very interesting drivers too. Ro808 pointed to them in Camplo's thread. I don't know if they are availlable to customers however.
I'm surprised the L acoustic to be of the Tannoy kind: they should cross in the vicinity of 1,8khz ( if the target is 60*).
This is my main complaint about narrow directivity without protubering wg: they x higher in freq range ( a 15" at 90* you can expect around 1khz).
Kipman which kind of bands ( number of players and style) and stage you target?
Martin have some very interesting drivers too. Ro808 pointed to them in Camplo's thread. I don't know if they are availlable to customers however.
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Depends on the act.
If you have an act that is say, a star vocalist with either tracks (as many pop acts or rappers) or a backing band who are not the star themselves &thus commonly parked well upstage, you can just chuck the same mix in all of them and you know you've got consistency wherever the artist moves left to right across the stage.
On the other hand, if you do have them wired so that you can send a unique mix to each one (or, commonly, pair them up per mix), then regardless of the lineup of each successive act, you can get the right mix to the right part of the frontline without having to move things around or re-cable them - just pick the relevant wedge/pair nearest where each muso is standing and send their mix there.
A few thoughts:
- Which 12"s were compared against the D&B Max15? - You might find that a 12" at a similar price point will provide plenty of output, but a cheap 12" will certainly be demolished.
- You don't necessarily want lots of LF extension from the monitors. The lower you go, the more you're interfering with the FOH mix.
- I tend to go L/C/R/drums as standard monitor positions. It does fine for small/medium festival stages.
- I'm also at a point where my monitor system needs an overhaul. I'm currently deciding between Faital Pro units: 10HX230* and the 12HX500. The latter has a large-format compression driver, the frequency response curves look excellent, and the 12" cone has plenty of Xmax.
* I have a pair of main speakers using those. They're great, and get very loud for the size.
- I'm not sure the woofer-as-a-waveguide is a huge problem in use. The relatively small (couple of dB at the VHF) frequency response changes from the changing woofer position are IMO inconsequential in the midst of live sound. The edge diffraction from a horn without a baffle is the alternative, but I'm not convinced it's superior.
CHris
- Which 12"s were compared against the D&B Max15? - You might find that a 12" at a similar price point will provide plenty of output, but a cheap 12" will certainly be demolished.
- You don't necessarily want lots of LF extension from the monitors. The lower you go, the more you're interfering with the FOH mix.
- I tend to go L/C/R/drums as standard monitor positions. It does fine for small/medium festival stages.
- I'm also at a point where my monitor system needs an overhaul. I'm currently deciding between Faital Pro units: 10HX230* and the 12HX500. The latter has a large-format compression driver, the frequency response curves look excellent, and the 12" cone has plenty of Xmax.
* I have a pair of main speakers using those. They're great, and get very loud for the size.
- I'm not sure the woofer-as-a-waveguide is a huge problem in use. The relatively small (couple of dB at the VHF) frequency response changes from the changing woofer position are IMO inconsequential in the midst of live sound. The edge diffraction from a horn without a baffle is the alternative, but I'm not convinced it's superior.
CHris
here's my vote (as i've worked with these and am impressed)
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...5B-data_sheet_030918.pdf?v=1565201043<p> </p>
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...5B-data_sheet_030918.pdf?v=1565201043<p> </p>
I have a side question regarding those B&C coaxials. Please pardon me!
I see in the datasheets that both VC's nealrx are of the same diameter with a difference of just one millimeter. Does that mean both are in the same magnet gap? This would need a very powerful magnet to have sufficient magnetic induction within the gap?!?
Best regards!
I see in the datasheets that both VC's nealrx are of the same diameter with a difference of just one millimeter. Does that mean both are in the same magnet gap? This would need a very powerful magnet to have sufficient magnetic induction within the gap?!?
Best regards!
Thanks for the good ideas, the Faitals do look 'more hi-fi' from their data sheet than the B&C. I think ideally we would have a 60*60 dispersion but this is unavailable so we will go with a 15" cone coax which gives 80-90 degree conical. The 5215B looks great but is almost 2x the price of B&C. The main motivation for the 15" driver is (after some discussion) to have more of the kick coming through the monitor, so we really want to be -6dB @ 55Hz or better.
FWIW, Altec's (once) popular 1230 stage monitor used a specially modded 605 with a 90 deg conical pattern.
I don't have an absolutely 'like-for-like' comparison, but I first got interested in low profile coax wedges a while ago, and bought some DB technologies FM12s They use a ferrite 12" coax with a horn-style HF section. Despite being biamped and having a factory-designed dsp crossover that presumably shouldn't have been too hard to get right (see below), it had measurable and audible anomalies at around (IIRC) 1.1K, which was far enough below the crossover that I always assumed it was caused by reflections between the cone and horn. You definitely couldn't EQ it away.
For that and other reasons, I moved on to the horn-less Radian 'microwedge' style coaxes, which I have in 12" and 15" sizes (the Apex 1200 and 1500). The 15" sounds a bit better to me, but I like them both. I think they're described as nominally 90 degree coverage. They have kept my clients very happy, including some that are notoriously persnickety.
I ripped out their unreliable crossovers and their even more unreliable passive/active switches, and it took all of 5 minutes to get a dsp crossover program worked out that yielded nearly perfect amplitude and great phase that holds up pretty well for +/- 15 or 20 degrees. Great GBF (incredible, actually) when I've needed it, but mostly I (and the talent) have liked the SQ.
Admittedly the DB FM12s (and their drivers) were MI-grade toys compared to the Radians, so it very well might not be a fair comparison, but based on how easy it was to get smooth midrange out of the Radians, I am now somewhat leery of coax drivers with HF horns that completely blot out one's view of the woofer. Only one data point, though.
I would wholeheartedly recommend the Radians, with some caveats. 1) The ferrite 5312 and especially the 5215 drivers are ludicrously heavy, and somewhat expensive. The 12" drivers were known to suffer cone failures if they were beaten on for extended periods. I've seen (but not caused) the cone failures, so I know those fears are not groundless. I can't imagine what kind of levels it took to make it happen, though.
The weight was killing me, so I reloaded the cabs with the neo versions of the drivers. The 5312NEO and 5215NEO (both with Aluminium HF diaphragms) are delightfully light, and very robust. They sound a bit different (but still great), and the 12" seems to have a new/different cone design that presumably was a response to the old model's tendency to develop stress fractures. The downside is that they are a bit expensive (the 5312NEO lists for $1160 on Radian's site, and sells for ca. $700 at USSpeaker). If you really want to spend some money, they're both available with Be HF diaphragms ($1150 for the 12" BeNeo at USSpeaker). I'm not sure you can get that anywhere else in a Coax?
The B&C 12CXN76 is less expensive, but the seemingly more equivalent 12CXN88 is roughly the same price as the Radian 5312Neo, at least at USSpeaker. I'm unlikely to buy either B&C on a whim just to A/B it. Anyone ever work with both, or see a good enough set of measurements to know if the B&C or Faitals have something special to offer vs. the Radians? The Faital 12HX500 does seem to have a pretty (suspiciously?) smooth and extended HF response and lots of overlap with the woofer....
BTW, the Fe versions of the Radians, along with some factory-fresh passive crossovers, are still on the shelf if anyone in the US with a good back but a light wallet is interested.
For that and other reasons, I moved on to the horn-less Radian 'microwedge' style coaxes, which I have in 12" and 15" sizes (the Apex 1200 and 1500). The 15" sounds a bit better to me, but I like them both. I think they're described as nominally 90 degree coverage. They have kept my clients very happy, including some that are notoriously persnickety.
I ripped out their unreliable crossovers and their even more unreliable passive/active switches, and it took all of 5 minutes to get a dsp crossover program worked out that yielded nearly perfect amplitude and great phase that holds up pretty well for +/- 15 or 20 degrees. Great GBF (incredible, actually) when I've needed it, but mostly I (and the talent) have liked the SQ.
Admittedly the DB FM12s (and their drivers) were MI-grade toys compared to the Radians, so it very well might not be a fair comparison, but based on how easy it was to get smooth midrange out of the Radians, I am now somewhat leery of coax drivers with HF horns that completely blot out one's view of the woofer. Only one data point, though.
I would wholeheartedly recommend the Radians, with some caveats. 1) The ferrite 5312 and especially the 5215 drivers are ludicrously heavy, and somewhat expensive. The 12" drivers were known to suffer cone failures if they were beaten on for extended periods. I've seen (but not caused) the cone failures, so I know those fears are not groundless. I can't imagine what kind of levels it took to make it happen, though.
The weight was killing me, so I reloaded the cabs with the neo versions of the drivers. The 5312NEO and 5215NEO (both with Aluminium HF diaphragms) are delightfully light, and very robust. They sound a bit different (but still great), and the 12" seems to have a new/different cone design that presumably was a response to the old model's tendency to develop stress fractures. The downside is that they are a bit expensive (the 5312NEO lists for $1160 on Radian's site, and sells for ca. $700 at USSpeaker). If you really want to spend some money, they're both available with Be HF diaphragms ($1150 for the 12" BeNeo at USSpeaker). I'm not sure you can get that anywhere else in a Coax?
The B&C 12CXN76 is less expensive, but the seemingly more equivalent 12CXN88 is roughly the same price as the Radian 5312Neo, at least at USSpeaker. I'm unlikely to buy either B&C on a whim just to A/B it. Anyone ever work with both, or see a good enough set of measurements to know if the B&C or Faitals have something special to offer vs. the Radians? The Faital 12HX500 does seem to have a pretty (suspiciously?) smooth and extended HF response and lots of overlap with the woofer....
BTW, the Fe versions of the Radians, along with some factory-fresh passive crossovers, are still on the shelf if anyone in the US with a good back but a light wallet is interested.
Forgot to post that the Altec 'wedge' cab had 30, 50 deg sides as well as the obvious 90 deg.